[Xrd] Axl Gameplay Discussion

[Epic]

2HS knockdown?

 

Well except the Benten nerf most of this is really interesting.

[greatfernman]

2H change is "can get knockdown off counter hit" btw not that it KDs on regular hit

[MoralHazardPay]

God I'm thankful for the Rashousen change. Does this mean that on counterhit you can't combo into Dust off a 2HS though?

 

Also, the Benten change is just to the second hit I'd assume.

 

Does this also mean they walked back all the previous changes or that this is in addition?

[Yannick]

It looks like the only changes that were walked back were Rensen YRC and the first hit proration on Rensen.

 

The dream... D:

 

At least we still have the untech time on it.

[00000000]

Thanks to @HiagoXYZ for the translations

Axl's 2nd loketest 1.10 change:

- 5K: hitbox increased

- 2HS: gets knockdown now

- 2D: startup reduced from 10f to 8f”

- Stance: gets meter now when using follow-ups; adjusts made to follow-up's total frames/timing you can use it

- Stance low follow-up: hurtbox appears before hitbox does now

- Stance: adjusted follow-up's untech time and float on hit; follow-up has increased hitbox

- Bentengari: startup increased from 30f to 35f

- Rensengeki: untech time increased

- Rashousen: no longer [4]6H, it's now 41236H

 

Damn! I was excited to play with Rensen YRC!

 

I suppose I'm a scrub, sad about Benten startup because I use it a ton.

[setsu113]

They fuck up axl all over again. 41236 for rashousen wtf ?

And still no link for 2h>2d cmon.

yrc rensengeki was the best .. well there's one more location test hpe they change him up some more

[Dullyanna]

Yeah being able to do 6hs yrc to reset pressure without having to give up charge hella early or else you'll get accidental unblockable is awful. Losing rensen yrc is def a shame though. 2h 2d was some +r shit, at least it's getting a buff to begin with lol. I'll happily take a kd off ch. I'm still hella looking forward to using Axl with the overall changes.

[Kumlekar]

- Rashousen: no longer [4]6H, it's now 41236H

omg omg omg omg You mean I can 6H after blocking for a long time? WOOT!

 

=( on the benten change though.  30f is already long.

[Epic]

Well Japanese players are already spamming the shit out of Benten so I guess that's justifiable. 

 

But no more Rensen YRC makes me sad ; /

[APinkBuny]

While I like the extended hitboxes to Standing K,P and the new gat links, it'll make our approach slightly less telegraphed.

Sweep being 8F now is awesome as it should be able to beat some more moves now which is great.

 

Rensen IMO should have kept it's YRC ability. I mean all other projectiles have this ability. Granted ours now knockdowns but it's not like we have a whole lot of tools to KD people.

Benten going from 30 to 35 is some thing I don't understand. At 30 we can still be punished for whiffing it so why make it even easier to do so?

Stance I feel is now even worse than before. It already extended our hurtbox and is beaten by every move and knocks us down.

 

Imo with these changes to the changes they should just remove the hurtbox to sickle normal's if we don't have the free ability to KD people as freely as the rest of the cast.

[MoralHazardPay]

I still don't understand the Benten change. Did they mean recovery? Since right now 623S (which is what I'm assuming they are referring to, not the super) is 9f startup, 30f of recovery

[Kumlekar]

Beging an idiot, I'm removing this post. 

[HeWhoRocksAlot]

I still don't understand the Benten change. Did they mean recovery? Since right now 623S (which is what I'm assuming they are referring to, not the super) is 9f startup, 30f of recovery

Yeah, it was on the recovery frames, it was mistranslated into start-up frames. Should had double check for mistakes there.

Well anyways, we can use SRK translation.

and Yosuke is giving his feed on Axl again on his Twitter.

[Digital Watches]

I'm okay with all the changes honestly. The extra recovery on DP makes sense: Right now a lot of characters can punish it on block, and the ones who can't probably can with the change. This means that if you're using the DP in the wrong situations, you'll be punished for it more consistently, but since it's not more startup, you still get all the benefit of actually guessing right. While this is technically a nerf, it may from a behavioral optimization standpoint be a buff to most players, as if you're playing a matchup in your local scene that can't effectively punish you for bad DPs, you might be surprised when you encounter one that can.

I wish they had left in rensen YRC but... honestly it would probably be way too good. Rensen covers the entire ground, hits enough times and moves fast enough to cleanly beat any other projectile in the game (Either by hitting the opponent and knocking them down, or by nullifying it),  and it's on a character that can pretty effectively cover the entire air. Having that tool would mean that for 25% meter and however many frames it takes the projectile to come out (I'm guessing something like 5-10, considering the 12f startup until the first active frame and other projectiles in the game, like Ky's stun edge, which can be YRC'd and come out on frame 4 supposedly), you get to win basically any situation that's not in throw range. While competitively I wish I had that tool, from a game design perspective it makes sense not to have it.

8F sweep is a huge neutral game buff, it means you get to win a lot of exchanges from max sweep range that you wouldn't have otherwise.

And also, WHY IS NO ONE TALKING ABOUT f.S-2S? This is awesome. It's not only a much more confirmable combo route from CH 3P (If you throw out 3P-f.S consistently, you get a decent string on block and can go into 2S on hit, whereas now you have to abort your string, throw out a 5K or 5P, or at least cancel straight into 2S), but also wins you situations where you swung at them with f.S but they jumped, or went for OS-throw with slash and they jumped back, or you got spaced out of c.S range when anti-airing. Now that's a confirm into 2S-TKB for knockdown or sometimes BLoop. I'm pretty okay with this.

These changes mean that not only does winning a neutral exchange usually get you knockdown (Not landing rensen off a ground string is an anomaly, and CH 2H being a sweep now means you'll get a lot more off that now, though I wish it just went into 2D like +R), but also, a lot of your hits are going to be a lot more rewarding. They've also given Axl a few buffs to winning the neutral game in the first place, which means not having him in blockstun is going to be a serious problem for a lot of characters.

And of course since we're Axl, you've got to remember that your neutral game is basically also your pressure game. Standing 4 character widths away in the corner is going to be even harder to break out of.

[Kumlekar]

I probably didn't notice that link because I almost never use 3P.  I've never really figured out where I want to use it which is why I used to always lose to shining aquas.

[GuerrillaTactic]

First thing I'd like to ask is how people use the 2 hit super? It just seems like big daddy pants (and by that I mean the English underwear and not the American trousers). The damage is meh, the follow ups are meh and the things that can be done with RCs are superior so I'm guessing I'm missing something with it so could some one enlighten me.

New stance is pointless, I helps loads in the match ups that Axl already won by design but it does nothing for Axl against Millia, Chipp and their ilk. In addition, if the move is blocked it's already punishable so I don't see why they needed to make it worse in recovery.

Rensen knock down is really good but it is something that Axl should of had from the beginning really, I see it more as an Arc mess up that they are correcting rather than anything else. One small combo based buff that works because of a combination of other changes is being able to end all corner bomber loops in Rensen ~ down pull. 5P having a bigger hit box will help with the lighter & smaller characters which you can only hit with 5S to high to get the Rensen to connect. Greater untech time on Rensen and quicker down pull means less of that annoying bobble off the top of Rensen and tech before the follow up connects.

The really good things for Axl are changes to 5P, 5K, (f)S 2S chain but I do worry about range on a (f)S 2S combo, it might be useful if (f)S combod into 6K but we'll have to see how things go.

One thing I disagree with is the YRC removal on Rensen. Look how the system negatively effects Axl just by design. Axl has some of the longest range normals and have some of the largest hurt boxes. Add in slow down from everything and it's mother when you YRC means that almost any rangey normal you have can get you blown up. Now look at Sol, gun flame YRC slow down means you just aren't ever getting out cleanly and Sol has a very healthy mix up game. I'm not saying Axl needs a good mix up game but being able to get in on some one with Axl's up close tools are not over powered.

2HS changes are also strange, if 2HS CH knocks down, then does the 2nd hit not connect otg now? You can't really get a CH on the second hit so I'm still a little baffled how this will look. I'm also interested in how j.D will now work but I'll have to see it in action first. For Axl to be really good I think Axl needs to either fundamentally change his play style or the system has to change because right now, the way he's designed is a little at odds with the system although he is still a lot more fun than a lot of the cast because you have to actually think.

[MoralHazardPay]

The pull in super? I think the only time you get more off it than an RC is off a counterhit 2P at range where an RC wouldn't help you much (maybe a 5P as well?), as the only other time I can see it being used against a grounded opponent is off a f.S, but an RC does more there. It does wallstick against aerial opponents in the corner, so there might be some use there?

[Horokei]

Overdrives don't cut tension gain after using so you can build some tension back. With Axl's bad tension gain, nerf of TG penalty after RC from 4 to 6 seconds and buff of Kairagi, Pachi tell us to use it.

[Yannick]

snip

 

1] Shark Strike is great. It can be used as a fullscreen punish, wallsticks in the corner from a juggle, and turns j.S into a full combo on most characters. It's an overdrive, so if you need to close out the round and lock someone's Burst but don't feel like relying on the Worst Overdrive of All Time™, then Shark Strike can also help with that. Of course, it's not as versatile as RRC, but few things are. Shark Strike definitely has its uses.

 

2] New stance is mostly pointless, but if it helps win matches that were already in Axl's favor, then just use it to tip the scales even further in those matchups and forget about it in the rest. No sense trying to use a key when it won't unlock the door you want. The changes are likely for lower level players who (still) whine about the move. It being more punishable after initially being punishable already shouldn't affect the decision making regarding this move, I think.

 

3] Who knows why Rensen didn't have knockdown in 1.0. Maybe they thought they'd try something different; I don't think anybody really knows. Rensen buff is awesome. After a Bomber loop in the corner though (assuming 2-3 reps), would it even make sense to go into Rensen~2? I don't think you can safe jump off of that and the damage that late in the combo doesn't seem like it'd be worth it. I guess maybe it's a matchup dependent kind of thing? If you can safe jump off of it, though, then yeah, that sounds great. Maybe ending with just Rensen is fine if you can't, though.

 

4] I'm glad for any buff to f.S gatlings. I think it's a stellar move, but there's very little to gain from using it well at the moment (in my opinion).

 

5] YRC Rensen is what it is (or isn't). I wouldn't say the system negatively affects Axl, but that Axl fails to take advantage of it. If you whiff chains with Axl, you get beat up regardless of whether you were the victim of YRC slowdown or not. Offensively, I just wish I had faster reaction time to YRC my own normals aside from 2H (and even that I miss from time to time) when they whiff on a bad look from me.

 

6] I'm sure the new 2H CH will resemble counter hit carry over from other games, where, if the first hit of a multi-hit move is a counter hit, then rest of the move is either counter hit or retains counter hit properties. The second hit of 2H would probably knock down in this case. Or maybe I'm wrong and 2H(1) knocks down, but pops the opponent high enough to fly over 2H(2). That would look kinda silly, but would be awesome to RRC on. >:D

 

I want to see j.D also. It sounds weird and fun but goofy and awkward all at the same time. I do agree that Axl's build is at odds with the generic game system, but he has his own ways of trying to fit in. He is super fun, but I would like it if he had a bit more grime like he used to.

[Digital Watches]

Honestly, Axl benefits a ton from Xrd mechanics. Axl's biggest problem has always come from getting baited into bad calls, and before YRC, you had no way to abort a normal that was going to get you hit. Considering that your guesses are bigger than most characters', and you can tell whether they were wrong pretty early, Axl gets a lot of mileage out of having 25% meter compared to the rest of the cast.

That said, I do think the fireball YRC situation in particular is a huge problem for Axl. Fireball YRC for Ky means he can get a stun edge across most of the screen in effectively 4-5 frames (If we consider the freeze frames to happen simultaneously, which it doesn't, but I don't know all of the math behind YRC slowdown), which means now he has pressure from ranges that weren't a problem before. Other characters with full-screen projectiles, like Leo, I-No, Venom, and arguably Zato also have this property. I suspect this is why they gave Axl true fullscreen tools like sparrowhawk stance in the first place, but with the huge startup and hurtboxes, it's basically useless for that purpose, and while shark strike is a little better, it's still not great. Honestly I wish they'd just give Axl back his old 63214H, or make the sparrowhawk followups standalone rekkas with slightly more startup, or something. 

 

That said, I think being able to tag someone with a KD when they're trying to do that shit will at least be pretty useful, as at least now when Axl tosses rensen at a fireball YRC, the opponent will more often than not be spending the meter just to block the rensen and not be in an oki situation. I'd love to see what we could do with rensen YRC being a thing, but Arc has seemingly deliberately avoided giving Axl this ability since XX, so I'd be surprised if it ended up in the final version.

[Kumlekar]

Honestly I was just hoping to have the rensen yrc to have something like the AC FRC for pressure.  I'm sure they removed it because of the extreme range and speed of rensen, but it still makes me sad.

[00000000]

I'm hoping that ArcSys is taking a calculated approach to the Patch and not incremental. Meaningthat I hope each of the tests is trying different things to see what works and how and not starting with a bunch of changes and the whittling them down with each progressive test.

 

I suppose it's all conjecture.I'm happy to have more Knockdown ability but in Xrd I struggle with projectiles on wake up. Not being able to swat them without meter puts me (at least) in a bad spot. YRC Rensen would be fun but I, personally, would rather just have a more reliable way of dealing with Projectiles on wakeup.

[Digital Watches]

You're not going to have the AC FRC even if they do let us YRC rensen. In AC, you were primarily using rensen FRC in pressure because it gave you huge frame advantage to reset your pressure for 25% meter. With the change to RCs that says "You always get RRC if they're in blockstun", we wouldn't get the consistent blockstun either way. You can already use rensen RC like it was used in AC, sort of, but it costs 50%, and it still will if they allow the projectile to release. I might be able to come up with some frame traps that utilize the fact that 2D-Rensen doesn't actually form a real blockstring from most ranges to get the meter efficiency back, but that might still open us up to invulnerable reversals like Leo super, so it's never going to really be the same tool.

[Baf0]

Agreed. The system mechanics won't allow for a "Rensen FRC" type of thing. You can already do stuff like c.S-f.S-Rensen YRC in blockstrings without having the projectile come out, though even if it did come out some characters would probably beat it with reversals/supers.

 

It'd be cool to see regardless.

[00000000]

Think I"m getting burnt out already. The more I play recently, the worse Axl seems. My fear is that I was really only getting wins due to lack of character knowledge. Now I'm consistantly losing to Runaway Ram, Knockdown Millia, Everyday Zato, Runaway Ky, Rekka Leo, Runaway Elphelt, Knockdown Sol. Hell, Pot and Slayer players have been giving me a real hard time too.

 

I may need to take a break or something because I suddenly suck.