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[Xrd] Ramlethal - Gameplay Discussion (Discuss Videos/Combos/Questions/etc.)

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Sounds like a good idea, and a lot of character threads did that for BBCP once 1.1 came out. Might I ask where you've seen this footage Arm? I've seen one or two matches on Goldenrody's channel, but not that much. Also, I've only seen Karinchu play Milia, so he may have dropped her. Granted, he's always had a Milia and a Sol, but I think this is the first time I've seen him use her in a 5V5 Mikaido Team Tournament over Ram before IIRC.

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Sounds like a good idea, and a lot of character threads did that for BBCP once 1.1 came out. Might I ask where you've seen this footage Arm? I've seen one or two matches on Goldenrody's channel, but not that much. Also, I've only seen Karinchu play Milia, so he may have dropped her. Granted, he's always had a Milia and a Sol, but I think this is the first time I've seen him use her in a 5V5 Mikaido Team Tournament over Ram before IIRC.

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That's one of the main things which is annoying me currently. There's just no footage of a former, strong Ram player available. Until I've seen them or a really strong new player I'm not able to judge the changes.

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Daiji is still playing Ramlethal I believe. He was one of the first Rammy players if I remember correctly so it makes sense that he'd stick with her. That's good cause he was my favorite.

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Congrats to Pain for taking 2nd place with Ramlethal at NCR but unfortunately he looked hella free against Kazunoko. Shout outs to Pain for doing the 2PPK YRC j.K mix up and being able pull off the Daiji corner-to-corner carry combo against Kazunoko even though it was black beat. lol Pains matches vs Kazunoko confirms my biggest fear when playing neutral with both swords deployed and that's being highly susceptible to air throws. Poor Pain was getting air thrown like a rag doll and it makes you think what you need to do differently in the neutral game. Seems like sticking with swords equipped is more important in the Sol match up.

 

I was disappointed that Pain wasn't going for more meaty sword mix ups in the corner. I know there were some situations where you have to bait out the dead angle or be cautious of a reversal but there were some situations where he could have pushed offense a bit more. The corner combo set ups were also a bit lacking and there were several combos that would have pulled the swords into the corner for a proper meaty set up. This was only more applicable against other NA players but against Kazunoko he didn't get that many opportunities and it was more about how to improve defense and neutral game.

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To be fair, you only become more susceptible to air throws because you tunnel vision on trying to put the swords to work too much, especially when you double jump to set the sword. Watching from Kazunoko's point of view, I feel that there probably is a glaring weakness in thinking that doing double jump set sword is hard to punish, even though Ramlethal is so high up in the air.

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I havent seen the matches but kazunoko can reversal 100% of the time if he wants to. And even then he is reading your oki set up and your range.

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To be fair, you only become more susceptible to air throws because you tunnel vision on trying to put the swords to work too much, especially when you double jump to set the sword. Watching from Kazunoko's point of view, I feel that there probably is a glaring weakness in thinking that doing double jump set sword is hard to punish, even though Ramlethal is so high up in the air.

 

Yeah, I don't think Pain was use to fighting anyone who could do that consistently on him so he felt lost in the neutral game and didn't know how to adapt after wards.

 

I havent seen the matches but kazunoko can reversal 100% of the time if he wants to. And even then he is reading your oki set up and your range.

 

There are several reversal safe oki setups you can run on Sol. 

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Ramlethal's midscreen setups suck, especially after a throw or a ppp ender where the conventional play is to summon a sword and dash in. More often than not what happens is that the sword isn't even meaty and allows the opponent to do a whole range of things from backdash to jump to mashing moves (hitting Ramlethal and stopping the sword). There's not enough time for Ramlethal to put a meaty sword after a midscreen knockdown in most scenarios.

 

Here's an idea that I think might be a better approach than chucking swords. After a throw or a ppp knockdown, dash up to your opponent and do a meaty 2s. The meaty 2s will beat backdash, jump, mash and even clash with some reversals should they successfully reversal DP out of the meaty 2s. The obvious weaknesses are that it loses to simply just blocking on wakeup, but you would be surprised to see how many people actually want to do things versus Ramlethal on wakeup instead of patiently blocking. If they actually block your meaty 2s, you just cancel into 2h and you earnt about half a block of meter and you are relatively safe, punishable only by a few moves. Ramlethal's own Daruo comes to my mind first and there are probably more than can punish the blocked 2h but versus most characters you should be pretty safe. Should the 2s actually hit because your opponent tried to do something, 2s 2h leads them back into the same situation again.

 

Compare meaty 2s to chucking a sword. The sword does absolutely nothing unless the opponent respects you for some odd reason. Meaty 2s eliminates most of the opponent's defensive options and still gets you some meter should they just block.

 

Of course, meaty 2s gets stuffed by a well timed wakeup Blitz Shield, but if the opponent is conditioned not to jump, backdash or mash on wakeup, his only options left are Blitz Shield and blocking, both which will be beaten by a command throw.

 

Eventually people will get smart and do delayed 2p or something to catch your command throw or 2s oki, but overall it's still a better strategy on oki to do a meaty 2s than to chuck a sword out.

 

Edit: Not a good idea to do meaty 2s against Potemkin or Slayer with their superior backdashes.

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j.8D ender seems pretty decent if it's relatively close to the ground, after, say, Dauro > c.S or something.

 

With equipped swords for example you can do: 66S/H > dash jump > airdash j.K / empty jump low

The sword should hit meaty if timed right, which means you can go for a safe mixup afterwards. The catch is that, as we all know, choco can't confirm off a low without a sword so if they block the meaty sword you have to autopilot 2D > Dauro.

 

PPP is utter shit, but if it did send them into the corner but didn't wallsplat, I think you can do stuff like

[H-] dash jump delay j.2H (far) > [air dash j.K > j.S] / [2D > Dauro] / [2KP] > sword hits > combo

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@Complexity:

 

Yeah, I also feel the same way about the midscreen neutral issue.

2S/2H is really really strong. I'm surprised no one uses it more.

 

Midscreen sword deploy is something to fall back on when big sword normals (2S/2H) get countered.

 

Another alternative to sword setups are to just use plain ol' safe jumps :>

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I thought I was the only one who did the meaty 2S on a knocked down opponent. I think its important to switch between the swords and this option, because yes the 2S can be unsafe if you guess wrong and don't cancel it, but your opponent will not respect you by using just swords at midscreen, at least from what I've seen (let it be known that I am not good and play against very low level players). Plus you get great reward if you do hit them with the 2S; it's awesome against wild Sol players especially the ones who love to challenge you on wakeup. I think meaty 2S won't be as effective on better players of course, but it's important to throw out there imo.

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Working on some Counter HIt & Frame Trap setups for Ramlethal because people love to mash buttons on her. While in theory you want to work with + frames for frame traps we know that mind games and human reaction can allow frame traps to work with negative frames usually within -1 or -2f.

 

Setup: 4PxN, c.S/2K

 

How it Works: On paper this isn't particular strong but this is combines a frame trap with a mind game to make it work. It also allows for several on the fly variations depending on what the opponent does. You'll have to be weary on characters who have extremely fast normals such as Chipp's 3f 5P.

 

5P is a level 0 attack and is +1 on regular block and can be chained into itself. If they're IBing or regular blocking you can usually get about 3-4 4Ps before you're at the max range for c.S. Ramlethal's c.S has a 6f start up, provided they didn't instant block your 4P, you've created a 5f gap for them to push a button which is just enough to entice someone to mash or push a button within that gap. If they're using a S or heavier normal you'll counter hit them guaranteed allowing you to confirm into 2D xx Daruo and then corner carry or set up oki. If they block the frame trap then you can go into 2D and do anything like cancel into Detruo, jump cancel, or 6S/HS if you're feeling confident in your pressure game. You can also stagger into 2K and catch buttons that way but the rewards are smaller damage into a knockdown for oki.

 

Adapting the Set Up: Most characters fastest normal are their 5P, which can range from 3f (Chipp) to 6f; however, most people block low first due to the threat of 2KPX, so for them to mash out a 5P in this string requires them to transition to stand block and get the 5P out on the first available frame. While it's still quite possible that this could happen it's not as likely. You'll be able to visually confirm their stand block and alter your string from there. While you can lose to 4f 2Ps or trade with 5f 2Ps you still have a chance at getting the counter hit since there's a 1-2f gap for them to get out their 2P on the first available frame. The way around this is to stagger your 4Ps since they're 4f start up. You'll counter hit them with the 4P, which then allows you to confirm into 2KK for a knock down into midscreen oki.

 

This frame trap works for people who like to mash but against competent players they probably won't fall for this so you need to give these players a reason to mash or attempt an interrupt. This is where the command grab comes into play and the general theory is similar to Sol rush down with tick command grabs or frame traps. So against competent players that'll block 4P spam you can go for a command grab attempt. Using YRC cassisus to set up the situation like YRC gun flame is also viable and helps set up the 4P, c.S option later on. Once they fear the command grab option they'll either start to back dash, up back, mash buttons, or reversal. The frame trap with c.S will catch the buttons (pending character), up back, and possibly the back dash (need to test this one). You'll obviously lose to the reversal but reversal timing is tight so the risk/reward is more in your favor. 

 

Counters: The frame trap is not air tight but is effective because it leaves just enough of a gap for people to push buttons rather than a tighter frame trap that's 3f or less. That being said, because of the size of this gap (5f) you will lose to faster normals than Ramlethal's c.S like I mentioned above but I also mentioned how to adapt the string to combat those normals. There's a few other options that beat this frame trap set up.

  • Instant Blocking - Turns your 4P from being +1 on block to -1 on block, which gives them a larger window to counter the c.S. While I say this is a counter it's extremely tough for them to time their interrupt because if you're rapid firing 4P's they don't know when they can interrupt. You also have the ability to confirm the IBs and then vary the block string to stagger the 4Ps to throw off IB/button timing or to go into a safe block string and reset to neutral.
  • Faultless Defense - Turns your 4P from +1 to +3 on block but can push you out of c.S range. If you don't recognize the FD in time you'll be pushed out and they've reset back to neutral. On the flip side, if you do recognize the FD you can start staggering 4P or start using dash 2P/4P to take advantage of the additional frame advantage. It also tightens up the frame gap for c.S or tightens their time to interrupt a command grab setup.
  • Reversals - Invincible reversals will beat the setup clean and there's nothing you can do but read the reversal and bait it. You may have time to block the reversal given the recovery of 4P but haven't really tested this. Reversal timing is tight in general so this will rarely happen (probably) but something that needs to be considered. I'll respect anyone who properly times their reversal against the various ways you can adjust the set up.
  • Dead Angle - Given the amount of 4Ps you could rapid fire it gives them a higher chance to confirm into a dead angle. Depending on how rapid fire happy you are with the 4Ps you actually have enough time to block it especially if you stagger the 4Ps. Staggering the 4Ps will also throw off their timing for dead angle unless they wait for something like c.S or 2K to dead angle. Not a big counter but lets them reset to neutral or in pre-1.10 Millia start their oki.
  • Blitz Shield - The frame gap allows them to Blitz Shield the set up but you would have to be over using the frame trap for this to be viable plus they put themselves at risk of the command grab.

Setup: 4PxN, 2K, f.S (sword)

 

How it Works: This is a counter hit setup rather than a frame trap. It takes advantage of knowing your f.S range and their longest poke range. Character dependant but you want to end the string in 2K to push the opponent outside of their max poke range. 2K leaves you at -2 on normal block and f.S with sword equipped has a 9f start up. However, if you space out the block string so that 2K leaves you outside of their poke range but withn yours, you'll be able to counter hit them with sword f.S. From there  you can cancel into Dauro for a full combo that could lead into oki. This works better if they're FDing your offense as it'll help push you out of their range and makes your 2K 0 on block instead of -2. While you could get FD out of f.S range it's still not terrible to throw out f.S anyways because if they push a button they'll extend their hitbox into f.S for the counter hit. Granted, they could wait and whiff punish your f.S after wards. Works well against characters who have good far ranged normals such as Millia 2D, Ky 2S, Venom 2S, Sol 2S, Faust 2P or Elphet 2S. It can be difficult to confirm the CH into Daruo and you'll probably just end up doing it anyways but the CH window gives you a bit more time to confirm into Daruo.

 

Adapting the Set Up: There are a few ways to counter the set up that I've mentioned below. You don't need to commit to the f.S and instead go 2K, 6S/HS instead when your outside of their poke range. It launches the swords and reset to neutral unless your YRC the start up of 6S/HS in which case you can push offense instead.

 

Counters: There are a couple of ways to counter this set up.

  • Instant Blocking - is the best counter to this set up because it reduces push back and makes your 2K -5 on block. If you don't recognize the instant blocks in time then you put yourself at risk at being within their poke range and being -5 on block turning your 9f f.S into a 14f normal.
  • Blitz Shield - There's a big enough gap for a Blitz Shield counter this setup but you might be far enough away for the opponent to not be able to punish in time.
  • Reversals - You're pretty much looking at a 'psychic' DP to counter the tip of your f.S. Depending on the reversal use this is going to be minor from a damage perspective. It'll swing momentum for sure but pending match up you should be able to recover from this.
  • Faultless Defense, Up Back, Super Jump - There's several ways for the opponent to use in game defensive options and just reset to neutral.
  • Whiff Punish - If you've spaced yourself out side of your f.S range whether intentionally or accidentally the opponent can wait and then whiff punish your f.S.

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Blockstring into j.h is great against people who like to mash on the floor.

 

Oh that reminds me of another CH/throw bait setup I do. If I get a knockdown that doesn't offer good oki options I like to walk or dash into their body (gives good corner push) and then just as they're waking up I do an instant j.HS. Some people who see you hover over their body like that mash on wake up throw or 2P/5P so the last minute j.HS counter hits them and you get to combo into Detruo.

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Definitely don't use 4P c.S enough but 4PPP 1K f.S works great. If they block the f.S you can jump/iad, cancel into 6S/H or cassius. I guess 3K works here too? Just not a lot of reward on hit or block without RC.

 

4PxN cassius YRC seems really interesting though. Gives you enough time to setup dash up 4P 236K or 6S/H 6K/2K.

 

While not true frame traps, ive been getting away with doing strings like c.S 2D IAD back j6S/H land, daruo. The idea is to get the sword to hit just after daruo, making it heavily + on block. Works best with swords equipped and also with 2H/S summon if theyre close to the opponent. However, raw daruo is easily stuffed by just about any normal. If they decide to try and deal with the incoming sword though by jumping, backdashing or just blocking, theyll have to deal with whatever pressure you decide to do afterwards. 

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There are several reversal safe oki setups you can run on Sol.

Its not that safe set up exist but merely if the opponent is at a higher level and can read set up they can chose to reversal or not. Meaning set up are only as good as your opponent ability to not comprehend them this inverse relationship per se. while a good read would just lead them to block and we all know that safe jump does not provide a strong mix up but merely aim to bait a reversal where the opponent does not know about it.

Its probably my main issue with ramlethal option is that she gets one shot at really mixing up. Hence I tend to favour the neutral game more outside of corner mix up which is her main strength.

P.s how is ramlethal post patch, lack of discuss is an interesting factor i guess.

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P.s how is ramlethal post patch, lack of discuss is an interesting factor i guess.

 

I'd like to say she's still damn good but Japanese players don't seem to want to give her a chance.

 

Also, burst can drop Ramlethal's swords. I didn't think that could happen.

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I'd like to say she's still damn good but Japanese players don't seem to want to give her a chance.

 

Also, burst can drop Ramlethal's swords. I didn't think that could happen.

sounds scary. Reminds me of a zato friend i know complaining about burst hitting zato will cause eddie to go away lol. Talk about karma =(

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That's what it seems like unfortunately.  Kuni is doing some good stuff with her, and hopefully Daiji will stick around, but a lot of the stronger Ram's have dropped her. and I believe the NCR commentators mentioned that she is currently the LEAST played character in the entire cast as of 1.1, so I don't think we'll be seeing much new tech from her until the patch drops on consoles.  Now whether that's a sign that she's weak now, or that Elphelt and Leo are just that crazy, since I think they're the Top 2 most played in the arcades, remains to be seen.  I haven't seen any tier lists yet, so I don't think we can fully say where she comparatively stands yet against the rest.  From what little I've seen though, I think she's mostly intact.

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Its not that safe set up exist but merely if the opponent is at a higher level and can read set up they can chose to reversal or not. Meaning set up are only as good as your opponent ability to not comprehend them this inverse relationship per se. while a good read would just lead them to block and we all know that safe jump does not provide a strong mix up but merely aim to bait a reversal where the opponent does not know about it.

Its probably my main issue with ramlethal option is that she gets one shot at really mixing up. Hence I tend to favour the neutral game more outside of corner mix up which is her main strength.

P.s how is ramlethal post patch, lack of discuss is an interesting factor i guess.

 

I'm not talking about her safe jump set ups. There are reversal safe corner oki that still gives you high/low/command grab options so you're not sacrificing anything. 

 

As for 1.10 discussion, someone made an interesting observation that her 5KPP string now causes a knock down; however, I'm not sure whether this new property is a change to the string or if this only happens when you combo into it. It definitely opens up new oki opportunities both midscreen and the corner. On the down side you lose some combo options to get the PPP wall splat but we'll see what players figure out.

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sounds scary. Reminds me of a zato friend i know complaining about burst hitting zato will cause eddie to go away lol. Talk about karma =(

 

At least Eddie can tank a hit.

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