Kokonoe or Brokonoe?

[Solless]

I'm actually not looking forward to another version of the game, as I feel like it's very close to where it needs to be.

But I dunno, another version would make me sad

Maybe for once ASW will do a sensible thing and just put out a balance patch for the cast, or at least (some of!) the console characters. Kagura seems the most fine of the 3, but I think Terumi and Brokonoe needs a bit of tweaking.

Why do most of you guys welcome new versions/releases/revisions so complacently and easily? How do you do that? :\

Do you love spending money? Some people can't keep up and is part of the reason people lose interest. I'd be pissed if this is the way it gets handled, which of course will happen but I hope not too soon.

For some reason I feel that should be more directed at Netherrealm Studios than ASW...Oh yeah, 2 "complete" editions 1 year after original release that includes all the DLC that other people have already paid for in the game. Money grubbers, f you Boon.

[Master Of Chaos]

Maybe for once ASW will do a sensible thing and just put out a balance patch for the cast, or at least (some of!) the console characters. Kagura seems the most fine of the 3, but I think Terumi and Brokonoe needs a bit of tweaking.

Terumi needs buffs, if anything. Kokonoe...Needs a lot of nerfs.

[PozerWolf]

Honestly, I'm fine when it comes to updates and balance changes.

However, when they happen to often, that gets annoying.

But, the only thing that worries me is how Arcsys balance their games. Every time they "balance" their game, it's a goddamn coin toss.

"Character is top tier? Now he just sucks!" kinda of thing kills it for me. Why not take the Arcana Heart path, and just tone up low tiers and leave top tiers alone

[TD]

Why do most of you guys welcome new versions/releases/revisions so complacently and easily? How do you do that? :\ Do you love spending money? Some people can't keep up and is part of the reason people lose interest. I'd be pissed if this is the way it gets handled, which of course will happen but I hope not too soon.

so long as rachel is in the game, asw can have all of my money. otherwise patches are just patches. and anyway they come once a year or two for bb, and they come right on time in most cases, pacifying those irritated at this and upset at that.

[Errol]

Honestly, I'm fine when it comes to updates and balance changes.

However, when they happen to often, that gets annoying.

But, the only thing that worries me is how Arcsys balance their games. Every time they "balance" their game, it's a goddamn coin toss.

"Character is top tier? Now he just sucks!" kinda of thing kills it for me. Why not take the Arcana Heart path, and just tone up low tiers and leave top tiers alone

It's because they don't balance their games, IMO.

They make a new game.

They try to make sure each character has satisfying gameplay.

Try to change characters up so people are doing new things so they don't lose interest

Some balancing internally

Release the game

and repeat. They do pretty good for balance on day 1. But they never move past day 1. They just make a new game.

also, I don't think S -> C is prevalent really in BB. You saw that from CT to CS, and for Makoto.. but really tier standings are pretty consistent in this series. So you're safe picking valkenhayn or hazama, and if you play tsubaki or makoto, don't hold your breath waiting to be S or even A..... and just pick a good character.

Also I have already played this game more than enough for the price. I'd like to have a patch too, but we just don't know if that will happen...

[TheBossGiga]

I say ban the bitch. she makes even ct top tier look only decent she's too good at everything fuck her and Ban her please.

[WintySoSolo]

The tradition of banning console exclusive characters exists for good reason. I'd greatly prefer we keep it that way. Especially in regards to DLC characters.

Back in CS, i went to a tournament. I played strictly on XBL back then, and the tournament was, of course, run on PS3. Which meant I had to go up against wolfman. A character that not only I didn't have, but I was completely unable to have played against due to the circumstances at the time. Not fun!

Obviously that same situation isn't happening again, but when it comes to DLC characters, there are people who cannot lab against them because they don't have them.

Someone tells me certain bullet relaunches don't work on Terumi and Hazama. I try the ones I use on hazama and see they work fine. I can't try them against terumi. Real suck.

I can't lab against kokonoe to find and practice good punishes to her teleport or superball. Not without paying the DLC cost, which in the current state of things would require paying extra in order to get PSN point codes from third party websites. I don't even want to play these characters, I just want to practice against them. I shouldn't have to do that. Putting up with them on netplay is one thing, but when I think about going to tournaments and that these characters are allowed, I sort of don't want to do it. I'm a little bitch, yes, but regardless of how stupid the character is, or what answers may or may not exist for her, I simply cannot practice them on my own time without having to pay extra.

Allowing these characters like this is stupid for this reason, not for whatever balance reasons exist.

Back in the days of Soul Calibur 2, the console exclusive characters were banned for the same reason - people didn't know what they did unless they owned all copies of the game across all 3 systems. Which was a dumb expectation. I see no reason why we should allow them now, because if you want to be fully prepared for these characters, you're going to have to pay up in order to unlock them.

I don't think a player community should support that kind of thing. At all. It's dumb. If I wanted that shit I'd be playing shitty online p2w games.

[BloodWolF]

Kokonoe...let's see. I don't agree with banning her, personally. Playing Nu, I'm on the long list that gets to eat unblockables and I have a really hard time with character regardless if those even come to fruition (which they usually do). Her normals are fantastic (AA, multihit air attacks, OH, etc.), but I've only felt them from a Nu perspective, so I can't say her normal pressure presents much more of a blockfest than fighting a Valk or Tao. Her tools at every range of the screen are pretty devastating as well. All of this makes her a crazy hard fight, but it's a fight that EVERYONE has access to. Yes, some of us haven't DLed her due to financial reasons, but she IS available. Unlike console specific characters mentioned in previous posts (SC2, etc.), she isn't limited to ONE console, she's on the same console for everyone and everyone has access to said console. She's not in the arcades, but Japan has a plethora of PS3s in the book-offs throughout the country that are accessible.

I have seen major tournaments and they don't end with a Kokofest in top 8. Those people are getting around her gimmicks, so it's more than possible. I'm not saying that the rest of us don't have to work harder for the win, but I think we're better for it. I have heard that some Japanese tournaments have banned the blackhole itself, but I have yet to check the sources on that. If that's the case, then I'm sure Arc has gotten the message about the abilities on her and if we get a patch or another version down the line, it'll be addressed. Until then, I'm for keeping her in.....even if it makes me want to strangle someone playing her.

And to the user complaining about spending money on new versions every year. They're usually 40 dollars every 1-2 years. After the launch game, dlc, and a patch, that's ~120 dollars for more than a year. 10 dollars a month is MORE than a great deal for those who play this game often and getting as much enjoyment as this for that money is better than most entertainment expenditures. I'd gladly give some money to the companies that make games I enjoy when I can afford it. I enjoy their products..even with the minor flaws.

Anyways, that's my..more than 2 cents worth on the subject.

[mAc Chaos]

If you think getting new copies of BB is bad look at CoD.

[tataki]

Why do most of you guys welcome new versions/releases/revisions so complacently and easily? How do you do that? :\

Because videogames evolve and get better, or maybe you want to stick with BBCT?

For some reason I feel that should be more directed at Netherrealm Studios than ASW...Oh yeah, 2 "complete" editions 1 year after original release that includes all the DLC that other people have already paid for in the game. Money grubbers, f you Boon.

So by giving you a discount one is being a money grubber?

You guys are too cheap if you think *fighting games* are screwing you over. How about actual pay to win games like Magic the Gathering and LoL? Those models are way more successful despite shitting on the concept of fair competition, and you should be glad fighting games keep their competitive integrity.

[Solless]

So by giving you a discount one is being a money grubber?

You guys are too cheap if you think *fighting games* are screwing you over. How about actual pay to win games like Magic the Gathering and LoL? Those models are way more successful despite shitting on the concept of fair competition, and you should be glad fighting games keep their competitive integrity.

Oh yeah, 2 "complete" editions 1 year after original release that includes all the DLC that other people have already paid for in the game. That was being my main point. Discounts are one thing, but one year after release with all DLC that on their own release were between $2-5 depending on the items in question, that are never at discounts, at a similar to slightly lower price tag than the original game is kind of a like a "F you as thanks to those for buying from us in between our first release and now".

However, I believe we're getting off topic now.

[tataki]

You paid full price to get it one year in advance. Let's say Xrd comes out tomorrow for 60$ and you know that a year from now it will cost 20$. Are you going to wait a whole year while watching us enjoying the game and get better at it? Or maybe you'll understand that you are paying to get the game right here and now, and be glad that a year later, a lower price tag will be able to attract new people who would have been hesitant to try the game otherwise.

[Rhannmah]

How about actual pay to win games like [...] LoL?

Hey now, i'm no LoL advocate but LoL's business model is as non-pay-to-win as a free game can get. Paying money only gives you access to cosmetic changes and accelerants for stuff you can get for free by investing more time in the game.

To be on topic though, I think regular updates are good, but not something so frequent that players don't have time to learn and adapt to a matchup. Speaking of which, patches should be put out whenever something blatantly broken comes up, now that even arcades are connected to the net. To stir up the discussion a little, what should be nerfed on Kokonoe? What needs to stay?

[RifleAvenger]

Speaking of which, patches should be put out whenever something blatantly broken comes up, now that even arcades are connected to the net. To stir up the discussion a little, what should be nerfed on Kokonoe? What needs to stay?

Black hole obviously needs to go. Make it an unlimited only super; If it becomes blockable I don't see any use for it aside from a weird combo extender.

Her defensive options need to be nerfed. Give super-balls enough start up to remove them as a reversal option, and make it so that the ball disappears if she is hit (I know you can beat it easily by counter grabbing her to abuse grab-invul frames, but I think if normal ball vanishes on hit super should too). I think teleport should be 1f invul only if graviton is placed, to reward proper use of her mechanic, but remove it as an easy way out of the corner otherwise. Backdash may need to be somewhat reduced, but good backdashes seem to be a thing for Sector-7 characters (then again, Tager and Azrael arguably need those gdlk backdashes much more than Koko does). Doing all that will bring her more in line with high-offense, poor defense characters like Rachel and Carl.

Her damage needs to be decreased, somehow. I kind of like her actual combo routes right now, so I'd rather just see the damage or damage scaling on her adjusted. Some of her moves just do obscene base damage.

More things could be changed as well, the problem is I actually LIKE a lot of her other aspects, so I'm a bit too biased to touch on those (like the amount of screen control just placing 22B gives her against some characters).

[PozerWolf]

What I find odd is, I actually don't mind Black Hole.

It's like a brain dead version of Eddie's unblockable setup. Problem with Black hole is, getting 7.8k no meter is... a bit much.

[TheArm05]

I don't think Black Hole NEEDS to be removed. It certainly should be toned down significantly. Remove the invuln on it and massively reduce the p1 (wtf 120% reverse proration?). This way she could use it for oki still or as a special way to open people up who block her fireball but it would lose to counter assaults and if mistimed reversals.

I also don't think you need to double shit on Super Ball. Either make it go away on hit or take away the startup invuln. Having both makes this move retarded, just one is reasonable. It should also disappear on its own much more quickly.

I think that the most overpowered part about this character above all is her Graviton and its meter. The meter depletes absurdly slowly and activating it doesn't use up much meter at all. I think the meter should go down MUCH faster and activating should empty the entire bar. Lock her out of its use for a couple seconds after but have the meter recharge more quickly. As of now Kokonoe barely has to even think about using this move and it just gives SO much screen control and ability to confirm combos. This change would mean she has to actively decide if she wants to use it for zoning or combo damage, and it would allow really good players to position it smartly to allow her to do both.

Personally I hate the idea of a frame 1 invuln teleport but it really isn't that bad once you learn to play around it. I could also make a decently long list of other moves I consider too strong (her 6A especially) but honestly just nerfing the hell out of graviton would go a loooong way to bringing her in line with the rest of the cast.

[Myoro]

Black hole should be a combo finishing Distortion, like Carnage Scissors, or Vol Tedo. It could make a hard crunch noise and do a hard knockdown.

Also TheArm05 for President of ArcSys

[LegendaryRath]

To stir up the discussion a little, what should be nerfed on Kokonoe? What needs to stay?

I have more than my fair share of experience against her already, having around several hundred matches with strong, knowledgeable Kokonoes. While yes, she has far too much potential for damage, it isn't her main issue imo. As a character, Koko is basically a much better Rachel. She completely controls neutral with graviton, Fireballs, and proximity traps that all allow free safe pressure on hit or block. This isn't even taking into account her amazing set of normals, many of which happen to low profile even air to ground moves. Here's what I'd love to see changed.

-Graviton startup and activation lengthened.

-Graviton should disappear when she gets hit. It's quite common to get her in the corner, beat her up a bit, then have her teleport to the other end of the screen with a special which has invul on the first frame.

-Super Dawn (or super ball lol) Should probably go away if you hit her. Many characters are unable to punish her safely and wind up giving her free pressure. Quite a turnaround considering it's basically a guaranteed out + free invisible pressure for 50 meter. One solution to this might be to increase her recovery from the move and allow her to be counterhit with throws (which the animation would invul through the ball).

-Black Hole is a serious problem. I play one of the few characters that escapes it for free most of the time, but that doesn't make it OK. Koko can blackhole on reaction to the opponent blocking fireballs, so even Azrael isn't safe sometimes.

-Damage might need a tone down. Honestly I'm ok with it since most Kokos don't know combos. Wait til people do this or this or these as their BNBs. I'm too lazy to really find much to post for combos, but it's obvious that her potential for damage is hilarious. I don't play her myself so I can't say if damage itself, proration, or minimum histstun are the issues.

I hate that she's in the game and I feel the game is worse now that she's in it, but it's still hard to justify a ban imo. Without a very specific, enforceable reason for banning a character, that will also be enforced in all future cases of said description, we just can't do it. Simply saying "she's too powerful. She's broken. She's too good." isn't enough. We can't define things like that because they're just opinions (even if they're most peoples' opinions). Banning console exclusive characters would have been completely justifiable at launch, but right now it would be unfair to those players who have been given time with them and have the expectation to be able to use them in tournaments. This isn't even 10% of what's involved here, but I'm sure you guys can see how complicated this sort of thing can get.

The tradition of banning console exclusive characters exists for good reason. I'd greatly prefer we keep it that way. Especially in regards to DLC characters.

Back in CS, i went to a tournament. I played strictly on XBL back then, and the tournament was, of course, run on PS3. Which meant I had to go up against wolfman. A character that not only I didn't have, but I was completely unable to have played against due to the circumstances at the time. Not fun!

Obviously that same situation isn't happening again, but when it comes to DLC characters, there are people who cannot lab against them because they don't have them.

Someone tells me certain bullet relaunches don't work on Terumi and Hazama. I try the ones I use on hazama and see they work fine. I can't try them against terumi. Real suck.

I can't lab against kokonoe to find and practice good punishes to her teleport or superball. Not without paying the DLC cost, which in the current state of things would require paying extra in order to get PSN point codes from third party websites. I don't even want to play these characters, I just want to practice against them. I shouldn't have to do that. Putting up with them on netplay is one thing, but when I think about going to tournaments and that these characters are allowed, I sort of don't want to do it. I'm a little bitch, yes, but regardless of how stupid the character is, or what answers may or may not exist for her, I simply cannot practice them on my own time without having to pay extra.

Allowing these characters like this is stupid for this reason, not for whatever balance reasons exist.

Back in the days of Soul Calibur 2, the console exclusive characters were banned for the same reason - people didn't know what they did unless they owned all copies of the game across all 3 systems. Which was a dumb expectation. I see no reason why we should allow them now, because if you want to be fully prepared for these characters, you're going to have to pay up in order to unlock them.

I don't think a player community should support that kind of thing. At all. It's dumb. If I wanted that shit I'd be playing shitty online p2w games.

This is a great post.

[Kurushii]

If you try U-Kokonoe you'll see her midscreen options are actually nerfed. The j.C > j.6D > j.236D route which is used in almost every combo just doesn't connect. It has to be near corner to work. I really think ASW got some of her Unlimited frame data swapped with her Normal frame data. I haven't noticed any gained or lost gatlings in Unlimited but 3C has the hitstun value of what a CH 3C is for Normal. I expect her gatlings and aerial combo route to be the main thing she losses whenever she gets nerfed.

[Rhannmah]

I really think ASW got some of her Unlimited frame data swapped with her Normal frame data

That would be completely outrageous if that were true

[mAc Chaos]

They would've fixed it with the patch.

[Myoro]

Is that part in any of her challenge mode combos?

[Kurushii]

They would've fixed it with the patch.

I would think the same, but it's possible they don't have notes on what limitations they had set for the character. The programmer and combat designer at TGS didn't exactly show much of her abilities compared to what was figured out in the first few days of her release. After seeing past console exclusive characters from ASW they either lack good testers or fail at something else in the creation process. I know balancing a cast of characters isn't easy and gets harder as the cast grows but damn ASW always slips up on something with each version. I wish patches didn't cost so much for developers so they could really improve their titles. Can't wait to see how kusoge GGXrd is at launch.

[Kurushii]

Is that part in any of her challenge mode combos?

Only challenge 17 and it was used as an ender. They didn't ask the player to land, dash, and follow up into a longer combo.

[Myoro]

So they knew the link existed, perhaps not it's potential?