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[Xrd] Sol Badguy Gameplay Discussion

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You mean 5HS, not 6HS? You can't combo off 6HS without counterhit usually

You can combo into HS Volcanic Viper off a high air hit 6HS, but that's about it really.

SynikaL: As for the issue you're having, it's difficult to diagnose given the advise you've already been given, so unless you're trying it on Venom or Zato or you're just not jumping forward for j.D or something, I can't really offer any additional advise.

 

what combos can i do after a fanfir and counter hti fanfir? so far all i got is dash 6p>2,HS or 5,HS (depending on the char) j,D>dive kick> follow up

 

After Fafnir, you go for either dash 6P, dash 5HS or dash Gun Flame (depending on how much time you have to reach the corner), then after that, the typical combo route is as follows: 5HS/2HS (JC) > j.D, falling j.D |> (delay) dash j.D, falling j.K (JC) > nj.D > Kudakero |> 6P > (delay) Bandit Revolver. Against lightweights, you can just (delay) dash j.D > Kudakero after the D-Loop rep instead.

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Not sure dude. As far as why they don't do DP, couple of times I tried it it was kinda inconsistent. Also I think oki off of 6HS is better than VV oki, though I'm still learning the game so I could be wrong. The extra damage from DP might not be worth it.

It looks lile most players prefer the safe route

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It looks lile most players prefer the safe route

Not really safe, just stronger, more advantageous oki

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You mean 5HS, not 6HS? You can't combo off 6HS without counterhit usually

 

 

f. as in "far". I guess I should have typed 5H. 

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You can combo into HS Volcanic Viper off a high air hit 6HS, but that's about it really.

SynikaL: As for the issue you're having, it's difficult to diagnose given the advise you've already been given, so unless you're trying it on Venom or Zato or you're just not jumping forward for j.D or something, I can't really offer any additional advise.

 

 

After Fafnir, you go for either dash 6P, dash 5HS or dash Gun Flame (depending on how much time you have to reach the corner), then after that, the typical combo route is as follows: 5HS/2HS (JC) > j.D, falling j.D |> (delay) dash j.D, falling j.K (JC) > nj.D > Kudakero |> 6P > (delay) Bandit Revolver. Against lightweights, you can just (delay) dash j.D > Kudakero after the D-Loop rep instead.

 

this works on fanfir CH only. unless im really miss timing it. they recover to fast after the 1st j.d

 

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never mind i got it down. funny thing is instead of j.k i just j.d>jc>j.D dive kick> follow up and it did the same exact damage. easier combo also. was doing it on ZATO

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AH, Final Ultima, I may have missed a detail - so this doesn't work on Venom? Because that's who I've been practicing it on. No wonder! I just tried it against Slayer and May and it worked fine. 

 

Why does it not against Venom? Is it a hurt box issue or a weight issue? And what's the variation?

 

-Kimosabae 

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It's a hitbox issue. It is possible to land it on Venom, but it's considerably more finicky than with other characters. You need a specifically delayed 2HS before the j.D leading into Kudakero. The longer the combo leading into it, the harder it is to land.

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Not really safe, just stronger, more advantageous oki

umm I call bullshit, I just tried and indeed you can get a dp after many of these. How the hell is a F+hs to nothing safer, stronger(....), and more advantageous then a DP knock down. If anything you have more damage, and more advantage after the DP then just a f+hs on knock down. Im putting this one down for the so simple people have over looked it and never thought of it for some reason idea.

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Well, when you get a 6Hs knockdown, you can time a regular meaty gunflame that can hit the opponent on the last active frames and have a really advantageous start to pressure. VV> TO is always good, but you are really close to the opponent unlike 6Hs, which puts you at risk to get thrown out. Also to do the same GF stuff you have to YRC because you don't have enough advantage, and you still have to worry about the way your opponent techs in the air too, in case they try to evade gf pressure that way. So maybe I shouldn't say better, because YRC shenanigans are pretty damn good. However 6Hs has more untech time, which makes it a knockdown tool with more advantage imo. Regardless, BR oki is the best because you have the most advantage and you are best set up for safe jumps and airdash mixup.

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Alright guys, remember to keep the combo route discussion out of the video thread.

As for the discussion at hand, as mentioned, while 6HS has significant recovery when left alone, you can still special cancel it during recovery. This leads into the potential for a safe, meterless meaty Gun Flame, an option not presented with Sol's other common forms of corner combo knockdown. Should you Yellow Roman Cancel that Gun Flame, it's even more advantageous than in other circumstances. This alone gives you a justifiable reason not to always necessarily go for HS Volcanic Viper, even when you can get the Tataki Otoshi afterwards (which isn't often, as pushback does become a factor, especially in longer routes). Not to mention the fact that in most optimal combos that allow it, damage scaling has already kicked in so hard that you're looking at barely any additional damage from HS Volcanic Viper -> Tataki Otoshi (3-5 usually), and aside from damage, there's really nothing that Tataki Otoshi knockdown does that Bandit Revolver knockdown can't do better.

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You can do a safe jump/low air dash/fuzzy jump/empty jump low/empty jump VV (to catch Throw OS) after VV and I think that mixup is far more likely to hit than most options after GF.

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Well empty jump VV does get thrown by throw/anti-air OS if they're on point with timing, they can throw you the frame you land. One reason I rarely used it anymore on players doing that well.

And BR is a more advantageous knockdown than anything as mentioned. Especially with a very high/far hitting BR (including 5HS before BR in standard ender but can't always do that in max possible damage combos). And by the way I looked briefly at this for high prorated starter like multiple airdash j.P to 1 rep to Fafnir and you get similar advantage to that with walk 6P 5HS BR, no delays iirc, BR hits far out instead of high up.

That youtube account shows 6HS ender to every corner combo when many or all he could BR just as well, or adding on a VV as mentioned. Doesn't really make them any less worth watching though, shows tons of optimized (minus ender) character specific routes.

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Again ill call bullshit, the video in question shows while in the corner, throw back dash, cross up power dunk.... But if youre gonna give some excuse like F+hs to dp is to awkward that point is moot since this video does that. Those cross up power dunks are very misable(at least in not hitting backwards). Thats not something like old games where cross up fafnir etc looked cool/combo videoish but were basically unmisable and easy as hell. Also BR in this discussion is also pointless as I am not aware of any set up that allows F+hs to combo to BR in a large combo period. Only dp or super does... And since super wastes meter obviously im only talking about DP.

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Also BR in this discussion is also pointless as I am not aware of any set up that allows F+hs to combo to BR in a large combo period.

Just to clarify, I'm pretty sure VR is talking about 6P or 5H to BR, not 6H to BR. The point is just that BR gives the most time for oki, which allows for stuff like air dash j.S hitting on the first frame of someone's wakeup, which VV knockdowns can't do (at least as far as I am aware).

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Well empty jump VV does get thrown by throw/anti-air OS if they're on point with timing, they can throw you the frame you land. One reason I rarely used it anymore on players doing that well.

Are you sure you can't just uppercut the very frame you land? Even if so, you can just do the air S VV right before landing then. You can even save meter on hit to combo. Also, I'm pretty sure that very low air dash j.P or air dash j.S will beat most 6P's when timed correctly.

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What do you guys do if the opponent forward techs your otg 2k gunflame yrc setup?  Is it actually air throwable? Is that player dépendant?

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What do you guys do if the opponent forward techs your otg 2k gunflame yrc setup? Is it actually air throwable? Is that player dépendant?

You get a free air throw, even if they neutral tech, and it's low enough to combo. The YRC allows you to do the air throw on reaction.

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Also BR in this discussion is also pointless as I am not aware of any set up that allows F+hs to combo to BR in a large combo period. Only dp or super does... And since super wastes meter obviously im only talking about DP.

Yeah I didn't mean comboing 6HS > BR, I meant 6P > delay BR and 6P > delay 5HS > BR (for those it works on). BR is being brought up because we're talking about strength of oki for different knockdown options.

 

Are you sure you can't just uppercut the very frame you land? Even if so, you can just do the air S VV right before landing then. You can even save meter on hit to combo. Also, I'm pretty sure that very low air dash j.P or air dash j.S will beat most 6P's when timed correctly.

I used to think you could, but eventually tested it in AC or +R. If you jump in on someone and hold up to jump, you can still get thrown when you land. To me that means it's impossible to make yourself throw invulnerable the frame you land. I'd be glad if I was wrong though. Yeah there are other ways to punish their throw like those, I wanted to mention that about empty jump options.

 

What do you guys do if the opponent forward techs your otg 2k gunflame yrc setup?  Is it actually air throwable? Is that player dépendant?

Like Kikuichimonji said you can air throw their tech. However there are some quirks to this setup that make it a lot weaker than I thought it was initially, at least vs most of the cast.

The timing you need to perform GF and the YRC to make the air throw absolutely guaranteed results in GF not connecting if the opponent chose not to tech. In that case GF whiffs as they wake-up and your oki is weaker. So you're still making a read on whether they want to tech or not. Problems also arise on characters with very slow face-up wake-up (Chipp, Sin).

So far this is what I've found to be true for everyone except Potemkin and Bedman, likely due to their fat hurtboxes and weight. Fat hitbox allows GF to connect closer up, and heavier weight puts them into wake-up faster after the OTG if they don't tech (allowing YRC instead of RC). Dash > OTG 2K makes GF tend to whiff on them too, so for what I'm talking about it's a walking forward > OTG 2K. Also I've gotten the ideal timing to catch forward and back tech, but not neutral. I think it should be possible to though.

Curious if this matches other people's findings with this oki.

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I'm sure most know this. But if your combo before an otg hit is longer the opponents wakeup if they don't tech seems to get shorter. So if you're testing 2k otg oki make sure to do a proper combo beforehand. Something short like 2D BR 2k otg will easily cause the gf to go past them before they get up.

Slayer is also kinda weird because when he techs he'll touch the gf earlier than other chars(lower vertical aerial hurtbox I guess). Making it hard to get that airthrow.

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I was havin difficulty against venom forwards tech, but I haven't hashed it in training mode. Does it differ after a long combo?

What are you guys finding is the right time to bust it out? Non dp characters I figure generally no, but my combos ending in dp I tend to try to use it to get time to do the high lows.

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I'm sure most know this. But if your combo before an otg hit is longer the opponents wakeup if they don't tech seems to get shorter. So if you're testing 2k otg oki make sure to do a proper combo beforehand. Something short like 2D BR 2k otg will easily cause the gf to go past them before they get up.

This is worth mentioning, I think they wake-up with the same timing, but when you do a full combo prior to the OTG it adds extra pushback which is needed for GF to not whiff behind like it tends to from short stuff as you say.

And yeah it's most beneficial from a VV knockdown since it allows for the stronger GF YRC mixups which isn't possible otherwise from VV. From BR there's less reason to bother with it since you can get the same strength GF YRC with immediate backdash GF YRC. or stronger with walk back GF YRC from the high/far BR hit. On Bedman and Potemkin though it should be more worth it since you've got a higher chance of a good outcome regardless if they tech or not. I still need to look at them neutral teching though since air throw timing changes.

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You can do a safe jump/low air dash/fuzzy jump/empty jump low/empty jump VV (to catch Throw OS) after VV and I think that mixup is far more likely to hit than most options after GF.

 

Most characters get up too quickly to allow a true safe jump setup from Tataki Otoshi. Chipp is one of the few where you still get a safe jump after that knockdown, which makes it more advantageous to go for the higher damage combos on him.

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Most characters get up too quickly to allow a true safe jump setup from Tataki Otoshi. Chipp is one of the few where you still get a safe jump after that knockdown, which makes it more advantageous to go for the higher damage combos on him.

I just tested against Sol and in the corner I got [j.P j.K dj.S j.HS > H VV > Otoshi, walk forwards safe jump j.S] to be a true safe jump that blocked uppercut, couldn't be jumped out of, and had to be blocked. I personally always go for a safe jump after Otoshi, and my own personal experience says that you can totally do a true safe jump off aerial H VV > Otoshi. Also, in the worst case scenario, you can do a pseudo safe-jump where you use j.HS as a true meaty at the peak of your jump for 1 hit and hold FD while it hits. If they reversal out, your FD comes out and you "safe jump" the VV. If they block, you can fall with a j.K or j.P to blockstring into a true safejump situation, or you can air dash afterwards to catch them switching block.

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Correct. Although empty jumps are impeded somewhat, safe jumps work perfectly fine. You can get a perfect safe jump on Sol and characters with equivalent or slower wake-up timing, and while some characters such as Ky wake up a little too fast for a perfect safe jump, Vapor Thrust and similar reversals are slow enough that it's fine if you have to initiate j.S a frame or two early.

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