Kokonoe or Brokonoe?

[Nakkiel]

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thought i would contribute

[Errol]

First I've heard of that hah. Who made that a standard? It's always been based on a match.

Actually I thought of it. That standard is stupid. Bursts carry over between rounds so if you use your burst in round one you'd have different resources and therefore a different matchup in the second round. Fuck that matchups are based on matches. This ain't DnD we ain't doing no roundups.

I got it the only place that I know of people ever talking about matchups anymore, the jbbs matchup threads. which are still all a load of shit. But then again in japan matches are, outside of tournaments, typically best of 5 too.

I don't remember the exact numbers but they were posted somewhere. IDGAF. The point is that the numbers people associate with matchups have a harder reality behind them.

[Errol]

actually, technically, I didn't get 'based on rounds' from jbbs. instead I got people posting that a 7-3 matchup is 78% chance, etc. which I assumed came from chance of winning a MATCH as opposed to a round.

I mean, I agree it is kind of stupid. For the reasons which were mentioned. But that seemed to be what people were going with over there.

[Loli Bacon]

show your work people

chance of 7/3 advantage character winning a 2/3 set

= (probability of winning in 2 games) + (probability of winning in 3 games)

= (0.7 * 0.7) + 2 * (0.7 * 0.3) * 0.7

= 0.49 + 0.42 * 0.7

= 0.49 + 0.294

= 0.784

matchup scores should not be treated as per-round probabilities because they are not independent (bursts (ama beat me))

i have no interest in this statistics argument but i do have interest in correct math

D'oh, forgot a second P(A∩B) D= I knew I was wrong before, but I double checked like 4 times. Thanks for the correction.

[BananaKun]

Argue your hearts out, but also make sure you guys are looking at JP Kokonoes to see what she can do at high levels. American Kokos still drop combos. Take into account her potential too.

Tsujikawa seems to be the best Kokonoe player ATM, but he hasn't streamed recently so it's hard to track how the character is developing over there (His last footage was a set vs Dogura's Azrael). Other JP Kokonoes aren't as scary, and we already have Kokonoes here that play like the average 14-16 dan netplay Kokonoes over there based on the replays I've seen, but I'm not sure how meaningful rankings are in BBCP.

[miller483]

show your work people

chance of 7/3 advantage character winning a 2/3 set

= (probability of winning in 2 games) + (probability of winning in 3 games)

= (0.7 * 0.7) + 2 * (0.7 * 0.3) * 0.7

= 0.49 + 0.42 * 0.7

= 0.49 + 0.294

= 0.784

matchup scores should not be treated as per-round probabilities because they are not independent (bursts (ama beat me))

i have no interest in this statistics argument but i do have interest in correct math

I'LL BE THE ROUNDABOUTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTT

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Tdu4uKSZ3M

[floatwater]

All I have to say is:

Git gud fucking scrubs

EDIT: Be mindful, Pozerwolf made the thread of all people.

[Errol]

actually, technically, I didn't get 'based on rounds' from jbbs. instead I got people posting that a 7-3 matchup is 78% chance, etc. which I assumed came from chance of winning a MATCH as opposed to a round.

I mean, I agree it is kind of stupid. For the reasons which were mentioned. But that seemed to be what people were going with over there.

Anyway, all I want to say is, if you have a 3-7 matchup in the finals, you are fucked. god forbid you are coming from losers. You have to quite thoroughly outplay your opponent to win in that situation. Which is, I think, pretty common anyway.

I think, for example, there was a general consensus that although Arakune was S tier in CT, he wasn't tournament viable. Because the odds of him running into Nu or Rachel in a tournament were too high and he had awful matchups against them. But a char like Jin or Carl could've been tournament viable because even though they might not be S they had more even matchups against the two most common gods.

If there are enough kokonoes, then any char with a 3-7 matchup would probably become not tournament viable.

[Yohosie]

I'm not sure this is such a difficult question. People look at her matchup situations, and she has some 5.5-4.5's, or 5-5's. More importantly, she has some hard 7-3's if not 7.5-2.5s. This matters, but the real question is: is Blazblue Chrono Phantasma a better game without Kokonoe. The idea that this thread even EXISTS suggests that this may be the case. Personally, I think that the game is vastly improved without her in it. She's too dominant a character, and high-execution is a barrier to entry we can only rely on for so long. How long until the high-tier American players like BananaKen and Ivysaur become equivalent or surpass Tsujikawa? How long until people learn to adapt to the matchup by picking the few characters that can actually compete and only see 4-5 characters? She hurts character variety and makes a game that already feels like it lacks neutral game even moreso.

I also don't buy the slippery slope argument some are presenting that banning Kokonoe sets a bad precedent. Who cares. We are a group of adults, just because we ban 1 character for disrupting the longevity and fun of a game doesn't mean that we can't look at other situations with an objective eye. Shit we had a 20+ page argument about banning GuiltyGear macros (which, for the record, I was against stupidly), which LITERALLY ALLOWED YOU TO HAVE FRAME-PERFECT TIMING EVERY TIME ALWAYS. I'm pretty sure the anime community isn't looking at this lightly.

There's nothing wrong with banning a character if it's for the betterment of a game. Tournaments are a community event, and if as a community we gather together to fight poor design decisions of the developer so be it. Final Destination No Items Fox Only Mother Fuckers

[Kurushii]

Just to answer the question on matchup charts. The last couple that we have accepted were from Arcadia Magazine which had a ton of different top players of the specific game voice their opinion. P4U and a earlier build of +R were the last ones I've seen published. Even top players don't agree on matchups as shown in the P4U one. I'll be glad to dig those up if people really want them.

[Chosenninja]

I'd have to agree with Yohosie on that one

Also Kurushii, I'd appreciate it if you did happen to dig it up.

[FallenWhite]

Just to answer the question on matchup charts. The last couple that we have accepted were from Arcadia Magazine which had a ton of different top players of the specific game voice their opinion. P4U and a earlier build of +R were the last ones I've seen published. Even top players don't agree on matchups as shown in the P4U one. I'll be glad to dig those up if people really want them.

'd be appreciated...number of times I get called out for being OP =w=

[Loli Bacon]

'd be appreciated...number of times I get called out for being OP =w=

Matchup chart/tier list won't matter for that. Just tell your friend to stop being bad.

On topic, can we close this thread yet?

[FallenWhite]

Matchup chart/tier list won't matter for that. Just tell your friend to stop being bad.

On topic, can we close this thread yet?

2nded, plus, hard evidence is always handy, especially if you plan on doing beginner aimed character tutorials.

[Kurushii]

I can't find my old image of it so I just took a new one. http://www.mediafire.com/view/atjj1p1sbb2aqhl/P4U_Matchup_Chart.png

[BananaKun]

I'm not sure this is such a difficult question. People look at her matchup situations, and she has some 5.5-4.5's, or 5-5's. More importantly, she has some hard 7-3's if not 7.5-2.5s. This matters, but the real question is: is Blazblue Chrono Phantasma a better game without Kokonoe. The idea that this thread even EXISTS suggests that this may be the case. Personally, I think that the game is vastly improved without her in it. She's too dominant a character, and high-execution is a barrier to entry we can only rely on for so long. How long until the high-tier American players like BananaKen and Ivysaur become equivalent or surpass Tsujikawa? How long until people learn to adapt to the matchup by picking the few characters that can actually compete and only see 4-5 characters? She hurts character variety and makes a game that already feels like it lacks neutral game even moreso.

I also don't buy the slippery slope argument some are presenting that banning Kokonoe sets a bad precedent. Who cares. We are a group of adults, just because we ban 1 character for disrupting the longevity and fun of a game doesn't mean that we can't look at other situations with an objective eye. Shit we had a 20+ page argument about banning GuiltyGear macros (which, for the record, I was against stupidly), which LITERALLY ALLOWED YOU TO HAVE FRAME-PERFECT TIMING EVERY TIME ALWAYS. I'm pretty sure the anime community isn't looking at this lightly.

There's nothing wrong with banning a character if it's for the betterment of a game. Tournaments are a community event, and if as a community we gather together to fight poor design decisions of the developer so be it. Final Destination No Items Fox Only Mother Fuckers

I think this perspective on the ban is fine, but like I mentioned to SKD, how can you possibly enforce this? How do you convince everyone in the US that banning the character will make the game better, and how do you convince the rest of the world? Depending on how conservative you are on this issue, not even *having* hypothetical data that screams 7-3's, 8-2's, etc. across the board and no character variety necessarily convinces them of banning; now we're trying to predict here that her exclusion makes the game better with very little tournament data. Yes, the footage of her setups and extreme damage is there. She is clearly the best character in the game, but these things are not enough for everyone (everyone relevant to running tournaments anyway). Maybe for a local community, but this would never be adopted by EVO or any major for that matter.

[Sadeyo]

I can always post a video of me up against Jiyuna or Tsujikawa Kokonoe if that helps. I already finished uploading one up against Jiyuna's, that cat is too much but more then enough to keep on practicing against her before I consider learning her later down the road.

[Yohosie]

I think this perspective on the ban is fine, but like I mentioned to SKD, how can you possibly enforce this? How do you convince everyone in the US that banning the character will make the game better, and how do you convince the rest of the world? Depending on how conservative you are on this issue, not even *having* hypothetical data that screams 7-3's, 8-2's, etc. across the board and no character variety necessarily convinces them of banning; now we're trying to predict here that her exclusion makes the game better with very little tournament data. Yes, the footage of her setups and extreme damage is there. She is clearly the best character in the game, but these things are not enough for everyone (everyone relevant to running tournaments anyway). Maybe for a local community, but this would never be adopted by EVO or any major for that matter.

If the question isn't "should we ban Kokonoe" but "how do we get everyone to accept that we should ban Kokonoe" I think we already have our answer. We're a tight knit community, I don't think it would be that difficult, and there's enough crossover between America and Japan where that wouldn't be a huge issue. Besides, Japan is just as sick of her as we are.

EDIT: I'm not saying this is a clear cut answer. I know a lot of people don't want to ban her. I just think the game was much better without her, and therefore why not just get rid of her.

[Dandy J]

1. there will eventually be a patch

2. having a character that everyone hates does wonders for popularity. everyone hated phoenix in mvc3, but everyone had eyes glued to tourney matches when she was involved. injustice became way less interesting to spectators when scorpion got nerfed.

right now the game has a villain, and if the game stays like this for evo then it will be exciting in that way. the players should want to beat tsujikawa and the best kokonoe players, and the audience will be entertained watching players try to do it, whether they succeed or not. and if the patch is out by then, then theres no argument anyway. win win

[BananaKun]

If the question isn't "should we ban Kokonoe" but "how do we get everyone to accept that we should ban Kokonoe" I think we already have our answer. We're a tight knit community, I don't think it would be that difficult, and there's enough crossover between America and Japan where that wouldn't be a huge issue. Besides, Japan is just as sick of her as we are.

EDIT: I'm not saying this is a clear cut answer. I know a lot of people don't want to ban her. I just think the game was much better without her, and therefore why not just get rid of her.

Here's what Tsujikawa said in regards to banning her (translated by fubarduck):

https://twitter.com/fubarduck/status/422582346982756352

https://twitter.com/fubarduck/status/422582567301177344

https://twitter.com/fubarduck/status/422582961888702464

Yeah maybe there's character bias, but I think he wouldn't really give a shit if Kokonoe got banned, he'd just go back to Tao and keep destroying everyone since there wouldn't be any Kokonoe to worry about and he's one of the best players regardless. I don't think banning her has been seriously considered over there yet AFAIK. The US FGC would be the first ones pushing for making it part of a standardized ruleset.

[STenSatsu]

If you ban her you also then have to figure out how strong is too strong and judge the current top tier on that scale since I'm sure characters like Litchi and Tao have multiple 7-3 matchups also. Even before Koko, the top 5 or 6 characters were consistently the ones winning outside of maybe Tahichi with Azrael. You could say it is because of the players but then you'd have to say the same about Koko since it is basically Tsujikawa and maybe Matoi actually having tourney results it seems.

[Nas]

Just adding my 2 cents. I think it's kinda too late anyways to implement this reason. Why are we not banning her because she's console? Years and Years Fighting game tournies always had stern approach to console characters being allowed in games. Some already mention. Necrid, Hei, Spawn, Link were all banned in SC2. Kliff and Justice until recently were banned for being console characters. God Rugal, Shin Akuma in CVS2 and so on and so forth. This is a staple for as long as I can remember. I don't know when the switch happen, but I don't remember having to deal with console/DLC characters. This must be some kind of phenomenon that happen since the advent of SF4.

Note: I'm in favor of banning all the console characters, not just Kokonoe. I feel there was reason that the "console/DLC" unwritten rule was put into place a long time ago was so characters like Kokonoe, who didn't seem to get playtested enough, end up dominating. Did it happen yet? Not yet... let it come through. In time, It will be nothing but Kokos and characters that seem be able combat her come Evo. It's not even about step your competetiveness and step your shit up. If Koko ends up being banned, you still have characters that still dominate pretty well (Valk comes to mind).

[Errol]

If you ban her you also then have to figure out how strong is too strong and judge the current top tier on that scale since I'm sure characters like Litchi and Tao have multiple 7-3 matchups also.

oddly noone seems to be willing to accept that one right there. it's like people aren't allowed to put a number above 6:4 on any matchup.

strongest reason I can see to not ban is that right there. Chars like Valk have been shitting on most of the cast for a long long time already. Why just koko. Besides pay to win riling people up

[PozerWolf]

All I have to say is:

Git gud fucking scrubs

EDIT: Be mindful, Pozerwolf made the thread of all people.

Be careful what you wish for, turtles might appear and eat all of our fruit.

[Raiza57]

Id have to say that I think I play Kokonoe well, but when I am fighting other top level players I often come to think "Why would you do that!?" in the middle of playing.

In my honest opinion I do believe she is good, but she is far from unbeatable. Kokonoe has crap defensive options very similar to Carl. She is nothing but an easier neutral style version of Carl. If everyone who played Carl could just toss out a UB reset perfectly every time they got a hit I dont think anyone would care to ban him. But why Kokonoe?

Because she gets people hella salty. Why? Im not to sure? At first people were complaining that she got OP damage, at first I though I was crazy because everyone kept saying she touches you and deals 4k. I was wracking my brain trying to figure out WHAT THE HELL ARE YOU GETTING HIT BY THAT SHE GETS A RANDOM 4k!!!!! It was posted earlier of how much Damage Kokonoe gets from her A confirms. Nice to know I am not crazy.

Kokonoe has decent damage which would be around 2k-3k from random A confirms which in my opinion isnt all that great. Its not bad, but its nothing to brag about. There are plenty of characters capable of doing the same thing in CP. Hell 2a=5k for top tier Makoto in CS2 I think? Im also confused on why everyone says she has amazing normals.... The only ones im finding to be useful are Ja,Jb,5c which is a projectile, 3c Kokonoe is amazing air to air, ground to ground, and Ground to Air. Kokonoe has really bad normals for Air to Ground, J2c is not all that when trying to attack a grounded foe she is at a very large disadvantage but i'm not sure many people know this. At neutral she is annoying but not unbeatable, I find fighting Rachel to be more difficult than fighting Kokonoe. Unlike Kokonoe Rachel has the ability to leave multiple objects in your path to make reaching her all the more difficult. Kokonoe if she wishes to be annoying is require to always spend meter. Rachel tosses projectiles out along with george and Pumpkin then crouches as she goes to sleep. Because the moment you try to do a thing she activates her rods if you get hit its a mad easy confirm or Oki whichever the rachel player prefers, even if you blocked she still gets pressure.

This is difficult to put into words but, Kokonoe in my opinion is more at risk while setting up objects on the screen than Rachel. Yes she has gravity but that won't save her if she is trying to setup objects like her mine or fireball. She has nothing to protect her at this time. If she sets a mine force activate it, if she shoots a fireball avoid blocking it, if kokonoe tries to stop you from doing either of the above things listed she will need to expend meter. In this matchup it is very advantageous to just be annoying. Dont ever let her sit idle. Always give off the illusion you are constantly approaching, if she wishes to stuff you approach she will need to utilize her tools. Her tools that leave her completely vulnerable when summoning them. Kokonoe's main goal is not to hit you and do projectile damage till you die; similar to Mu, Nu, or Rachel. Her objective is to force you to block her projectiles so that she can get in and start walking on your face. Even though it doesnt feel like it, you should be running from Kokonoe until she has exhausted all of her resources. Naturally this will not happen. But if you make playing neutral for Kokonoe, she will be forced to use meterless pressure when she catches you to replenish the meter she used at neutral and the meter she just used for the hitconfirm that lead into the oki that you are now blocking. Which btw, is not really hard to stop. Always keep her busy, never give her time to rest. The only time she should be recovering meter is if you are on the offensive or she is doing combos. NEVER LET HER SIT THERE DOING NOTHING. Dash forward like your coming in, then superjump backwards. Make her use her resources to protect herself. Because Kokonoe has no defensive options, once she is caught, she is caught. And this will make any kokonoe player avoid putting themselves in that situation.