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[Xrd] King Ky - Gameplay Discussion

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So now that the XRD Rev hit arcades,  what does everyone thing of the new blitz change?  Apparently you can get a full 6h confirm off of it connecting which is pretty baller.  I also feel it may make a lot of Ky's grinder oki a lot harder to use.  

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I'm going to the arcades this week in Tokyo. If you have tests, post them here.

Coul you please test what happen if they blitz and hold H against charged stun edge and charged stun edge on split ciel? I suspect this will be a really strong tool against Ky's oki. If so, please see if there's a way to punish them for doing it.

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Midscreen side dust combo that ends in Ciel and making sure 5D6 IK still works in the corner are my big two.

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This one's actually semi legit, I promise.  Someone tried it on stream and whiffed.  I'd like to know if it's because of the new wallstick animation, the shorter untech time on wall stick, or if he justu botched it.

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Please check if D~6 Corner combos still works,

 like

5S > 6P > 5HS > 3HS > Greed Sever > VT

 

and other

 

 

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I notice that after Ain gets a corner split ciel knockdown (say after a sweep ender), instead of going for a DC CSE YRC dashjump empty low/late airdash 50/50, he usually goes for microdash whiff split ciel, then do frame traps and cancel into DC CSE YRC to rebuy pressure if he gets pushed out. (example: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OPDSpLnu5eA#t=11m20s ) This route saves meter up front but leaves holes and seems weaker if they manage to actually block, and in any case seems weaker than just looping good damage 50/50s. Am I missing something about one of these options?

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its one of ain's tricks powered up cse yrc then try to air throw them back in if they try to jump out into vt loop if they sit and block you get a 50/50

 

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Right, I get how the setup works, I just don't get why it's worth giving them outs. If he'd just spent his bar straight up she wouldn't have had the option to jump out of the trap, in the example I linked, and that's not the only out. At first I thought this was a gimmick, but he really seems to go for it most of the time so I figure there must be more to it.

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The only advantage i'm seeing are the things you already pointed out, it might just be his preferred method of pressure? It looks like he's saving tension, maybe he wanted to save up for a big combo? He ended up using it to RC a throw into an awesome 4X VT loop!

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it's part of ain's playstyle, if you watch how he plays hes always having these situations where hes forcing guessing games

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the late airdash jS/ empty 5K(2S) is actually not a 50/50, there's a gap between the moment jS/5K hit that allow fuzzy guarding. I've been practicing fuzzy guard this kind of okizeme and figure out it's not too hard.
And even if it's a true 50/50, remember there's 50% chance opponent can block it, and you lose 25% tension for nothing. With the setup Ain did, he can chip out/ take opp's tension with 2 DC CSE, able to make a frame trap, and able to do an even scarier mixup
That's just my thoughts

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Either you tried it on Venom (fastest wakeup in the game) or didnt execute properly. DC CSE (YRC) is airtight.

I didn't say it's not air tight, maybe you misunderstood something here

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Wow lots of replies. I'll respond to all of them actually.

The only advantage i'm seeing are the things you already pointed out, it might just be his preferred method of pressure? It looks like he's saving tension, maybe he wanted to save up for a big combo? He ended up using it to RC a throw into an awesome 4X VT loop!

I don't think he's just saving meter because he burns 25% just as she jumps out, trying to airthrow her. Even if he were, sitting on the meter seems like a bad deal for a couple reasons. The first is the lost opportunity, he might not get that later throw. The second is expected value, the throw costs twice as much as the 50/50 and does (I think, havn't mathed it out) less extra damage. If you take the 50/50 to have half a chance of working, it's still a more efficient use of meter. Third, meter is renewable, you can see he has plenty by the time to build more before then.

I would say he went for the less efficient throw combo because it was likely to kill, although rewatching now, he has to draw out the burst before that point, so maybe the 50/50 is weaker when they have burst because you have to spend the meter upfront? I also notice that during the setup she has almost 50 meter, so playing around guard cancel could be a thing here, since Ky has to (afaik) hard bait  to play around guard cancel after spending meter for the 50/50.

So maybe you are right in some sense, that he's saving meter because it's risky to bet meter when the opponent has options like burst and guard cancel.

it's part of ain's playstyle, if you watch how he plays hes always having these situations where hes forcing guessing games

I'm always kind of wary of attributing choices to playstyle, because if you ask a player why they did something, they can usually give a concrete reason beyond "it's my style", like "it's good because it's meter efficient" or whatever. You might be right that it plays to his individual strengths as a player, though.

the late airdash jS/ empty 5K(2S) is actually not a 50/50, there's a gap between the moment jS/5K hit that allow fuzzy guarding. I've been practicing fuzzy guard this kind of okizeme and figure out it's not too hard.
And even if it's a true 50/50, remember there's 50% chance opponent can block it, and you lose 25% tension for nothing. With the setup Ain did, he can chip out/ take opp's tension with 2 DC CSE, able to make a frame trap, and able to do an even scarier mixup
That's just my thoughts

With setups like this, I think you can make it a true 50/50. Both parts are tight, so if the low is faster, you can just delay it to come at about the same time as the overhead. So when you go for this 50/50, the low is "very slight delay, then 2S", which is timed better and is also unprorated unlike 5K. You can see Karinchu getting hit repeatedly by basically the same 50/50 here https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WkRMAVPczKk#t=48m44s and I have a lot of respect for his defensive skills.

You're right that you risk burning the meter even though they block it, but as I mentioned above, the expected value on the setup is good. Also note that you're taking another risk by going for Ain's setup, that they might get out of the corner with minimal damage taken. I don't think you get a scarier mixup Ain's way. Frame traps and tick throws are good, but not as strong as a raw 50/50 for good damage, and even if the setup goes into a similar mixup if he goes for a later CSE YRC jump, it's not tight without a knockdown.

Either you tried it on Venom (fastest wakeup in the game) or didnt execute properly. DC CSE (YRC) is airtight.

Flick means that the low and the high don't hit at the same time, so you can block low where the low should be, then switch to blocking high where the overhead should be. I generally call this "rhythm blocking" since I feel it's more descriptive than "fuzzy guarding"

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Coul you please test what happen if they blitz and hold H against charged stun edge and charged stun edge on split ciel? I suspect this will be a really strong tool against Ky's oki. If so, please see if there's a way to punish them for doing it.

Since ground blitzing is split into high+mid/low now, when they start charging the mid BS to go through the setup, you can just hit them low. You can see it in action here https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WkRMAVPczKk#t=48m6s

edit - Looks like you can also back off, wait for them to whiff the blitz attack, then punish, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a6_ZcYx_hvs#t=16m31s

Edited by lofo

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Flick means that the low and the high don't hit at the same time, so you can block low where the low should be, then switch to blocking high where the overhead should be. I generally call this "rhythm blocking" since I feel it's more descriptive than "fuzzy guarding"

Fuzzy guard is a different thing, it's when the opponent is blocking low but the character is still standing, making overheads easier to hit.

"Flick" doesnt work on Ky's 50/50 mixup because the high and low come out virtually at the same. Many Ky players dont do the airdash j.S low enough or j.S early enough, giving the impression the mixup can be blocked without guessing.

Edited by Tong

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Fuzzy guard is a different thing, it's when the opponent is blocking low but the character is still standing, making overheads easier to hit.

Yeah it's also used in that sense. It has 2 meanings, which is confusing and another reason I prefer "rhythm blocking." In the sense Flick used it, it's in the same vein as "fuzzy jumping" but with blocking. You can see it used this way in game in the success message for Mission 34, "Fighting Millia pt2" (though they call it "fuzzy blocking")

Edited by lofo

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Since ground blitzing is split into high+mid/low now, when they start charging the mid BS to go through the setup, you can just hit them low. You can see it in action here https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WkRMAVPczKk#t=48m6s

edit - Looks like you can also back off, wait for them to whiff the blitz attack, then punish, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a6_ZcYx_hvs#t=16m31s

I wonder if there's time to air backdash when you're doing the corner setup, like here: 

https://youtu.be/WkRMAVPczKk?t=2928
 

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I'm always kind of wary of attributing choices to playstyle, because if you ask a player why they did something, they can usually give a concrete reason beyond "it's my style", like "it's good because it's meter efficient" or whatever. You might be right that it plays to his individual strengths as a player, though.

i think its a well known fact for years that ain likes to force yomiai situations, ernest pointed this out in one of the matchup video posts recently too

ain's confident in winning these guessing situations, and overall they are somewhat more rewarding because of either more +gb before or cranking up their gb even higher for more damage off the next hit etc

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Yeah that's precisely it. He's forcing yomiai.

My guess is he has a hard counter to each of the opponent's options in that situation, and just guesses what the opponent will do and picks one in a convoluted rock paper scissors game. So maybe something like CSE beats block and mash but loses to IAD, run up 2k/5k beats stand for IAD preparation but loses to mash and ties with block, airthrow beats super jump, jump or IAD, but loses to neutral stand for IAD prep into AA mash. He risks getting hit quite often in such situations, but I suppose he doesn't mind and if he's right, the return is indeed very high.

This is in contrast to someone like Faith of old or Machabo of today who will try to pick the move that allows them to counterpunch most of the opponent's options on reaction or convert into katame. You can't cover all of the options, but you can cover a lot of them with proper spacing and soft yomi (i.e., guessing that opp will probably not do this instead of predicting what the opponent will do specifically). Ain apparently prefers hard yomi (i.e. specific callouts) when he's on offense.

It's not wrong to force yomiai for Ky and there are definitely certain situations where you should induce yomiai, but I don't think he's really suited for that since he doesn't do as much damage on average as most of the other characters. Of course, Buppa back in the day proved that it is possible to dominate by inducing yomiai with Ky, so long as your hard yomi is really on point.

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So I owe some answers. 

Regarding the new blitz mechanic, you have to be more mindful of what your opponent does when you put a CSE through a grinder. However if you're looking you can get a big punish. My opponent did it once and I got hit. The second time I jumped back, waited for it to finish, threw out a CSE, dash forward 6H combo. Like you can REALLY fuck someone up if you read them trying to Blitz Charge. You just can't go in wildly pressing buttons like you could before. You have to be more thoughtful about your offense, it seems. 

In the corner after 6D pretty much the only thing you have to be worried about is the enemy height. I couldn't connect 2 6H's because of the height and falling, but, I could just do 3 3HS in a row into Greed Sever. I'm still trying to fully understand the mechanics of the 6D. I'll update as I learn more. Honestly, I can't figure out what considers the opponent knocked down, and what will cause them to tech up immediately vs them just staying on the ground after a 6D. I keep trying to end combos into 2D xx 236D, but it seems kinda finnicky. On a lighter note, if you haven't seen yet, you can pretty much 5P Dribble an enemy after 6D [Think HNK Dribbling]. It's pretty funny to see. I did not try insta-kill. I probably won't have a chance to try insta-kill. Sorry. 

Did I miss anything?

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Some awesome Ky footage from Machabo here: 

 

 

EDIT:

I feel like this oki tool is a derivative of what shtkn posted on his twitter some months back, but it looks like a legit 50/50 oki tool in the corner:

 

 

 

Thoughts?

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