Kokonoe or Brokonoe?

[TD]

l think being better than everyone at everything qualifies for a ban.

her weaknesses are barely weaknesses. any limits imposed on this character are just to make her seem dependant on strategic play, but then her overall mechanics make her gameplan extremely strong for little risk and often gamechanging rewards. shes the only character who can shift momentum in her favor any time she wants, anytime, anywhere, and again, at little risk.

most unblockables were taken out of the game only for this ho to get the best one of them all. how irritating.

[Skye]

I think the more pressing question to Loli Bacon is-and any Kokonoe player using this argument is;

How much "matchup data or experience with the character" is enough to make a solid decision and who are you to decide?

In fact, who or what group of people is even gonna make this kind of decision?

Learn the MU is too ambiguous of an argument, who are you to say that people haven't or are still in the process of learning? What if they have learned the MU and the MU just isn't what you're preaching it is or could be?

Once again, I'm neutral in the ban discussion, but I think she's OP and that she will not stop developing so other characters can play catch up, she will develop new bullshit just as other character COULD develop counter-measures to her current bullshit. She's ahead of the curb.

And I said OP, not broken, some people like to associate broke characters will those the likes of ST Akuma, Ivan Ooze, Casey Jones (Genesis ver. TMNT:TF), characters who just don't follow the rules and do what they want.

Over-powered as in she's way too good as it stands, she has everything every other good character has except a command throw (However Black Hole could technically count as one) with no drawbacks or exploitable weaknesses. Come on, if your front line argument is "her 2a combos do shit damage" then there's something wrong, she has great mix ups, safe pressure, god like neutral, can directly manipulate other characters' neutral, has unblockable set ups, good damage, good damage conversion, terrifying oki, good hitboxes, good chip damage, great meter gain and a teleport. These are facts. Facts that won't be altered by MU exp.

Any argument that takes on assumptions is theory fighter and that cannot be a reliable argument. You could make any character sound not as good as they really are using those methods. In the real world, people get hit by instant overhead j.c in a blockstring or a reset, BH set ups are used, she kills slow characters who are forced to approach, her attacks can and has beat out other attacks easily. Every character has a problem fighting her to some degree that notably lets her stand out as that character.

She needs to come down quite a few pegs, sure people will qq, but it's necessary. There doesn't even need to be that many changes, but changes are needed.

imo This could be why ASW hasn't put her on arcade cabs yet, they're probably waiting til CP runs it's course and then CP2 or whatever comes about.

[Poultrygeist]

You're absolutely correct with all of that. ST Akuma is an awful comparison because that motherfucker can't even be stunned, the only way Koko would be on his level was if she had infinite overdrive and barrier or some stupid shit like that. Like you said I think Arcsys is trying to give it time (probably another full year if I had to guess) before they make their decision and unleash her upon the arcade version. If we get a balance update I'd imagine it would be at the very least not until the one year anniversary of console launch which would be two years after the arcade launch anyway, that's pretty obviously enough time to gauge what they need to do.

EDIT: For the record I'm not trying to defend the character's stupidity, I'm just saying that Arcsys are probably waiting as opposed to making such a serious decision so early.

[Pete278]

She has a command grab, its her 4f astral.

[Loli Bacon]

snip

I agree with this completely. Again, I'm not saying she's weak, I'm just saying she's not ban worthy. She's still stupidly overpowered.

l think being better than everyone at everything qualifies for a ban.

This logic doesn't really make sense. There are plenty of characters that are clearly better in every way in fighting games and aren't banned. The issue is whether or not allowing Kokonoe to stay unbanned will affect the longevity of the game.

To be honest, the game will die in a few months anyway; the current anime FGC is extremely fickle. Whether you ban her or not, the game will die soon. Do we think the health of the game will maintain if she is banned at tournaments?

I just don't think the character has been out enough, played at a high enough level against enough characters for us to make an assessment. I can play her all day and tell you "I think this character is stupid and overpowered, but shouldn't be banned" but that's just one perspective. Do we have enough players that have played against good Kokonoes to the point where they feel they couldn't improve on the matchup? Do you really think that in two months time, every character in the game has a competent player behind them that has learned the matchup? I think it's far more likely that people would simply ban her rather than deal with her or bother learning the ins and outs of her; it's the easier solution. This is why I suggested making a match-up chart; sarcasm.

I just feel Kokonoe excels at telling the opponent not to fidget, and Blaz players aren't used to that.

[mAc Chaos]

Is she better than the top tiers from the previous games? Like CT Rachel / Nu, and CS1 Valk, etc. Because we didn't ban any of those. It sounds like everyone is saying she's even better than them.

Do we think the health of the game will maintain if she is banned at tournaments?

Well, you'd have a game with 5ish viable characters VS a game with most of the cast. So...

[Loli Bacon]

Well, you'd have a game with 5ish viable characters VS a game with most of the cast. So...

In Guilty Gear, every character was considered viable, and there were some 8-2 matchups in that game. Are you telling me that for everyone outside of those 5 characters, Kokonoe has 9-1/10-0 matchups?

Note: if you understand what I'm getting at, kudos.

[Myoro]

imo This could be why ASW hasn't put her on arcade cabs yet, they're probably waiting til CP runs it's course and then CP2 or whatever comes about.

Call me a pessimist, but I have a dark looming feeling she'll somehow manage to get buffed in CP2. (Prolly has something to do with our other resident cat-lady's reputation of defying the odds only to become even more S-Tier.)

Anywho, playing Kokonoe in BB is essentially bringing a gun to a knife fight. She's not impossible to beat but she's defiantly advantaged in a way that'll make other people salty. So now the age old question remains, how much salt does it take to get a character banned? And is OP grounds for a character ban? On one hand, if we just cross our arms and demand every OP character we come across be banned, we deprive ourselves the joy of proving ourselves against such foes. On the other hand Kokonoe's S*** is bananas and we can't tone the character down ourselves, so until Arksys does (if they do) we have no way of circumventing her BS without banning her.

Whatever the case, I hope it's dealt with speedily. I really like Koko's character, and I really wish there wasn't such a stigma about her as there is now. But to disregard what she is now would be a disservice to the many players who don't use Kokonoe, and that can not stand.

[Lucalibur]

To be honest, the game will die in a few months anyway; the current anime FGC is extremely fickle. Whether you ban her or not, the game will die soon. Do we think the health of the game will maintain if she is banned at tournaments?

Alright I'm gonna have to step in because if I don't say something about this I won't sleep well at night.

This is bullshit. There are still a lot of people playing anime FGs, not just here but in many other sites as well. The only reason people get the idea it's 'unstable' is because people like you(no intended offense) go around saying it's the case, so they get discouraged and move away from it, resulting in a self fulfilling property. Please try avoiding saying stuff like that when you can, it doesn't do the community any good to have people going around saying it's gonna die.

As far this topic goes, I find the current situation to be similar to the ones in competitive Pokemon when the suspecting(and possible ban) of a Pokemon are being considered, so I have some experience with it. It's pretty much agreed by everyone Kokonoe is too strong, but there is a mix of people that think 'she is strong enough to be banned' and people that don't.

How about we look at this from another viewpoint? Instead of discussing if she is OP enough to be banned, we should instead discuss how HEALTHY it would be to keep her around. That is, even if it's possible to manage her, is it worth the trouble? Is it healthy for the community and game to keep her around? Is the damage she may cause worth all of this in the HOPES she will get the nerf she deserves in a patch that may only come in months, if at all? For all we know she might only get nerfed in the obvious CP2.

I didn't really bother to read the past pages in detail, but personally I don't think she is a HEALTHY addition to the game, even if a manageable one. I am on the 'ban her until nerf' side of this whole mess due to that, because outside of Kokonoe all of the other top tiers, while definitely relatively powerful in comparison to the rest of the cast, are not enough to warrant any type of 'banning' discussion. Kokonoe is simply too much for this game, she damages it on a more fundamental level than just being the 'best' character. She hurts the game's health, and the community very likely won't be happy dealing with her shit, which can and WILL cause some damage to it.

Just my 2 cents.

[STenSatsu]

Is she better than the top tiers from the previous games? Like CT Rachel / Nu, and CS1 Valk, etc. Because we didn't ban any of those. It sounds like everyone is saying she's even better than them.

Well, you'd have a game with 5ish viable characters VS a game with most of the cast. So...

She's definitely not better than things like CT Rachel/Arakune or CS1 DLC. Probably not even better than CS1 Litchi. Also still have to be a good player to beat other good players with her. It's still Tsujikawa and Matoi regardless of whether they are playing Koko or Tao. Ya, much of the cast probably goes 3-7 with her, but I disagree that that eliminates them from tournies. Especially in America where the play level is significantly lower. (Though I guess that runs both ways.)

[Fistmaster049]

She's definitely not better than things like CT Rachel/Arakune or CS1 DLC. Probably not even better than CS1 Litchi. Also still have to be a good player to beat other good players with her. It's still Tsujikawa and Matoi regardless of whether they are playing Koko or Tao. Ya, much of the cast probably goes 3-7 with her, but I disagree that that eliminates them from tournies. Especially in America where the play level is significantly lower. (Though I guess that runs both ways.)

I can kinda see what your getting at but I think it was established earlier that the skill level of countries doesn't really matter, especially when we are talking about this specfic character which has been known to take down players who are known for being "godly" easily

My personal stance on the matter as of late is pretty much agreeing with Lucalibur on most accounts, she should be banned until Arc notices and nerfs her, she isn't healthy for the scene by just being known as "that one character that is better than the entire cast".

I,like a lot of people, don't feel like watching a major in a few months featuring nothing but Kokos just because at least 80% of the rest of cast just can't compare to this one character and people picking her up out of salt

[Eshi]

She's definitely not better than things like CT Rachel/Arakune or CS1 DLC. Probably not even better than CS1 Litchi. Also still have to be a good player to beat other good players with her. It's still Tsujikawa and Matoi regardless of whether they are playing Koko or Tao. Ya, much of the cast probably goes 3-7 with her, but I disagree that that eliminates them from tournies. Especially in America where the play level is significantly lower. (Though I guess that runs both ways.)

Kokonoe is the best character to ever exist in Blazblue. Just because she requires more knowledge and effort than spamming curse on block or j2C guard break doesn't change that. She would shit on them with drive and setplay if they were in the same game, just like she does now. The only character that comes close in power is CS Valkenhyn, who also should have been banned but the game was mostly over by then.

[Loli Bacon]

I'd say Kokonoe is on par with CT Rachel in terms of set play, pressure and damage.

What makes the difference is Rachel had better mixups and Kokonoe has better neutral. Kokonoe has unblockable setups, Rachel had guaranteed guard break setups.

[Errol]

I think people don't like to play against kokonoe, and possibly having to is likely to reduce attendance to whatever events there are. I see enough japanese people on my twitter that refuse to play against her. I've seen N-O say he 100% doesn't want to play rachel: kokonoe in a gods garden final, and talking about picking her up. BB really isn't a game where you just change chars willy nilly. It takes a lot of work. If you have to pick up another character or quit/not go, plenty will quit/not go. That's all.

[xDaRkNeSsx JiN]

After having a chance to play Jiyuna while he was here and messing around with the character I have come to this conclusion.

In no way, shape, or form should Kokonoe be banned. She is an EXTREMELY good, without question the best in the game. But to think of her as reason not to play the game is taking it a bit too far. I play Jin, and I feel that the matchup is very hard, but winnable. And the only Kokonoe i have ever lost to was Jiyuna. Bad players cant pick her up and win instantly, which is something that a character that is worth banning would be imo. If any of you guys have ever played GGXX#R, then you will understand my feelings towards this. #R Eddie was an amazing character, like, one of the best characters to ever be put in to and ArcSys game. He had unblockables,great pressure, and shitted on alot of the characters in the game. However, in most cases the better player would win. People need to understand that "random Koko #213123" is a lot different than Tsujikawa. The character is strong, but like most characters she has her weaknesses. Put the lab time in, grind out the matchup. Dont just bend over to her.

And she will be nerfed in the inevitable update so....

[Narroo]

I'd say Kokonoe is on par with CT Rachel in terms of set play, pressure and damage.

What makes the difference is Rachel had better mixups and Kokonoe has better neutral. Kokonoe has unblockable setups, Rachel had guaranteed guard break setups.

Is Kokonoe as bad as old Justice or Kliff?

[Loli Bacon]

Is Kokonoe as bad as old Justice or Kliff?

No.

[WintySoSolo]

Put the lab time in

provide me with a kokonoe player who will sit there in free training mode online and do whatever I tell them too, and I will.

otherwise please ban dlc characters.

not for being broken

but for being dlc characters

[Pen_Ninja]

provide me with a kokonoe player who will sit there in free training mode online and do whatever I tell them too, and I will.

What exactly do you plan to lab that requires someone else to control the Kokonoe for you?

Most stuff you need to practice against can be set up to record and play the training dummy. The only thing I can think of that's an issue is wake-up super ball which can be hard to make a training dummy do at the right time. It's still doable though, just with some trial and error.

[WintySoSolo]

What exactly do you plan to lab that requires someone else to control the Kokonoe for you?

i'm not paying extra money for a character I have no intention of playing simply so I can learn to fight them, hence I need someone else to do it for me.

hence ban dlc characters

[Kurushii]

i'm not paying extra money for a character I have no intention of playing simply so I can learn to fight them, hence I need someone else to do it for me.

hence ban dlc characters

So are you going to pay money for the time spent of the Kokonoe player? We will never go the ban route simply because they are dlc. The community has accepted dlc and story unlock characters since BBCS.

[WintySoSolo]

yes and I'm saying

that's bullshit

that's stupid

the community is stupid for doing that.

i don't care about unlocks, whatever.

dlc characters should be banned for the reasons I stated back in post #57

"the community accepted it" well isn't kokonoe currently accepted? aren't we talking about changing what is currently accepted?

[Loli Bacon]

yes and I'm saying

that's bullshit

that's stupid

the community is stupid for doing that.

i don't care about unlocks, whatever.

dlc characters should be banned for the reasons I stated back in post #57

"the community accepted it" well isn't kokonoe currently accepted? aren't we talking about changing what is currently accepted?

Your argument is that you don't want to spend money to learn the matchup. Fun fact: you don't! Just play against one online. It will be harder to learn certain punishes than if you had training mode with her but hey, your call. If you don't want to spend money to go into training mode by yourself to learn her punishes, that's a handicap YOU CHOSE. You can still learn how to play against her without buying her.

[mAc Chaos]

DLC expenses are no different for competitive play than other overhead costs, like buying a stick, or traveling to majors. It's up to you how much you want to invest in it.

[Myoro]

Your argument is that you don't want to spend money to learn the matchup. Fun fact: you don't! Just play against one online. It will be harder to learn certain punishes than if you had training mode with her but hey, your call. If you don't want to spend money to go into training mode by yourself to learn her punishes, that's a handicap YOU CHOSE. You can still learn how to play against her without buying her.

Are you seriously saying that we should be expected to gain accurate or valuable data from a character who ALTERS YOUR MOVEMENT ITSELF AT WILL, all in the course of 99 second intervals, while she changes her own movements all the while? She has one of the most versatile styles of gameplay out there, with that kind of method we'll be playing BB4 before we have a hold on how to play against her.

Not having her is still certainly a handycap, but not one we chose.