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[Xrd] Axl Gameplay Discussion

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It helps to remember that you can frame-bully Zato really hard before he gets a knockdown. He may be able to play at the range you can play at, but his shit isn't fast enough to actually compete there.

Can I ask you to elaborate on the frame-bullying a bit more? Seems that I am losing out there more than I should be, so it would be good to know what to focus on in that situation. 

 

EDIT: How have you been good sir? I just realized you were the guy that bodied me on stream at Evo in AC+R this year (I was that awful Baiken that kept bursting at the wrong times because I knew absolutely nothing about Axl XD)

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From f.S max range, Zato has nothing as fast as f.S. From 3P max range, Zato can 2S but that's it. From 2K max range, anything as fast as 2K will get dodged by 2K. You have a DP. 2H is an excellent poke. j.S and rensen can pretty effectively shut down attempts to zone you out because they get where they need to faster than drills or raw eddie summon can work. In short, your neutral and pressure game roll Zato pretty hard. He needs to work to get his game running, so don't let him have it for free by not keeping on top of him.

And uh, hi! I'm sorry I only remember you pretty vaguely. I've been okay. You?

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From f.S max range, Zato has nothing as fast as f.S. From 3P max range, Zato can 2S but that's it. From 2K max range, anything as fast as 2K will get dodged by 2K. You have a DP. 2H is an excellent poke. j.S and rensen can pretty effectively shut down attempts to zone you out because they get where they need to faster than drills or raw eddie summon can work. In short, your neutral and pressure game roll Zato pretty hard. He needs to work to get his game running, so don't let him have it for free by not keeping on top of him.

And uh, hi! I'm sorry I only remember you pretty vaguely. I've been okay. You?

Doing all right man! You were part of the reason I picked up Axl to begin with. Not surprised you wouldn't remember clearly (I was kinda free LOL)

 

Anyways thanks for the detailed description! It reaffirms what I thought before: Axl can handle Zato fine. Just needs to do what he does best.

 

Also, is everyone on board with the doom and gloom surrounding Axl in this game? Every tier list places him at or around Potemkin, all conversation about him (all two second of it) in the tier thread makes it sound like he's dead, and Gonzaburou dropped him for Faust recently. As I keep playing him I never feel like he's THAT weak, or even weak to begin with. I get being upset over some of the stuff he lost (2H-2D gatling and dragging P chains for example) but he still feels fine to me. 

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I don't know about doom and gloom, but I can see where other people are coming from. I feel like Axl is one of those characters you have to play to find out why he's weak, though. Personally, I think he's quite fun still, but maybe it's the fact that I only played AC Axl which makes me miss the real grime this character used to have. Axl doesn't seem as bad as he seems honest. He just doesn't seem to have the super grimy tricky nature he did in AC (at least, in my opinion). On top of the honesty, he lost some of his easymode things like P chains (but I think the current P chains are faster...?), some of his great gatlings, some of his old counter hit effects and then to round out the losses, his old tactics with FRCs and many of his routes to really big damage have now become quite expensive.

 

I think it's easy to see that Axl, when compared to other characters in this game, just isn't as ridiculous as most of them, but he still plays a good game. I think coming up with an effective gameplan is a bit difficult and it seems to me as though the game forces Axl to try to be more aggressive even though his changes don't really promote that too well (which is weird). I think Axl can really throw his weight around in the tension/RISC control areas (forcing FD, building RISC with 2H/Rensen/long gatling blockstrings) and he has his natural control/reaction game (great DP, good normals, GREAT corner carry) to use, but he doesn't seem to have access to the kinds of crazy things most other characters can do.

 

Despite how relatively little they mean in such a small game, Axl is probably low on these lists maybe not because he's bad, but perhaps because he's probably just not ridiculous.

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First of all, let's be clear: the P chains going back to #R status is a buff. They're way faster than they were in AC/+R and you almost never need them to drag if you can chain into 6K anyway. Also, being "not ridiculous" in a game where everyone else is makes you weak. Characters don't exist in a vacuum. But this is Guilty Gear, so I'm fine with playing a lower tier character because he's still viable and still does what I want. It's just more work without that rensen FRC or rensen knocking down (Still a dumb change)

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New 5p is da god as they say.  Honestly I think that axl being low tier is completely whatever because the system mechanics throw tiers out of the window, YRC and PRC are both huge buffs in Axl's favor and will allow you to catch people doing things you never could have in previous versions.  Plus the fact we have a great DP now means that we can actually get people off of us much more reliably.

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New 5p is da god as they say.  Honestly I think that axl being low tier is completely whatever because the system mechanics throw tiers out of the window, YRC and PRC are both huge buffs in Axl's favor and will allow you to catch people doing things you never could have in previous versions.  Plus the fact we have a great DP now means that we can actually get people off of us much more reliably.

Doesn't change the fact that I'm going to miss the old 623HS and j.63214S moves.   =(

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I would imagine if you get the intuition to spot that range at which 2S won't connect properly, you can just jump cancel the 6K and strike with j.6P or j.S.

 

Or you can roman cancel and get into range for 2S. :D

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I often find it's fine to just let them tech there. Sets you up really well to tag them out of the air. If you really feel like they're outguessing you, then go for the RC into knockdown, but following up into j6P is seldom the right call IMO, since you're not getting KD but you're also putting yourself in a worse position to punish their tech. Also noteworthy is that 6K still gatlings into 6H, which means you can use 6H as a positioning tool and YRC it if they tech unexpectedly early.

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Corner Block String.

I need a little help with a block string in the corner.

Here's the first set.

5K,4S,4H, [4]-6S

 

This of course pushes me out and is why I've been trying this for a second half.

6HS, 2K, 2D, [4]-6S

 

for the third

Dash into 3P, 4S, 1P, [4]-6S

 

The question is will all of this work as one long Block String. My execution isn't god like tho so I dunno if it actually all works as one long string.

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I don't think going into rensen is particularly relevant in this game unless you think they're going to get frametrapped by it (In which case you want it to come after 2D or f.S, not 5H) or if you get enough distance that it's the only thing that's going to hit (IE they're FDing you), or you're willing to RC it to reset your pressure and run back in (Like in previous games, but for twice the meter)

Since Axl doesn't have strong high-low mixup and you're not going to be able to keep them in blockstun for 10 full seconds like you could in +R, you're looking to spam them with frame traps. Go for things like (2K or 5K), 5K-3P ~ f.S, or c.S-f.S-5H, or c.S-2H, ~ f.S as your traps, then go for mixup like c.S-5H (A blockstring, trips them up if they're looking for the hole) or c.S-6H/2D (A mixup, but a slow one. Your goal is to draw their attention to your frame traps, try to get them to be looking for a hole, then either mix them up before they think it will come, or DP them for trying to swing. You can also use 5H-63214S if they're looking for the 6H, because for only 25% meter you can YRC it to be safe (And reset your pressure if they're blocking, since falling j.H and j.K are good string starters), you'll dodge a lot of swings with it and occasionally tag them with an ambiguous crossup.

Basically, you have to think more about your pressure, because your real blockstrings aren't that scary, but the fact that you can frame trap them from outside their effective range is.

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Ah cool I'll practice those frame traps. I didn't even know 5K can go into 3P. 

I still think that the first half 

5K,4S,4H, [4]-6S

Is a good setup but maybe I should Ren on the Slash instead.

I do miss my #R Axl but I'll get this guy down. I never played AC or +R tho. I did however play Reload for many many years. 

Ah so much I gotta work on but it'll be worth it.

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I don't think going into rensen is particularly relevant in this game unless you think they're going to get frametrapped by it (In which case you want it to come after 2D or f.S, not 5H) or if you get enough distance that it's the only thing that's going to hit (IE they're FDing you), or you're willing to RC it to reset your pressure and run back in (Like in previous games, but for twice the meter)

Since Axl doesn't have strong high-low mixup and you're not going to be able to keep them in blockstun for 10 full seconds like you could in +R, you're looking to spam them with frame traps. Go for things like (2K or 5K), 5K-3P ~ f.S, or c.S-f.S-5H, or c.S-2H, ~ f.S as your traps, then go for mixup like c.S-5H (A blockstring, trips them up if they're looking for the hole) or c.S-6H/2D (A mixup, but a slow one. Your goal is to draw their attention to your frame traps, try to get them to be looking for a hole, then either mix them up before they think it will come, or DP them for trying to swing. You can also use 5H-63214S if they're looking for the 6H, because for only 25% meter you can YRC it to be safe (And reset your pressure if they're blocking, since falling j.H and j.K are good string starters), you'll dodge a lot of swings with it and occasionally tag them with an ambiguous crossup.

Basically, you have to think more about your pressure, because your real blockstrings aren't that scary, but the fact that you can frame trap them from outside their effective range is.

So f.S is his best frametrap set up? I don't see how it can lead to a c.S into mix up given the range of the f.S. Or is the 3p the trap for the f.S?

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Yea after testing c.S just get's me pwned. It is usually punished or it completely wiffs. 3p is really good and the range of it will still allow you to connect with f.s.

I dunno the more I play around with c.S the more I hate the attack unless it's for AA options. Tho I'm just an avg player so maybe its on me on why it's getting me destroyed for using it.

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What I do with Axl, is to try to control space with the 5p, which prevents IAD and some jumping, to which their option is more to dash in, which I then use rensen coupled with 2p or 2h. Then j.s to keep them pinned. When I got the opening I try to rush down and land a simple mix up (i.e. 5k, 5d or 5k, 2d).

c.S is a great gatling and I'd love to use it more as it leads to mix up options. But yeah, so far I've found only occasional opportunities to use it.

Playing a more defensive game with Axl and only being selectively aggressive works for me.

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I think what I wrote was unclear, my apologies. I don't mean go for a frametrap that puts you out of c.S range, then try to hit c.S, that's obviously going to work 0 times ever. If you're throwing out c.S, it should be because it's guaranteed to be a blockstring already (because you started Oki or pressure with something more safe, like safe jump j.H) or as a throw OS, or anti-air. In your pressure, c.S is a connector piece. It's not the Mixup, but it's decent stun and goes into everything, including highs, lows, higher-blockstun moves, and of course jumping out.

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Got it. So it's about leaving a gap after c.S into the different options you mentioned as the frame trap.

What's a good follow up after blocked f.S though? My initial thought is a rensen, 6H, or 2H. Then restart pressure. 6H would be the best option though out if the 3 imo as a good CH fish.

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f.S into 6H would be a link, so it's a pretty huge gap. You could do it as a low crush if you suspect a low, but usually that's going to get you punished. Rensen is a small frame trap but I think wait into DP is a better one, You can special cancel into that or Raeisageki/ThunderShadow, and you can also go for a faster poke to beat their swing, like another f.S in some matchups, or a 5K or 2K.  You can also string into 5H, which is a frame trap but it's a gatling, so it's a smaller window than a link. 5H does a decent amount of stun, and is also still special-cancellable, as well as going into both 2D and 6H.

 

Lotsa good options, basically.

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Oh, yeah. c.S means close slash. Low attacks care about input, not state, so in airdasher land we write 2S.

 

Also dragon: IAD is way risker after a blocked f.S than run in low. You're still linking both, since f.S isn't JCable, but the low is way faster and more likely to dodge stuff, whereas an IAD is reactable and most characters have an easy answer to it.

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