Kokonoe or Brokonoe?

[TD]

Id have to say that I think I play Kokonoe well, but when I am fighting other top level players I often come to think "Why would you do that!?" in the middle of playing.

In my honest opinion I do believe she is good, but she is far from unbeatable. Kokonoe has crap defensive options very similar to Carl. She is nothing but an easier neutral style version of Carl. If everyone who played Carl could just toss out a UB reset perfectly every time they got a hit I dont think anyone would care to ban him. But why Kokonoe?

Because she gets people hella salty. Why? Im not to sure? At first people were complaining that she got OP damage, at first I though I was crazy because everyone kept saying she touches you and deals 4k. I was wracking my brain trying to figure out WHAT THE HELL ARE YOU GETTING HIT BY THAT SHE GETS A RANDOM 4k!!!!! It was posted earlier of how much Damage Kokonoe gets from her A confirms. Nice to know I am not crazy.

Kokonoe has decent damage which would be around 2k-3k from random A confirms which in my opinion isnt all that great. Its not bad, but its nothing to brag about. There are plenty of characters capable of doing the same thing in CP. Hell 2a=5k for top tier Makoto in CS2 I think? Im also confused on why everyone says she has amazing normals.... The only ones im finding to be useful are Ja,Jb,5c which is a projectile, 3c Kokonoe is amazing air to air, ground to ground, and Ground to Air. Kokonoe has really bad normals for Air to Ground, J2c is not all that when trying to attack a grounded foe she is at a very large disadvantage but i'm not sure many people know this. At neutral she is annoying but not unbeatable, I find fighting Rachel to be more difficult than fighting Kokonoe. Unlike Kokonoe Rachel has the ability to leave multiple objects in your path to make reaching her all the more difficult. Kokonoe if she wishes to be annoying is require to always spend meter. Rachel tosses projectiles out along with george and Pumpkin then crouches as she goes to sleep. Because the moment you try to do a thing she activates her rods if you get hit its a mad easy confirm or Oki whichever the rachel player prefers, even if you blocked she still gets pressure.

This is difficult to put into words but, Kokonoe in my opinion is more at risk while setting up objects on the screen than Rachel. Yes she has gravity but that won't save her if she is trying to setup objects like her mine or fireball. She has nothing to protect her at this time. If she sets a mine force activate it, if she shoots a fireball avoid blocking it, if kokonoe tries to stop you from doing either of the above things listed she will need to expend meter. In this matchup it is very advantageous to just be annoying. Dont ever let her sit idle. Always give off the illusion you are constantly approaching, if she wishes to stuff you approach she will need to utilize her tools. Her tools that leave her completely vulnerable when summoning them. Kokonoe's main goal is not to hit you and do projectile damage till you die; similar to Mu, Nu, or Rachel. Her objective is to force you to block her projectiles so that she can get in and start walking on your face. Even though it doesnt feel like it, you should be running from Kokonoe until she has exhausted all of her resources. Naturally this will not happen. But if you make playing neutral for Kokonoe, she will be forced to use meterless pressure when she catches you to replenish the meter she used at neutral and the meter she just used for the hitconfirm that lead into the oki that you are now blocking. Which btw, is not really hard to stop. Always keep her busy, never give her time to rest. The only time she should be recovering meter is if you are on the offensive or she is doing combos. NEVER LET HER SIT THERE DOING NOTHING. Dash forward like your coming in, then superjump backwards. Make her use her resources to protect herself. Because Kokonoe has no defensive options, once she is caught, she is caught. And this will make any kokonoe player avoid putting themselves in that situation.

You know as I finished reading this I couldn't help shaking my head really hard. And you know my braids are long so they kept smacking me in the face. So I believe that counts as multiple facepalms. About 100 (I shook my head for awhile.)

I think... Instead of refuting this perhaps if you don't mind, you could provide match examples to back up some of what you're saying. Right now I am finding it really really hard not to straight up disagree with 90% of what you said. Seriously I would like to know how you've come to these conclusions, I'd love to be wrong about this character and she be just an average top tier.

[Raiza57]

You know as I finished reading this I couldn't help shaking my head really hard. And you know my braids are long so they kept smacking me in the face. So I believe that counts as multiple facepalms. About 100 (I shook my head for awhile.)

I think... Instead of refuting this perhaps if you don't mind, you could provide match examples to back up some of what you're saying. Right now I am finding it really really hard not to straight up disagree with 90% of what you said. Seriously I would like to know how you've come to these conclusions, I'd love to be wrong about this character and she be just an average top tier.

Which part would you like me to clarify?

Someone else already showed she doesnt get 4k from random confirms, are you referring to her Air to ground capabilities or her zoning being more riskier than rachels?

[TD]

All of the rest. Never mind the a confirms. No one gets over 3k without heat for an a confirm, so that statement was uneducated to begin with.

[Raiza57]

So for Air to ground kokonoe's Ja and Jb are really bad for jumpins because they have relatively bad vertical hitboxes. If you continue to crouch and to something similar to Ragna's 2c or Hakumens 2c you dont even need an AA to hit her out. Also J2c surprisingly does not have a Hakumen Hitbox Large red small blue. Most AA will still hit her out of J2c from some pretty silly distances. It will not be a CH, which I thought was odd, but she still gets hit. She has no good dash in normals, AA'ing J.2c is more likely to hit Kokonoe than it is to clash. You would have to be pretty freaking far to clash with her J2c, to the point where she would have whiffed anyway.

As for her her zoning being unsafe, the real question is what is keeping you from punishing her? If she places a 22B or summons a fireball you should be able to punish it for the most part, this is easier for characters who can run with far reaching normals. Ragna, Noel, Jin, Relius, Terumi. She has no pumpkin you need to worry about, no George to cock block, no rods to stress over while approaching her. She only has a prob that will slow your advances. Its as I said the only way Kokonoe can make summoning these projectiles safe is if you are fullscreen away, not really sure how or why you got there, or uses her 236D to push you away so that she can place them. And if she is going to place them, the only way to make them a threat is by using the prob again to either push you into 22B or control her fireball. All of which are constantly draining her meter. I just tested this if Kokonoe does 236D to push you>22b>236D to push you into 22B or D so she can summon a fireball she already has less than 50% of her meter. If she pushes you back into the mine she has about 45% if she leaves the mine and summons a fireball she is left with around 40% Is what it looks like. And her using this meter is exactly what you want. Once Rachel has anyone of her things out Pumpkin, George or Rod it becomes far more difficult to stop her from summoning more. Rachel also needs meter to make summoning her projectiles safe.. But unlike Kokonoe, once Rachel gets started it is very difficult to stop her depending on what she was able to summon. With Kokonoe, if she pushes you away keep trying to move forward, if she brings you closer keep trying to get away. Play annoying. I may still be missing something but this is just how simple I see this matchup. Keep in mind I am not referring to Kokonoe vs Rachel matchup just a general approach to forcing Kokonoe to exert meter. If possible always stay out of Kokonoes 2c & 5c range but stay inside her 3c range. Staying at this distance will make a kokonoe player very nervous. Because you are close enough to punish most summon attempts, and far enough that she cannot do much to harm you. If she tries to come in with the help of her projectiles and gravity get away; if she tries to come in without her setups and projectiles and such stuff her approach every character has tools to stuff her approach so long as the annoying stuff is on the screen.

[PozerWolf]

If she places a 22B or summons a fireball you should be able to punish it for the most part

I... what..? I... what the hell?!

Next thing you're going to tell me, you're going to explain how Valk's wolf mode is useless cause you can't block in that mode.

[Kurushii]

All of the rest. Never mind the a confirms. No one gets over 3k without heat for an a confirm, so that statement was uneducated to begin with.

In corner tho...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=au1DmjXda4c

[mAceOfHearts]

To be fair, breaking 3k in the corner from an a confirm is doable with most characters.

5A with Terumi easily nets you 3k and 55 heat.

[Raiza57]

I... what..? I... what the hell?!

Next thing you're going to tell me, you're going to explain how Valk's wolf mode is useless cause you can't block in that mode.

Grabbing her will cause all of the projectiles to disappear regardless if she techs the throw or not.

[mAceOfHearts]

Grabbing her will cause all of the projectiles to disappear regardless if she techs the throw or not.

That's not punishing. I think you got your terms mixed up.

It also has nothing to with characters having far reaching normals, which you implied before.

[Kurushii]

Grabbing her will cause all of the projectiles to disappear regardless if she techs the throw or not.

Yea, it's the same shit as Relius's doll. Even if they throw tech the doll goes away.

[Errol]

In corner tho...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=au1DmjXda4c

that's scary. What can you get off 2a with OD/meter? 7k? Hell what about midscreen if you have OD/meter available?

[Kurushii]

that's scary. What can you get off 2a with OD/meter? 7k? Hell what about midscreen if you have OD/meter available?

I doubt it. Maybe another 1k or so. Her OD is really only good for a extra graviton activation, or doing golden tager. Super Bawl has a lot of animation which takes away from the combo time. Her 5A/2A still has a horrible combo timer. The combos I showed are pretty much the limit before having the opponent tech. I should be able to tweak it to have a Tager ender instead but the proration would be laughable.

[Loli Bacon]

In corner tho...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=au1DmjXda4c

To be fair, that's with crouching. xD Again, if they're standing, damage is much lower.

Her damage is still crazy regardless.

[Raiza57]

That's not punishing. I think you got your terms mixed up.

It also has nothing to with characters having far reaching normals, which you implied before.

Tossing out pokes if someone is in reach is standard tactics, I said to stay inside of her 3c range for a reason. Kokonoes 5c does not have as much range as Ragnas 5c valks 5c and a few other character normals. From this distance poking her is possible, never let her sit still. Always attempt to stay in her in her 3c range out of her 5c range, you can punish a 22B attempt.. Is what I should have said.

[Loli Bacon]

Tossing out pokes if someone is in reach is standard tactics, I said to stay inside of her 3c range for a reason. Kokonoes 5c does not have as much range as Ragnas 5c valks 5c and a few other character normals. From this distance poking her is possible, never let her sit still. Always attempt to stay in her in her 3c range out of her 5c range, you can punish a 22B attempt.. Is what I should have said.

Kokonoe gets far more off a CH 5C than any other character in the game, so this isn't plausible.

[Raiza57]

Kokonoe gets far more off a CH 5C than any other character in the game, so this isn't plausible.

Hence why you stay out of her 5c range.. Her 5c doesnt have as much reach as most peoples standing pokes. Ragna has more reach, Jin, Haku, Terumi, Valk, Bullet, Mu, quite a few characters are able to out poke her.

[mAceOfHearts]

Terumi? His only normal with long reach is 5D, which prorates like crazy. At max range, he can't even cancel it into 6D, thus eliminating some of his best combo routes.

[Fistmaster049]

Ragna has more reach.

barely, plus from poking range, what is he going to get off it without meter?

[Auburn Notes]

Shorter way of looking at it;

If we allow Kokonoe we will see all the major, and maybe even minor, tournaments reduced to a Koko fest with the occasional Asrael or whatever. We have a fighting game with a good sized roster suddenly only seeing four or five characters being represented.

Or ban Koko from tournaments and miss out on only one character.

Sent from my VS840 4G using Tapatalk

This, simply because until a decision is made one way or another this "debate" will have no end. Still, she will be nurfed eventually so maybe people should just hang in there. At the most we will have to wait a little over one year.

[Fistmaster049]

You almost make it sound like we should put it to a vote

[STenSatsu]

This, simply because until a decision is made one way or another this "debate" will have no end. Still, she will be nurfed eventually so maybe people should just hang in there. At the most we will have to wait a little over one year.

The thing that pulsespot misses is that we should technically already have a 5ish character game even with Koko banned. But skilled players playing lesser characters can beat less skilled players playing better characters. But that can also be said for fighting kokonoe.

[Auburn Notes]

The thing that pulsespot misses is that we should technically already have a 5ish character game even with Koko banned. But skilled players playing lesser characters can beat less skilled players playing better characters. But that can also be said for fighting kokonoe.

Maybe, but if that really is the case can we just blame ASW for not balancing the game better and call it a day?

[Raiza57]

Terumi? His only normal with long reach is 5D, which prorates like crazy. At max range, he can't even cancel it into 6D, thus eliminating some of his best combo routes.

The purpose of poking her is not to do damage, but to 'catch her'. After a CH poke, most people tend to start blocking directly after they have been hit, use this time to get in and begin pressure. Kokonoe is not Tao, once you have the health lead make her work to get in. Play defensively, it is very easy to avoid getting hit by Kokonoe if she is trying to conserve meter. Even if she is using meter its still semi difficult, avoid standing near the probe, if she has a mine down and a probe behind you be prepared to be pushed into it and plan ahead walk or even run if you are that confident that she is trying to push you into the probe. BE AWARE OF ALL THAT IS ON THE SCREEN. And from a CH terumi can confirm into 236D or 2D. Maintaining dominance is the only reason for poking, not dealing damage. And making sure Kokonoe understands that if she tries anything stupid like a projectile that she better be prepared to take a risk. Kokonoe has no reversals, oki is very important NOT DAMAGE.

[BananaKun]

Regarding the Koko fest forecast:

It shouldn't happen, not always anyway. She still has some trouble against characters like Tao, Valk, Litchi, Rachel and Azrael, etc. They may be winning matchups for Kokonoe regardless, but if so they're like, 6-4's or something. Once those characters get started it's just really hard to get them off you, specially a character like Valk or Rachel. It's not that hard to get that hit you need with those characters, they have the tools to at least maneuver around Kokonoe's traps to get to her. Azrael suffers a lot in neutral, but he's still good for the moment because most Kokonoes can't play a good neutral game and only do setups.

My only regret with Kokonoe is that I didn't pick Valk instead so that I can feel morally superior and never actually have to talk about him and spend all that time playing instead

[Errol]

It shouldn't happen, not always anyway. She still has some trouble against characters like Tao, Valk, Litchi, Rachel and Azrael, etc. They may be winning matchups for Kokonoe regardless, but if so they're like, 6-4's or something.

Just to check, have you seen the N-O vs tsujikawa matches. Seems doubtful that's as good as 6-4 for Rachel.