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PozerWolf

Kokonoe or Brokonoe?

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My only regret with Kokonoe is that I didn't pick Valk instead so that I can feel morally superior and never actually have to talk about him and spend all that time playing instead

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Just to check, have you seen the N-O vs tsujikawa matches. Seems doubtful that's as good as 6-4 for Rachel.

I meant 6-4 Kokonoe..

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I meant 6-4 Kokonoe..

I meant it's doubtful it's 6-4 Kokonoe, but rather 6.5 or 7. It's definitely her worst matchup.

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I meant it's doubtful it's 6-4 Kokonoe, but rather 6.5 or 7. It's definitely her worst matchup.

IDK about accurately assessing the matchup, 6-4 is just easier to say than "Kokonoe still wins more than Rachel, but Rachel can win against Kokonoe more than Ragna or Jin could". Her worst matchup? Depends TBH.. there's always Valk and Mu is worth mentioning as well. I'm surprised I forgot to mention Mu, she's actually the most trouble I've had so far, although my only Rachel experience is on a 1 bar connection.

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Kokonoe can duck under some of Valk's overhead wolf setups when barrier at the right times.

It's the basic string with dash bite and the valks go High or Low with the kick or the sweep. If you barrier the bite and the Valks go for a High, the High will whiff and you can punish. Playing my buddies' Valk, the high Kick thing he does in wolf mode whiffed a lot to the point where he stopped doing it (only going for low and command throw mix ups), but the only string I recall dodging the high was the wolf bite into mix up. I don't know the name or normals for him :(

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My only regret with Kokonoe is that I didn't pick Valk instead so that I can feel morally superior and never actually have to talk about him and spend all that time playing instead

I think I might make this my signature.

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IDK about accurately assessing the matchup, 6-4 is just easier to say than "Kokonoe still wins more than Rachel, but Rachel can win against Kokonoe more than Ragna or Jin could". Her worst matchup? Depends TBH.. there's always Valk and Mu is worth mentioning as well. I'm surprised I forgot to mention Mu, she's actually the most trouble I've had so far, although my only Rachel experience is on a 1 bar connection.

Well I meant Rachel's worst matchup is kokonoe. Neutral is too bad.

N-O is really out there. To lose that badly is really something. He doesn't seem to lose even the known bad matchups for Rachel, like Tao. I would be interested to see Tsuji tao vs N-O. But with anyone else I might buy it, but N-O is not lacking in player skill.. by any means... lol. And he'd rather switch to kokonoe than play Rachel vs Kokonoe. W/e.

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Well I meant Rachel's worst matchup is kokonoe. Neutral is too bad.

N-O is really out there. To lose that badly is really something. He doesn't seem to lose even the known bad matchups for Rachel, like Tao. I would be interested to see Tsuji tao vs N-O. But with anyone else I might buy it, but N-O is not lacking in player skill.. by any means... lol. And he'd rather switch to kokonoe than play Rachel vs Kokonoe. W/e.

Let's not forget Tsujikawa is a god, too. I agree though, 10-3 is a beating. I'd just like to see them play again and see how they've both adjusted.

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Let's not forget Tsujikawa is a god, too. I agree though, 10-3 is a beating. I'd just like to see them play again and see how they've both adjusted.

of course. But if there's one person you can't argue is worse it'd be N-O if you ask me.

they played in the big online godsgarden a month or so back. It was worse. I can't remember how many matches they played though. I want to see he didn't take a match, and that he got eliminated out of winner's by him and in grand finals? 5-0 or 4-1 or something. Not many rounds taken either IIRC. Doubt I can still watch the thing on nico this late...

ed: looks I can still watch it till 1/22. results 5-0. N-O won 3 rounds.

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Kokonoe can duck under some of Valk's overhead wolf setups when barrier at the right times.

It's the basic string with dash bite and the valks go High or Low with the kick or the sweep. If you barrier the bite and the Valks go for a High, the High will whiff and you can punish. Playing my buddies' Valk, the high Kick thing he does in wolf mode whiffed a lot to the point where he stopped doing it (only going for low and command throw mix ups), but the only string I recall dodging the high was the wolf bite into mix up. I don't know the name or normals for him :(

wjC whiffing while used after a jump cancel is a common issue with a big part of the cast.

That's why there is no blockstrings with a jump cancel wjC in the Valk strategy guide because that's actually a bad choice.

When it comes to wolf pressure, whether it is her 22C or her backdash, none is particularly efficient against Valk's pressure and she most of the time gets badly punished for it. Her reversal gets blocked by most option selects too and gets punished with a full combo midscreen or in the corner.

As for neutral game, she can be punished on reaction by a w236A if she uses fireball or 22B. In 22B's case, if she blocks the w236A, you end up behind her out of 22B's reach. You can then 4D/7D to still be safe.

Only thing annoying in neutral against her are random gravitons in order to outplay Valk or moves with big hitbox like j2C.

I'm not saying Valk got the advantage, mind you. My point is that the matchup is far from being one-sided and Litchi is much more of a pain to deal with than Kokonoe is.

As for my opinion considering the ban or not, I'm simply neutral. Kokonoe is still really cute compared to Eddie #R(apist).

However, if she's not banned, I won't be surprised if we see a Kokonoe and Valk army in tournaments.

Hope the Valk datas were useful.

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of course. But if there's one person you can't argue is worse it'd be N-O if you ask me.

they played in the big online godsgarden a month or so back. It was worse. I can't remember how many matches they played though. I want to see he didn't take a match, and that he got eliminated out of winner's by him and in grand finals? 5-0 or 4-1 or something. Not many rounds taken either IIRC. Doubt I can still watch the thing on nico this late...

Yeah and I wouldn't be surprised if that continued being the case, I just think at worst this implies Rachel-Kokonoe is as bad as Tsujikawa makes it look to be once other Kokonoes catch up whether it's 6-4 or 7-3 or 8-2 or w/e. Kokonoe is without a doubt the best, she needs a nerf. That still only makes the argument for banning her that "it'll make the game better", not that matches vs Koko are nigh unwinnable and thus she should obviously be removed. The closest banning on these grounds was to succeeding is Meta Knight in Brawl, and even that didn't succeed for very long (people are playing MK at Apex as we speak).

I do think that practicing against her and studying her blockstrings as well as how to mitigate/escape her blackhole stuff when possible goes a long way. I know that's not what people want to hear, but all I can do is help people out with that in the meantime.

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Back in my day, when I was banned I stayed banned until I was unbanned.

Anyways, Here's what I think of various arguments so far:

Matchup numbers/normals conparisons are so silly and irrelevant to the actual problem that has yet to be agreed upon. The question is if we should ban her yet we've failed to establish any criteria for consideration. Instead, the thread has gone in circles talking about so many details that it forgot what it was trying to do and accomplish.

I agree mostly with BK with the proviso that we actively work to understand her as a community. I don't think anyone is actually doing their best to deliver good information/ understanding to others especially in light of the fact you have to buy Kokonoe in order to get any practice against her.

Certainly, competitive players will absolutely not share information about kokonoe with others - to me this represents an information disparity in our own community. This isn't considered fair in the real world of money and it shouldn't be considered fair in the world of Sport. This simple fact establishes cause for concern in the competitive side of the game.

So anyways - I'll again ask to keep the thread on track:

What are the criteria for banning a character?

What do we hope to accomplish by banning a character?

After we establish those we can argue about if it would work or not.

Alternatively, we can discuss ways players can improve and how this community can solve the big problem (kokonoe/noel top 8)(, but I have my doubts we can actually come up with anything actionable. We really do like to stew in our own shit when it comes to this sort of thing.

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The reasons for banning a character should be on the grounds if the character in question is regarded as "too good and unbalanced"

To further expand on this, what makes a character "too good"? Well..

A ) They are overpowered

B ) They have way too much control over the neutral to an unfair degree

C ) Their tools are too good (by which meaning they are better than the rest of the cast's tools/most of the cast aren't capable of dealing them)

D ) On top of all these points, they are easy to abuse (ease of use of such a character)

Now unless I'm mistaken, Kokonoe fills in most if not all of these categories, making her liable for banning

By having such a character exist and be legit in tournaments would be incredibly unhealthy for the scene, this character will continue going to tournaments and probably even winning them due to the fact she is overall better than the cast in general. What will people do about it? will they grit their teeth and learn around her? or will they submit and pick up the character out of salt just so they can taste victory? But if the second one is the case, we could potentially see one character dominated tournaments which will lead to unhypeness in the audience watching, lack of fun for other players actually playing the tournament and the game's scene slowly decaying because one character is "too good". I believe banning her until she is changed will keep the scene at least a bit more healthy for a good while longer so it can give rise to more character variety and thus more chances for people to get hype when something like e.g. "A Bullet perfecting a Litchi" happens.

Now while my personal stance is more towards banning her I do not like the thought of exclusion, people have taken time to learn this character from the ground up and some players were really looking forward to seeing Kokonoe finally being playable, I can understand that, However the way this character has been designed playstyle-wise is simply too unbalanced compared to the rest of the cast.

These are my thoughts on it, I'm voting ban Kokonoe so we can see a more balanced scene

Whens CP2

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Certainly, competitive players will absolutely not share information about kokonoe with others - to me this represents an information disparity in our own community. This isn't considered fair in the real world of money and it shouldn't be considered fair in the world of Sport. This simple fact establishes cause for concern in the competitive side of the game.

I'm definitely not one of those, I feel it's damaging to not freely share information in smaller communities like these.

Did you just say Kokonoe AND Noel top 8 as a big problem to solve? :lol:

The reasons for banning a character should be on the grounds if the character in question is regarded as "too good and unbalanced"

To further expand on this, what makes a character "too good"? Well..

A ) They are overpowered

B ) They have way too much control over the neutral to an unfair degree

C ) Their tools are too good (by which meaning they are better than the rest of the cast's tools/most of the cast aren't capable of dealing them)

D ) On top of all these points, they are easy to abuse (ease of use of such a character)

Now unless I'm mistaken, Kokonoe fills in most if not all of these categories, making her liable for banning

The main issue with this is that all of these criteria you can freely interpret what any of these mean. Overpowered, too much control, too good, easy to abuse are perceived differently by everyone.

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I'm definitely not one of those, I feel it's damaging to not freely share information in smaller communities like these.

You know, I don't believe that anymore. Why is that? You have zero reason to do anything but tell everyone to go EAD and go figure it out and do better for their own good, but yours as well. You tell people to GIT GUD, since they need to anyways, and you keep the info to yourself so you can compete and win. Anything else is irrational....unless you got some good reasons for sharing? I'd love to hear it! Part of the argument for not banning her is America sucks and needs to get better. Why would you share/spoonfeed america like that? We've already established that spoonfeeding players is wrong and hurts us err...somehow! Lol!

Did you just say Kokonoe AND Noel top 8 as a big problem to solve? :lol:

Yes, I think it represents two problems we have right now: one we had before and one that happened after kokonoe was released. That's just my opinion, though.

The main issue with this is that all of these criteria you can freely interpret what any of these mean. Overpowered, too much control, too good, easy to abuse are perceived differently by everyone.

Hence the need for building consensus.

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This isn't considered fair in the real world of money and it shouldn't be considered fair in the world of Sport.

If you think for a second that leveraging advantages whether known or unknown to an opposing "player, company, business, government" isnt considered fair then you arent living in the real world

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If you think for a second that leveraging advantages whether known or unknown to an opposing "player, company, business, government" isnt considered fair then you arent living in the real world

If you were right, no one would say a damn thing about Triforce or Finance Fraud, even if everything about Triforce was 100% true.

Fact that are in front of us:

- Information key to winning - if you want to compete you must keep as much of it to yourself or give out bad information.

- Kokonoe is paid DLC and it shows fairly easily that not as many people have her - this is sufficient to showing there's haves and have-nots in this situation

- Players insist she can be figured out and we need to do it - they do not intend to volunteer it because doing so hurts both them and us.

So yeah, what I say stands. In real life we have regulations. In Videogame communities we may need the same. We're in a situation where we have ot choose whether ot OMGSPOONFEED people or tell them to EAD. This thread has stayed open sufficiently long where I think we should be at least trying to be finding middle ground, and I have no faith we will. The thread will be locked or deleted, and either we'll made a decision, leave it as is, and life will go on.

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You know, I don't believe that anymore. Why is that? You have zero reason to do anything but tell everyone to go EAD and go figure it out and do better for their own good, but yours as well. You tell people to GIT GUD, since they need to anyways, and you keep the info to yourself so you can compete and win. Anything else is irrational....unless you got some good reasons for sharing? I'd love to hear it!

Yes, I think it represents two problems we have right now: one we had before and one that happened after kokonoe was released. That's just my opinion, though.

Hence the need for building consensus.

There's very good reasons for sharing information like I mentioned, it's a common and well explored school of thought in many competitive hobbies, disciplines, etc. It just so happens the opposite is very, very popular in fighting games (STSFN for lack of a better term), and while it's not necessarily wrong, making a conscious effort to avoid this is probably good for helping smaller communities like these grow and improve, including oneself. Anyway, this will definitely derail the topic. I'd be happy to reply to talk about it, just not in this thread.

Back on this, information on Kokonoe should NOT be lacking. It's not digested and broken down as easily as possible, but the match video thread here is fairly comprehensive, my youtube channel (as well as some others) contain a lot of videos regarding her tech. To the best of my knowledge, everything that's been found about her is public domain, just do some searching. I'd be lying if I denied the possibility of someone finding some "secret tech" with her and was hiding it, but I think the most important aspects of all her tech is covered already.

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If you were right, no one would say a damn thing about Triforce or Finance Fraud, even if everything about Triforce was 100% true.

Fact that are in front of us:

- Information key to winning - if you want to compete you must keep as much of it to yourself or give out bad information.

- Kokonoe is paid DLC and it shows fairly easily that not as many people have her - this is sufficient to showing there's haves and have-nots in this situation

- Players insist she can be figured out and we need to do it - they do not intend to volunteer it because doing so hurts both them and us.

So yeah, what I say stands. In real life we have regulations. In Videogame communities we may need the same. We're in a situation where we have ot choose whether ot OMGSPOONFEED people or tell them to EAD. This thread has stayed open sufficiently long where I think we should be at least trying to be finding middle ground, and I have no faith we will. The thread will be locked or deleted, and either we'll made a decision, leave it as is, and life will go on.

Why not just balance it out? Why not spoon-feed them A LITTLE info general grasp on it and then for anything else concerning her just tell them to research it themselves. it doesn't always have to be black and white with the info.

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If you were right, no one would say a damn thing about Triforce or Finance Fraud, even if everything about Triforce was 100% true

theres a difference between semi-to-complete transparency, leveraging advantages and out and out corruption lol

ppl will always push to get as much advantage over others in business or games or money as possible and thats hows its been and always going to be -- collaboration or not

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- Information key to winning - if you want to compete you must keep as much of it to yourself or give out bad information.

This confuses me. Is this how you actually play..."competitively"? If you're having to lie to people just so you can win to get your rocks off, I think you should find a different hobby...perhaps one that doesn't involve other people.

I'm sure that I'm not alone in feeling that the best feeling in this or any fighting game is when you're against a very skilled, equally matched opponent. When you both know what cards the other guy has to play with and the game evolves from mashing buttons to a 100mph game of chess. If you can't enjoy PLAYING the game, then you're in the wrong place. I know it feels so much better to win at a tournament after a set of great matches than to win because you lied/hid information. It seems like a shallow win to me. If you're willing to do dishonest things like that so you can walk around gloating about being "da bes" (I'm not sure how people spell that.), then you need to get your life in order, because you're obviously failing somewhere else and trying to compensate with a false sense of importance.

I'd rather take my Nu into a Koko fight, give it hell, and lose. At least then, I'd be playing at my best and challenging myself, playing a game I really enjoy.

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This confuses me. Is this how you actually play..."competitively"? If you're having to lie to people just so you can win to get your rocks off, I think you should find a different hobby...perhaps one that doesn't involve other people.

I'm sure that I'm not alone in feeling that the best feeling in this or any fighting game is when you're against a very skilled, equally matched opponent. When you both know what cards the other guy has to play with and the game evolves from mashing buttons to a 100mph game of chess. If you can't enjoy PLAYING the game, then you're in the wrong place. I know it feels so much better to win at a tournament after a set of great matches than to win because you lied/hid information. It seems like a shallow win to me. If you're willing to do dishonest things like that so you can walk around gloating about being "da bes" (I'm not sure how people spell that.), then you need to get your life in order, because you're obviously failing somewhere else and trying to compensate with a false sense of importance.

I'd rather take my Nu into a Koko fight, give it hell, and lose. At least then, I'd be playing at my best and challenging myself, playing a game I really enjoy.

*Applause*

To me a game's purpose is to have fun, following that, a fighting game's purpose is to have fun fighting other players. The way I see it, if you're lying that's just handicapping other player's not making yourself better...

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*Applause*

To me a game's purpose is to have fun, following that, a fighting game's purpose is to have fun fighting other players. The way I see it, if you're lying that's just handicapping other player's not making yourself better...

So our tourneys are no better than Casuals? Gotchya.

If you're trusting what other people are telling you, you are being spoonfed and don't deserve to win because you didn't do anything yourself. Sound familiar? Sounds familiar to me.

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If you're trusting what other people are telling you, you are being spoonfed and don't deserve to win because you didn't do anything yourself. Sound familiar? Sounds familiar to me.

snap2013032023h52m11s17.png

I'm sorry but.... What? How does people sharing information with you mean you don't deserve to win?

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