Kokonoe or Brokonoe?

[WintySoSolo]

oh hi since I made my actual serious post on the subject

can someone explain to me why kokonoe doesn't have SMP on any of her moves aside the dumb punch/grab thing which she gets a dumb reset off of when she activate the SMP, and why she gets to do it 3 times before SMP because the two different versions count as different moves?

like srs I can't do 22C more than twice in a combo as jin but kokonoe gets to do a combo where she drops 5 lightning pillars or does 6 wallslams with her jumping hammer move wtf guys come on

[LegendaryRath]

oh hi since I made my actual serious post on the subject

can someone explain to me why kokonoe doesn't have SMP on any of her moves aside the dumb punch/grab thing which she gets a dumb reset off of when she activate the SMP, and why she gets to do it 3 times before SMP because the two different versions count as different moves?

like srs I can't do 22C more than twice in a combo as jin but kokonoe gets to do a combo where she drops 5 lightning pillars or does 6 wallslams with her jumping hammer move wtf guys come on

I'm laughing imagining Azrael with no SMP. He'd be doing five 6A (shoulder tackle) wallbounces in each combo.

This really seems to be a major problem with her damage. It might actually be ok if most of her normals could only be used once.

[susano]

She definitely needs nerfs but I don't agree with banning her. I have been raped by good Kokonoes so I know the pain of what she can do.

[Maho]

Having SMP on lightning pillars wouldn't change her damage that much, 22A loop is really far from being an optimal combo (doing 5 6A's with Azrael would kinda be the same btw), having multiple 22B in a combo is situational and getting rid of it wouln't be that bad for her. As for jC having an SMP, yes it would hurt her combos really much, but i doubt this will happen as it would serverly reduce her possible combo routes, they could simply reduce its P2 so multiple uses in a combo would lower the overall damage while leaving the utility of the move, her combo rate could be reduced too.

[RifleAvenger]

I'm laughing imagining Azrael with no SMP. He'd be doing five 6A (shoulder tackle) wallbounces in each combo.

Not to mention Hokuto no Ken basketball infinite look-alikes with j.D in overdrive with UW. I actually kinda want U.Azrael to not have SMP proration just to see what kind of crazy combo shit you could do.

Having SMP on lightning pillars wouldn't change her damage that much, 22A loop is really far from being an optimal combo (doing 5 6A's with Azrael would kinda be the same btw), having multiple 22B in a combo is situational and getting rid of it wouln't be that bad for her. As for jC having an SMP, yes it would hurt her combos really much, but i doubt this will happen as it would serverly reduce her possible combo routes, they could simply reduce its P2 so multiple uses in a combo would lower the overall damage while leaving the utility of the move, her combo rate could be reduced too.

The bigger thing would be giving 6A and 6B SMP. A lot of the EZ-4K meterless stuff Koko does relies on looping 6B to 6B -> 236 B somewhere in the combo. Often adding 500-1000 damage to the combo and improving the corner carry.

[Maho]

Actually giving 6A and 6B SMP wouldn't be that as bad as jC, it would hurt the players that rely only on the easy stuff but optimals combos won't uses multiple 6A and 6B that much. I'm curently in the process of making a vid for a midscreen okizeme, and of all my optimal combos, only the 6B starter one use 6B twice (the second being a charged one, I could replace it for a 6[A] to avoid that SMP and only lose like 2 digits dmg), for exemple my best midscreen AA 6A combo does 4757 and the only move i use twice is 5B.

[Yazumatto]

It's because they don't balance their games, IMO.

They make a new game.

They try to make sure each character has satisfying gameplay.

Try to change characters up so people are doing new things so they don't lose interest

Some balancing internally

Release the game

and repeat. They do pretty good for balance on day 1. But they never move past day 1. They just make a new game.

So you're safe picking valkenhayn or hazama

Also I have already played this game more than enough for the price. I'd like to have a patch too, but we just don't know if that will happen...

You're probably right on the balancing statement but I'm still skeptical on the futures of the eternal top-tiers you listed. It took Arakune five games before he got nerfed into the ground. People didn't think it was going to happen but it happened. Granted, his drive isn't movement-based, a trait that the forever top-tiers, Valk, Hazama and Tao have (and seriously, how did you forget about Tao? she's been insane for all of BB's lifespan). I'm not holding my breath on some actual balance for those three but it's too early to call.

Really, it feels like a noticeable amount of the nerfing comes from how vocal the Japanese arcade community is since ArcSys asks for feedback from time to time through various methods. Every game, someone gets wrecked by the nerfs and it's usually public enemies #1 and #2. Nu/Rachel, Bang/Litchi, Makoto/Jin, Ragna/Hakumen. All of these characters were top and nerfed into mediocrity in the next game. In the case of Rachel and Makoto, they got nerfed into the stone age while Litchi took two games to become meh (CS1 -> EX, although she's top-tier again in CP like Jin). As far as I can tell, Hakumen got nerfed from EX to CP but system changes rocketed him back into high/top.

I honestly think no one in Japan complains about Hazama because all nerds love fedora-wearing trolls, regardless of culture (also, Pachi will never let his child run around in poverty tier). Valk apparently got nerfed but not hard enough and Tao always evades the nerf hammer somehow.

If I'm going by the characters the JP community hates most, it's definitely Koko and Valk. Litchi and Hakumen probably aren't far behind. The latter are guesses but I'm 100% sure on Koko and close to 100% on Valk.

The whole DLC to arcade thing has me slightly concerned though. Tataki has some good points about the DLC characters being beta on consoles since Kokonoe is the third busted DLC character that has been released. They do get changed and refined before the arcade release. ArcSys's track record on this is pretty bad though. CS1 Valk and Makoto were busted as DLC and both were top-tier in CS2. Theoretically, Kokonoe could still be broke in the next game. It doesn't seem probable since there's just so many people complaining about her but it could still happen.

TL; DR:I just said a whole lot of nothing in a wall of text so ignore me.

As for banning Kokonoe now, waiting to see if Kokonoe skews tournament results seems to be best. If people aren't stepping up their Koko game in tourney, banning her will just alienate people IMO.

[Raiza57]

"I thinks the biggest problem is that to many people don't know how to avoid Kokonoe. Apparently only like 9 people cant get out of black hole. Take away black hole and she is just a very powerful neutral game character. Getting damage only from punishes isn't all that great, most characters can get about 3.5k-4k from an anti-air so her getting a lot from her punishes is understandable. She lacks the ability to do any serious threats from things like 5a or 2a, her pressure is average and her mixup comes at a risk of her losing all pressure. Either 6b or jc instant OH, on block both options leave Kokonoe vulnerable to the opponents pressure. Her pokes are limited in what they can do so its like, to me, when are you really taking all this insane damage. She is very momentum oriented, with a properly placed CA or burst she is back to square one. Keep in mind that her neutral is also very meter consuming, more so than her pressure. I can see why everyone would believe she is OP but you guys are only looking at the pros, what about her cons?"

Edit: "This doesnt mean I dont think she is top, she probably is. However, iv seen worse top-tiers

RAGNA"

~Shiro

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=52Y9E0tAv8M&feature=youtu.be

[TD]

letting her fate be decided via tournament play is probably the best way currently. nothing like a tournament to sway the masses' opinions. since multiple medium and big tournaments will provide hard evidence on just how powerful and influential she is.

and the reason multiple tournaments would need to be held should be obvious. if x player won evo with her, yeah, its a big deal. but if x player wins evo, y player wins nec, z player beats apex, a player wins seasons beatings, b player dominates winter brawl... huge flipping problem. if that happens over the course of say 7-8 months she probably should be banned for the remainder of cp.

[Beautiful Death]

"I thinks the biggest problem is that to many people don't know how to avoid Kokonoe. Apparently only like 9 people cant get out of black hole. Take away black hole and she is just a very powerful neutral game character. Getting damage only from punishes isn't all that great, most characters can get about 3.5k-4k from an anti-air so her getting a lot from her punishes is understandable. She lacks the ability to do any serious threats from things like 5a or 2a, her pressure is average and her mixup comes at a risk of her losing all pressure. Either 6b or jc instant OH, on block both options leave Kokonoe vulnerable to the opponents pressure. Her pokes are limited in what they can do so its like, to me, when are you really taking all this insane damage. She is very momentum oriented, with a properly placed CA or burst she is back to square one. Keep in mind that her neutral is also very meter consuming, more so than her pressure. I can see why everyone would believe she is OP but you guys are only looking at the pros, what about her cons?"

Edit: "This doesnt mean I dont think she is top, she probably is. However, iv seen worse top-tiers

RAGNA"

~Shiro

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=52Y9E0tAv8M&feature=youtu.be

However, iv seen worse top-tiers

RAGNA"

Is that some kind of joke?

[Stellarcircle5]

I hated Extend Ragna as much as the next guy, but Koko seems way beyond him in terms of douchebaggery. Of course, I play Valkenhayn so I'm not allowed to complain.

[Errol]

Really, it feels like a noticeable amount of the nerfing comes from how vocal the Japanese arcade community is since ArcSys asks for feedback from time to time through various methods. Every game, someone gets wrecked by the nerfs and it's usually public enemies #1 and #2. Nu/Rachel, Bang/Litchi, Makoto/Jin, Ragna/Hakumen. All of these characters were top and nerfed into mediocrity in the next game.

Not really true. Litchi wasn't mediocre in CS2 and not in EX. Bang and Jin didn't go to the bottom of their games, although the contrast is pretty large (and jin has a large population to whine, same as ragna). Ragna is still quite good in CP, and Hakumen is still S in CP, no matter how you want to justify it... CT to CS is whatever, it was the very first game. There's many more examples of chars staying consistent, even including top tiers who you'd think should get nerfed, or bottom tiers who you'd think should get buffed.

[PozerWolf]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=52Y9E0tAv8M&feature=youtu.be

I have to disagree with most of this video.

A lot of segments explain how she's limited in X situation, but having been in training mode with her for just 24 hours, it's clear this player hasn't been playing Kokonoe for very long (or if any).

[Skye]

My scrub Kokonoe nerd wish list:

Take away jc on uncharged 6a

Graviton activate should cost like half the graviton gauge.

Graviton gauge should deplete faster.

Graviton gauge should have cool down if it depletes.

Remove jump cancel on on block on 5b and 5c

Remove aerial state on 5b.

Remove full invul on black hole

Remove invul on super ball.

Remove guaranteed projectile on super ball.

Think that's it.

[TD]

wow you're going to castrate her. some are ok but the list as a whole is a bit much.

btw, 6[a] 2c works, so highly doubt non jc 6[a] will hurt her too much.

[Errol]

rather see her 6a lose head invuln when charged, and go invuln after 7f instead of 4f (WTF???), and lose the hitbox behind her (dat knee).

[SeiRu]

"I thinks the biggest problem is that to many people don't know how to avoid Kokonoe. Apparently only like 9 people cant get out of black hole. Take away black hole and she is just a very powerful neutral game character. Getting damage only from punishes isn't all that great, most characters can get about 3.5k-4k from an anti-air so her getting a lot from her punishes is understandable. She lacks the ability to do any serious threats from things like 5a or 2a, her pressure is average and her mixup comes at a risk of her losing all pressure. Either 6b or jc instant OH, on block both options leave Kokonoe vulnerable to the opponents pressure. Her pokes are limited in what they can do so its like, to me, when are you really taking all this insane damage. She is very momentum oriented, with a properly placed CA or burst she is back to square one. Keep in mind that her neutral is also very meter consuming, more so than her pressure. I can see why everyone would believe she is OP but you guys are only looking at the pros, what about her cons?"

Edit: "This doesnt mean I dont think she is top, she probably is. However, iv seen worse top-tiers

RAGNA"

~Shiro

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=52Y9E0tAv8M&feature=youtu.be

LMAO

[NerdJosh]

Just leaving this here..

https://twitter.com/NerdJosh/status/420689502948962304

https://twitter.com/GODSGARDEN_jp/status/420793864895463424

She's a character that needs balancing but if you are on the qualm of banning her without actually learning the matchup I don't feel you'll get far in many fighting games. Especially with that mentality.

[Skye]

wow you're going to castrate her. some are ok but the list as a whole is a bit much.

btw, 6[a] 2c works, so highly doubt non jc 6[a] will hurt her too much.

I know, the big ones are the supers and Graviton meter details.

Graviton activate is way too good to be so cheap on the gauge, the whole gauge system is in and of itself way too lenient. Every other gauge system has a cool down period, the main goal of that would be to force Kokonoe players to actually manage their Graviton gauge and pick their moments, right now, IMO there is too much freedom with it, like what's the point of a gauge even being there?

Also super ball should not be a dp, I know I want two nerfs for it, but one or the other is fine, it really should just serve its obvious purpose of just setting up crazy oki with graviton.

Also I meant no jc on uncharged 6a on block. It's fine on hit.

[Yazumatto]

Not really true. Litchi wasn't mediocre in CS2 and not in EX. Bang and Jin didn't go to the bottom of their games, although the contrast is pretty large (and jin has a large population to whine, same as ragna). Ragna is still quite good in CP, and Hakumen is still S in CP, no matter how you want to justify it... CT to CS is whatever, it was the very first game. There's many more examples of chars staying consistent, even including top tiers who you'd think should get nerfed, or bottom tiers who you'd think should get buffed.

To be clear, I wasn't saying mediocre to mean "first-to-last tier list" freefall; just that they were noticeably nerfed. Litchi was still good in CS2 but IIRC she was worse off in EX. Bang was pretty bleh in CS2 and Jin in EX. CP Ragna is certainly capable, just bleh and I know and said Hakumen is still S in CP. The dude still got nerfed though and overall system changes are what made him the TOD king.

Their consistency in balancing in other characters is a thing, yes. However, those characters weren't considered problems so ArcSys was left to their own devices.

Just because I'm feeling defensive when I woke up today, I've said nothing here about who I want to get buffed. I did indicate about four characters that could stand being mid-bottom tier for once though.

[NecroTheReaper]

It really makes me uneasy how people are rushing to take away every last one of her defensive options that she doesn't really have O.o I mean, I hate Koko's opness atm, but nerfing both her offense and defense would piss off the masses of Koko fans, possibly making her even more OP in the next BB after she gets nerfed. The only things I have an issue with her are:

-Graviton meter existence is almost just a cosmetic application so people can get the illusion of "she cant keep that out forever"

-H-invul of 6A made a definite amount instead of "as long as charged"

-Guaranteed projectile of super ball changed, keep reversal properties

-Change black hole to have like command grab properties or reduce damage massively. Command grab properties being it wiffs if jumped.

Koko is too good atm, but I don't wanna see her trash tier, where else would I get to look at a sexy cat scientist wearing a thong?

[WintySoSolo]

she's like 60 dude

u like grandma

no srs they took away all of nu's defensive options and she's still perfectly fine lol

[Star-Demon]

We banned Macros over paranoia and prognostication. If we ban, Kokonoe, it would be for more than that, I'm sure.

[PozerWolf]

-Graviton meter existence is almost just a cosmetic application so people can get the illusion of "she cant keep that out forever"

I've kinda notice that when playing Koko.

I've been doing combos from random posted combos videos and whatever the jap bss and friends tell me, and during training mode I notice I'd drain the gravitation meter rather quickly for some of the more optimal combos.

I thought this was going to be an issue, having to manage gravitation, but playing real matches I've never had to worry about it even when landing those combos multiple times.

there's no plan to ban any character from tournament. but I know we have to watch her carefully.

That last part of the quote, I wonder of a lot of people have cried about it over to the staff.

With that said, when is the next God's Garden? I'd like to see one where Kokonoe is allowed.

BTW, I continue to thank you'll for the feedback.

[Kurushii]

I believe the next Online Godsgarden is later this month. Tsujikawa (Koko) won the finals in December which oddly enough still aren't up for archive viewing on YouTube. If you want to watch the grand finals I recorded it here https://mega.co.nz/#!YQwgSQ5b!CFI-9CJf9r7Qg3jKuFXIGGZKzU48HUZalJrJLtKo8xU