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tianyuan2k4

HnK 101: Ask Prof. Gwyrgyn Blood

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:kitty: :kitty: :kitty: Hi, professor Gwyrgyn Blood, can you check on Shin's 2B vs Toki's wake up 236236B? Plenty of times I thought Shin is in serious trouble but 2B beats the super instead. I looked at the frame chart it puzzled me even more because 236236B is totally invincible from the beginning and lasts for 33 frames (Invincible frames: 0 ~33). Then Shin 2B's duration is only 3 frames. (Toki's 236236B is 6 frames!) No way that crouching weak kick can beat 236236B on paper, but it still happen quite random. Maybe it's the hit box? Well, that's what I need you to analyze. Shin's 2B is very strange. Please teach me a lesson:yaaay:

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Prof. Gwyrgyn, what's up with Juda's Banishing Strike? It seems to have a really really long hitbox; do other characters have such "bs?" Assist. Prof. Tianyuan, how'd you get to boost in the corner after Juda's throw?

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Haha, I am just an annoying noob who didn't play fighting game since street fighter one. Anyway, with Juda you can do corner normal throw > C+D > 6 > ~ It's still in PS2 port right? For the Juda BS, look at the framechart it's seems very inaccurate...

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Prof. Gwyrgyn,

what's up with Juda's Banishing Strike? It seems to have a really really long hitbox; do other characters have such "bs?"

Its just a lot of things. It has a very good hitbox (very far forward and upward), it has a lot of active time, and Juda is incredibly good at making you block things while being able to charge it up.

Thouther can use his pretty similarly but obviously not as well. If he sticks out a projectile on your wakeup and you block it late, he will have plenty of time to charge that sucker up to make you eat it. Mamiya tends to use similar setups but uses her AB attack instead.

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tianyuan2k4: Just out of curiosity, where are you getting the invincibility data for Toki's super? It's not on the frame data scans you posted. To be honest, just looking at the frame data, I'm slightly disappointed. Like for Toki's counters, either they have invincibility on the 1st frame, or the startup should actually read 0. Plus there's a lot of notes not there that should be on the mook. Like Toki's Sekakkou should wall bounce on CH.

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Haha, I am just an annoying noob who didn't play fighting game since street fighter one.

Anyway, with Juda you can do corner normal throw > C+D > 6 > ~ It's still in PS2 port right?

For the Juda BS, look at the framechart it's seems very inaccurate...

you can but it seems like you have to be specific on when you hit them with CD

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tianyuan2k4:

Just out of curiosity, where are you getting the invincibility data for Toki's super?

It's not on the frame data scans you posted.

http://www.penguin-mayhem.net/james/hnk/framedata/mamiya_etc.jpg

It's after Mamiya's.

Like for Toki's counters, either they have invincibility on the 1st frame, or the startup should actually read 0.

Besides his 214C counters, others have no invincibility at all. But 1 frame execution is really really fast! Well 214A has 16 frames duration and 214B has 18 frames duration. They are pretty long for a counter move:)

Juda, corner normal throw (while comac is still scratching opp) > C+D > 6? Is that good enough?

:sweatdrop:

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Toki's counter's are pretty identical to Axl's in frame data. Except Axl's have scaling and you have to use tension to combo off them. Also Axl isn't already retarded to begin with. I mean serious, who designed Toki and didn't immediately see him as a problem? Fast teleports, a throw you can get a wallbounce combo off of, the best IK in the game, a very good projectile, counters... I mean, this is just the obvious stuff.

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Toki's problem is all about 623B. Without it Toki won't be this good. The ameba combo is acceptable to developers since it doesn't do a lot of damage. They overlooked stupid 70%+ wall bounce combo after throw, counter moves and 236236B CH. But it took sometime to developed that combo even with a lot of players around. Actually I think Rei is as broken as Toki, although Toki took all the blame:P

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Tianyuan: The problem is, in Guilty Gear, moves with 1 frame of startup CANNOT be used as reversals (e.g. Judge Gauntlet). Everyone knows for a fact that Toki can use his counters as reversals. So yeah. Also, just to clarfiy, his projectile counter is not listed as being invincible from frame 0 on. That's the animation for after he reflects a projectile with it. However, he can still wakeup with the counter and flick back fireballs. Bah. From the Old How to Counter Toki thread by nohoho: Okiseme Revisited / Beware the Reversal Sekkakou In an earlier article, Arcadia had said that you could stuff Toki's Sekkakou super if you used an attack that stayed out long enough. The new piece retracts that suggestion. Whether or not you can stuff the super is actually random -- given two identical situations you'll hit him one time and he'll hit you the other. Your likelihood of stopping Toki goes up increasingly with weak normal moves, hard normal moves and then special moves. That being said, I think the way they wrote the super data is kinda stupid, necessary, but still stupid in my opinion. The guys who wrote up the mook INCLUDED super freeze time during the start up of the super. So for example, Toki's Sekkakou super is listed as having 25 frames of startup, 6 active frames, rest recovery. However, the super flash goes off on frame 8, and lasts till 42. During this freeze on frame 8, the opponent is frozen on whatever frame they were in. So effectively, the super has a startup of 7 or 8 (depends on how you want to split hairs) Anyways, getting my point. Tianyuan, based on that chart you provided, here's my take on what's going on. Shin's cr. LK is 7/3/4. Toki's Sekkakou freezes time on frame 8, lasts till frame 42. Invincibility lasts from 0-32. In other words, his invincibility basically runs out DURING the super freeze. So what you're getting is Shin is frozen with his kick out (it's now stuck on it's active frame). Toki waves his hands, but apparently the hitbox on his super is weird, so it fails to connect. We're now at 25+6 => 31 frames done, now moving onto frame 32. Next frame, #33. Toki's invincibility is now gone, the screen is still frozen though. Since Shin's cr. B is still active, game sees, "Oh, Shin's kick is still out, Toki can be hit, Toki gets hit." And Toki gets hit during the super freeze, making it look like his invincibility runs out on the same frame his attack goes off, or something. So long story short: If your move is actually active when the super flash goes off, pray that the game is merciful and decides to have the Sekakkou whiff, in which case because you're move is frozen on an active frame, it'll tag Toki.

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Well. I think that solves that. Super Flash always really confounds things when it is complicated like in HnK and GG. It's kind of like those negative startup supers in GG that start moving during the super flash. :psyduck:

As far as Arcadia saying it's random.. I don't really buy that myself. Probably just discreet differences in timing/setup. Same problem GG has when random shit happens.

As for the 1F startup thing ... could be that there is a magic 1F invincibility on wakeup or something dumb like that. Could also be that the Mook is just wrong, OR that they are writing it weird... like the first active frame is counted as part of the startup (as retarded as that sounds, I've seen someone do that before).

I'm sorry to hear that, and I do hope you get better.

By the way, who do you play in this game anyway ;3?

Right now it's Thouther > Raoh. I play Ken a bit too, but mostly because I love his DP. Fortunately I've gotten better about stocking charges with Raoh so he actually has a DP too.

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I have more trouble with your souther ;_; and you like Ken cause of his DP into FKO glitch dont you??? D:< POscrub: Are you saying that it is okay to attack imbetween frames 33 and 42 on Toki's Sekkakou?

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Thanks a lot POscrub for answering my question. It seems like the major factor to beat Toki's 236236B is:

Toki waves his hands, but apparently the hitbox on his super is weird, so it fails to connect.

Well, at least I have errr, 33 - 8 = 25 frames to pray for it to fail:kitty: I wonder what's that hitbox looks like.

Base on the chart, you won't be able to attack Toki since the move freeze the screen til 42nd frame. If you block the move, don't even bother to attack back. Toki can boost cancel the super:sweatdrop:

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Speaking of a blocked sekkakou, it's listed a -11 on block in the frame data, wtf? he clearly has the advantage after this.

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Errr, as long as Toki doesn't boost cancel 236236B's recovery, you can punish him with anything comes out faster than 11F right?

I thought that Toki's advantage after Sekkakou was well known (at least it is in france), that's one of the reason this super is so retarded (but not the only one lol). Just try in trainning mode, make Toki do Sekkakou > fastest 2A, now try agility defense it then try a fast move like Thouther 5B, oh CH!!! but that's for Toki :yaaay:

Another thing that make you see he has the advantage on block, do a infinite blockstun setup on backturned opponent like the one in Kubo's CM, if you do a Sekkakou in the string you can 2A him befoire he comes out of blockstun.

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Now my head hurts... Inaccurate frame chart, broken 236236B... 236236B doesn't beat guard cancel right? At least it never worked against my Shin afaik. Or just the other guy didn't time it right?

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