Kokonoe or Brokonoe?

[Maho]

I thought this was going to be an issue, having to manage gravitation, but playing real matches I've never had to worry about it even when landing those combos multiple times.

Combos don't use that much of the graviton meter indeed, but it can go down very quickly when you do setups and zoning, you can see Tsujikawa being unable to finish a combo because he ran out meter in the third match of the Online Godsgarden. I think it doesn't show that much for now because thanks to the damage she can deal, a lot of players don't use graviton that much outside of combos if not for doing things like 6D > 214A > 22C, as they don't really need it in order to be competitive.

So as for nerfing her, i'd like something that would force players to be creative with her drive to get results, instead of changing her into one more character that uses its drive mostly to get more damage in combos.

I thinks the biggest problem is that to many people don't know how to avoid Kokonoe

That's very true, for exemple I see a lot a players that clearly have no idea on how to escape the black hole even if their character can, which make some players go for not guaranteed black holes and get away with it when they should get punished hard for it. One of the thing I see a lot and that should not happen is Kokonoe players keeping the pressure after a blocked 3C, which is an uncancelable 2 hit at -1 on block, but like I heard one time "we don't need to work on the Kokonoe matchup, she'll be low tier in the next version", just waiting for Arc Sys to fix your problems isn't the only solution, you never know, maybe she'll end like Valk as an eternal S tier.

[fogelstrom]

One of the thing I see a lot and that should not happen is Kokonoe players keeping the pressure after a blocked 3C, which is an uncancelable 2 hit at -1 on block.

3C -1 is still in Kokonoe's advantage due to her moves.

5B avoids 2A. So now you have to use 5A to beat her out. But then she uses 2A wich is low profile so she get's CH. Also she can just backdash for free any day of the week. The biggest issue I have with this move is that her 2A is low profile. And they can just pick up on your habits of mashing 2A and use 5B to get CH bounce for good dmg. I never press anything after 3C anymore.

[Raiza57]

3C -1 is still in Kokonoe's advantage due to her moves.

5B avoids 2A. So now you have to use 5A to beat her out. But then she uses 2A wich is low profile so she get's CH. Also she can just backdash for free any day of the week. The biggest issue I have with this move is that her 2A is low profile. And they can just pick up on your habits of mashing 2A and use 5B to get CH bounce for good dmg. I never press anything after 3C anymore.

"Im not sure how true this is but, for most characters who have a low 2a(Bang, Carl, Izayoi, Bullet, Tao, Arakune, and Plat) their 5a hits on both standing and crouching opponents. With the exception of I believe Bullet and Izayoi who have other options besides 5a. Based on distance Kokonoe cannot use 5b because hers has no reach. So the only time this situation would ever happen is if a Kokonoe ran up and did 5c>3c on you while blocking.. For the most part because of the distance Kokonoe only has 2 normals she can use 3c & 5c, neither of those options are safe in anyway shape of form. SO you doing doing is actually just adding to the issue. 5B her next time."

[Loli Bacon]

Having played Kokonoe extensively, here's my two cents:

I feel Kokonoe is fine in terms of tools, but I feel her reverse proration on blackhole needs to be removed. If she got 2k damage off blackhole setup, that would be fine.

Her moves are VERY good, but her defensive options can be lacking. 2A mash for oki beats all of her defensive options as you can easily react to anything she tries to do. 22C? 2A whiff 5B punish. Backdash? 2A whiff dash 5B punish. Fireball? 2A whiff > block > punish.

Her zoning is good, but some characters do it better. Kokonoe's zoning only seems ridiculous because her pressure if they block her zoning options is exponentially stronger than other zoners. This makes her zoning more of a threat than say, Nu.

Kokonoe's pressure is very strong, but it has weakpoints all through out. The issue is that Blaz players aren't used to looking for those weakpoints. If you treat her pressure and pressure resets like a melty blood character, you'll do fine; block all day, react or guess as to where she'll attempt a reset, and get out. Some things can't be reacted to and you'll have to guess. Think of this as Melty pressure, such as H-Sion 2C > 5C > 5A stagger 5A/return to neutral. Sometimes she'll put a 22B out mid pressure string, but this can be beat if you know it's coming by hitting her. If you block her average speed 6B, IB her second hit to make her super - on block; you could mash 5A before she gets 22A out.

I feel a large issue with Kokonoe is most Blaz players are too fidgety; they get antsy and want to hit buttons like mad. This will get you killed against Kokonoe as a lot of her moves are SAFE (22B is C-Sei 22C oki, 6D > 236D catches backdashes, etc...) and she'll do a ton of damage if you guess wrong. The only move she has that is + on block is her 2C, so COUNT HER NORMALS and react if she tries to reset her pressure.

Learning the matchup is probably the best thing you can do, and remember, there's nothing wrong with just sitting there and blocking every now and then. Kokonoe has strong pressure and decent mixup, but if you know what you're looking for, she'll probably only land hits in pressure if you A) Let her get a raw 22B out and she gets a 50/50 (your mistake), B) you let her get a 5D/6D out and allow her to continue pressure (your mistake), C) She spends 50 meter to perform a 50/50 (this isn't unusual for most characters), or D) You reacted too late to a pressure reset (your mistake).

The biggest problem with Kokonoe is that she has very strong matchups against most of the cast, but that might just be because people have been too busy bitching about her rather than learning her matchups. I win more often when people try to get out of my stuff than when they just block and punish my unsafe things. I don't think she is ban worthy, but I think she's top tier.

[Maho]

3C -1 is still in Kokonoe's advantage due to her moves.

5B avoids 2A. So now you have to use 5A to beat her out. But then she uses 2A wich is low profile so she get's CH. Also she can just backdash for free any day of the week. The biggest issue I have with this move is that her 2A is low profile. And they can just pick up on your habits of mashing 2A and use 5B to get CH bounce for good dmg. I never press anything after 3C anymore.

The only 2As I found that Koko's 5B might be able to evade with her airborne frames after a blocked 3C are Arakune's, Bang's, Isayoi's and Platinum's, all being slow (8 to 10f) and hitting very low to the ground, everyone else beat Koko clean, if you get beat otherwise, you're just hitting 2A too late.

But the important part is that 3C is a 2 hit move, just IB the second hit and at -4 she'll never be able to hit buttons after it whoever you may play as (3C second hit isn't a low so you can stand to IB if that helps), you could say that she can cancel the 1st hit with a graviton to mess up that, but that's even better for you as she's punishable in that case. 3C > 5D > block is punishable by up to 16f moves, if she does 5D jump barrier asap, it's better for her but you can still punish with up to 11f moves.

After showing to the Kokonoe player he can't hit buttons ther, he might want to backdash away in that situation, but as good as her backdash is, it's really isn't safe when done that close and a lot of characters can punish it.

One thing that also makes 3C not good in blockstrings is the fact that it have minimum range, when done too close if you IB the move before it, the first hit will miss against most of the cast, against some both hits might whiff completely. There's no reason for Koko to use 3C in blockstrings most of the time, when she can do 2C at +3 or just jump cancel away to be safe.

Also her best things she does in blockstrings loses to crouch barrier unless she have a graviton set on the opponent or behind her to negate the pushback, 6A is amazing in blockstrings due to giving reverse beat options but it has no horizontal range. For exemple Koko can do 5A > 2B 1 hit > 6A > 2B, at two points during the blockstring she can do jC instead of 2B so that looks very strong (and it indeed is when she have a graviton set) but if you crouch barrier, the 6A will whiff and you'll be able to punish it.

Honestly i think the short horizontal range and reverse beat options have been given to 6A with graviton pressure in mind, it's not Arc Sys fault if they don't see it shouldn't work outsite of this situation.

Some people will then argue that "she can 6B at anytime", and yes she can, but seriously that's a 25f overhead with an obvious startup animation, it's not if was something like Testament's 6P, it's an easy to block overhead by Arc Sys standards.

[Justice7541]

Is it just me or does Kokonoe lack good abare? It seems like she doesn't get anything good off midscreen hits that aren't CH confirms or overhead/throw mixup, unless she burns meter. And unlike some characters who can corner combo from a fair distance away, I.e. Terumi, she has to be smack dab in the corner to be able to combo off 236a.

I could be wrong of course, I don't really play this char, but at least it's not like she can one-touch-death every character in the game off any hit meterless like Fire Elsa could.

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[NecroTheReaper]

3k damage is the average midscreen, which she gets easy via [5B>6A]x2

[Maho]

Max damage for grounded BnBs are around 2.5k from 5A/2A/2B, 3k for 5B, note that 5B > 6A will miss on almost all crouched characters so you can't autopilot it too much, combos that will work both on crouch and standing will do about 500 less, proper crouch confirms 500 to 1k more, except for 5B where damage can skyrocket.

[Loli Bacon]

Is it just me or does Kokonoe lack good abare? It seems like she doesn't get anything good off midscreen hits that aren't CH confirms or overhead/throw mixup, unless she burns meter. And unlike some characters who can corner combo from a fair distance away, I.e. Terumi, she has to be smack dab in the corner to be able to combo off 236a.

I could be wrong of course, I don't really play this char, but at least it's not like she can one-touch-death every character in the game off any hit meterless like Fire Elsa could.

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Her average midscreen damage is around 2k - 2.5k. It's below average. If she lands a point blank 5B crouching, an overhead, or an anti-air, her damage rises to about 4k, but that's standard for about any character in the game.

[Zouf]

Her average midscreen damage is around 2k - 2.5k. It's below average. If she lands a point blank 5B crouching, an overhead, or an anti-air, her damage rises to about 4k, but that's standard for about any character in the game.

2.5k midscreen without meter (or any sort of ressources) is not below average. It's average at worst. And 4k is certainly not the standard for any character.

She deals way more damage than your average joe, get real dude.

[PozerWolf]

Her average midscreen damage is around 2k - 2.5k. It's below average. If she lands a point blank 5B crouching, an overhead, or an anti-air, her damage rises to about 4k, but that's standard for about any character in the game.

This is horribly incorrect.

She gets very good damage midscreen with a good stater (like 5B and so on).

With Grav out, landing random hits become every more deadly due to the float caused by the Grav.

[Eshi]

If your opinion on Kokonoe does not accept the premise that Kokonoe is elder god tier, that only 5 characters can compete with her and none are even. You need to stop typing and play a good Kokonoe. Stop downplaying her and stop saying "learn the match-up" unless what you actually mean is "switch to one of the 5 characters that's still viable against her". This has already been discussed and established by players better than 99% of america.

The only talking point should be if people want to play a game with elder god tier Kokonoe, or without her. Either has understandable reasons but I prefer without her. I don't want to play a 6 character game (I'm learning Azrael so I will if I have to).

[Loli Bacon]

This is horribly incorrect.

She gets very good damage midscreen with a good stater (like 5B and so on).

With Grav out, landing random hits become every more deadly due to the float caused by the Grav.

Landing a "good" starter isn't average damage. If she lands a 5B crouching, she gets tons of damage. If she lands 5B CH, she gets tons of damage. If you're landing a 5B standing, her damage shoots down. Most of her hits will come from landing 2As or max range 2C during stagger pressure. If you land an overhead, her damage shoots up. If you have a graviton out (That's called a setup) your damage goes up.

On average, however, hit confirming with Kokonoe will be about 2k damage which will THEN allow you to set up something more solid to land higher damage on your next mixup, such as putting a graviton on them.

Her damage CAN be insane if the opponent lets you set up during blockstrings. 22B/5D during a blockstring gives her MUCH higher midscreen damage, but those are generally pretty punishable. If she lands a move on someone jumping, her damage goes higher as well. I'll say her average damage is closer to 3k if you'd like, just because of the chance of landing a "good" hit (brings it to about 4k) but there's also stuff like j.A land 2A confirms, which drop it to about 1500-1800 tops. The latter being much more often than landing good hits.

[PozerWolf]

Most of her hits will come from landing 2As or max range 2C during stagger pressure.

You can still get a lot of 2A, you can no doubt get A LOT out of 2C even on normal hit to catch jumps.

Watching videos and buddies playing her, people are able to land 3k off random 2As into oki. That's really good good mid screen.

I dunno, it sounds like you're not familiar with Kokonoe if you're limiting yourself.

[Loli Bacon]

You can still get a lot of 2A, you can no doubt get A LOT out of 2C even on normal hit to catch jumps.

Watching videos and buddies playing her, people are able to land 3k off random 2As into oki. That's really good good mid screen.

I dunno, it sounds like you're not familiar with Kokonoe if you're limiting yourself.

Fine. I resign. :v

[Skye]

The only talking point should be if people want to play a game with elder god tier Kokonoe, or without her. Either has understandable reasons but I prefer without her. I don't want to play SSBM.

Fixed for lulz and truth.

[Kurushii]

You can still get a lot of 2A, you can no doubt get A LOT out of 2C even on normal hit to catch jumps.

Watching videos and buddies playing her, people are able to land 3k off random 2As into oki. That's really good good mid screen.

Now you are making yourself look as bad as Akira-Shiro with information. 2A without meter, corner, crouching opponent, graviton, or a random object hit will NOT hit 3k into oki. Hell if you can make a graviton combo with 2A that breaks 3k into oki then please let me know. Let me bring up the combo thread since myself AND Loli Bacon have played this character for more hours in the lab than the majority of the players in america:

2A > 5B > 6A > 5B > 6A > 5C > 3C(2) >

Oki [1810/13%]

236A [2241/16%]

[Crouching Opponent] 2A > 5B > 2C > 6C > jc > j.B(2) > j.C > j.6/9D > j.236D |> 66 > 6[A] >

6B(2) > Oki [2774/19%]

6B(2) > 236B [3062/22%]

6B(2) > 236A [3110/22%]

236C [3227/22%]

[5D] 2A > 236D > 2C > 6C > jc > j.B(2) > j.C > j.6/9D > j.236D |> 236B [2832/20%]

[Near-Corner] [Crouching Opponent] 2A > 5B > 2C > 6C > jc > j.B(2) > j.C > j.6/9D > j.236D |> 66 > 6B(2) > 236B , 5C > 236C [3621/25%]

Unlike most starters, 2A and 5A can not go into the 5B > 2C route on CH. The hitstun decay on 5A/2A is ass and isn't even viable for her 6[A] > 22B route as Kokonoe players know. So please don't speak slander of my waifu.

[Eshi]

Fixed for lulz and truth.

I actually really love SSBM but it's a very different game. I would compare it to SSBB and Metaknight. Metaknight was obviously fucking stupid but people were like, nah let it go on and see how tournament results go before banning, then metaknight won 60%+ of tournaments as expected but his presence was so engrained that he was never banned anyway. Either Kokonoe is banned soon or not at all, there really is no in-between. Decide which game y'all would rather play!

[PozerWolf]

*snip*

Guess I'll have to check in and see what I saw wrong with those 2A starters.

If I could post the combos for results, I could, but quiet frankly I'm not 100% sure what the combos are myself.

That, or I'm just seeing things lol.

[mAc Chaos]

If she dominates in every other situation except 2A non-CH midscreen it isn't really saying much.

[Errol]

i only get 2k and oki midscreen off a 2a!

rachel corner: 1700 and oki

tsubaki midscreen 1600 no oki

tsubaki corner 1700 oki

give me some of that below average damage, please

[Loli Bacon]

If she dominates in every other situation except 2A non-CH midscreen it isn't really saying much.

Her wakeup defensive options are all OSd by the same setup. 2A meaty > react. She doesn't have a defensive game on wakeup either.

Mid pressure string is a different story, but you should learn to deal with her defenses rather than autopilot your pressure. Yes, it's annoying to deal with, but it's easily dealt with when you know what to do.

Disclaimer: I'm not saying she's bad or that she's not good. She's top tier. But she can be dealt with. I think it's too early for most of America to be calling for a ban because they barely know the matchup yet.

[Eshi]

Disclaimer: I'm not saying she's bad or that she's not good. She's top tier. But she can be dealt with. I think it's too early for most of America to be calling for a ban because they barely know the matchup yet.

This doesn't get more true the more times you repeat it. She can be dealt with using a handful of characters, most of whom are still at disadvantage, and the rest of them are screwed. Dealing with Kokonoe starts at the character select screen - just look at Tsujikawa vs. N-O. The other top tiers are strong but none of them have even close to this pervasive of an impact on the game. It is not too early to talk about banning her.

[Loli Bacon]

This doesn't get more true the more times you repeat it. She can be dealt with using a handful of characters, most of whom are still at disadvantage, and the rest of them are screwed. Dealing with Kokonoe starts at the character select screen - just look at Tsujikawa vs. N-O. The other top tiers are strong but none of them have even close to this pervasive of an impact on the game. It is not too early to talk about banning her.

We don't have enough matchup data or experience with the character to say what her matchups look like for certain. If we do, let's create a chart right now so we can compare.

[Star-Demon]

We don't have enough matchup data or experience with the character to say what her matchups look like for certain. If we do, let's create a chart right now so we can compare.

You are making an argument based on asking for more empirical proof that she needs to be banned but want to defer to a goddamned matchup chart to do that?

Stop pls.

You also ignored that Eshi was pretty much saying that Japan already hates this right along with us at several levels of play - Ban or no ban, this is most certainly a fine time to discuss banning her.

Let me help:

What do we expect to accomplish with banning her?

Do we really think we can accomplish this for real?

What do we expect to accomplish by not banning her?

Do we really think we can accomplish this for real?

What proof do we require to ban a character?