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[Xrd] Ramlethal - Gameplay Discussion (Discuss Videos/Combos/Questions/etc.)

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Dunno if this has been mentioned early before or something, but what is Ram's best punishing combo after baiting a burst in the corner? Since they are in the air, I feel a little iffy about using c.S unless the combo is supposed to be c.S > 5HS (with or without sword) > j.8D > IAD loops > stuff? I really need to find something else other than 5PPP/5PK for the corner lol.

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Nothing wrong with good old 5ppp. It's the most consistent and will get you the combo that c.s won't do sometimes because you are too far and f.s comes out instead, but yes the most optimal combo is always c.s 5h j.8d into stuff.

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Scrubplayer: Do you mean if they burst in the corner? if they're already in the air, cS > j8D is great, allows you a dustloop before the wallsplat.

 

Complexity: I'm bringing the discussion where it belongs, here! Ram is a fair and honest character that rewards solid fundamentals. I say this as she might have the worst neutral in the game at the moment which forces her to play more with fundamentals than other characters. Sure she does have some great moves but at higher level they benefit from hard reads, not being good moves. Her oki, which is supposed to be her strong point, is very easy to disrespect. Without meter, most of her setups are either reactable or disrespectable. Compared to other characters she basically have no consistent pressure, her whole pressure-game is also based on reading your opponent on how he reacts to it, in a more significant way than other characters, IMO.

 

As zaeris mentioned in the other thread, GG favors neutral over oki and I agree, this can be said about most games, and Rams neutral is extremely flawed and easy to deal with. Her oki isn't that strong either as she gets pretty much just 1 mixup then her poor pressure gives the opponent huge opportunities to get out, and then it's back to the neutral game which isn't in her favor most of the time, ESPECIALLY if she's forced to retrieve her swords as well, either opening her up or forcing her to spend meter.

 

Sure she got some good setups, she is supposed to be a setplay character after all and should have some advantages in that area, but other characters does what she does, just better, easier and safer. The only thing that put her high tier in vanilla was her HUGE damage output which balanced her in a bit as she needed way fewer opportunities than other characters to kill, but now that she needs about the same amount of opportunities but doesn't have the toolset to allow them to happen, she's very weak.

 

 

Point is, it's easier to deal with Ram than it is for Ram to deal with others. Same can be said about Pot which is why he's also so bad. If Ram was a dishonest unfair character I promise you more people would play her instead of just dropping her like most did after the patch.

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Which Ramlethal corner oki is easily to disrespect? Which characters have the safer and easier setups? Do you consider Millia's Tandem Top oki to be good? I like to bring the stupid Tandem Top oki every time because it's exactly the same thing as Ramlethal's oki in that you can disrespect it very easily but for some reason people think it's extremely broken.

 

While Ramlethal indeed gets only 1 chance at a mixup, I wouldn't say your opponent has an easy time getting out of the corner thereafter unless you attempted to cross them up. You have 2 swords that can be used to reset pressure freely at any given time and your opponent has to guess these points that you reset at unless he's mashing, and even then you can blow up the mashing by frame trapping them, something you can't do outside the corner because your 5p, 2k, c.s and 5h all push the guy back too far and you can't even reset back into a sword. You can also blow upbacking by cancelling into 2d. You can't barrier her out either because if you barrier her out you put yourself in more blockstun and Ramlethal simply cancels into a sword. Suddenly she's back in your face again because swords are + a million on block. She can pressure her opponent like that until they feel scared to disrespect your pressure and instead patiently block, waiting for you to do something dumb before jumping out. That's when you can mix in command throws and 6k to catch them.

 

Also, she still does plenty of damage. The Trance nerf indeed screwed most of her damage when the opponent is lower on health but aside from that she still hits pretty hard. You can kill Sol in 3 hits in an ideal scenario, if you start from c.s Daruo and hope they eat all your setplays after.

 

I guess I'm not really understood when I say a character is dishonest. When I say a character is dishonest, I mean that there is some way in which the character can play that completely denies even top players the ability to counter play. This comes mostly in the form of setplay. For instance, even if you halved Millia's speed right now (which would probably make her bottom tier), she would still be dishonest because she still has the ability to kill you in one hit. Faust's meteors and mini-Faust are another good example. They can literally do 0 damage and they would still be considered dishonest because it suddenly forces your opponent into a situation where they have to play your game and that counter playing them will be risky. Call it a neutral game setplay if you will.

 

You can feel free to disagree with my terminology. Dishonest gameplay is something that I brought over from my MOBA experience anyway, because in those kind of games you get a lot more stupid situations where there is absolutely no counterplay at all.

 

Anyway, I think most JP players dropped Ramlethal because they didn't bother giving her a chance. She's probably stronger than the tier that FAB puts her in. I don't believe that Ramlethal can be lower than Slayer.

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Wall of text aside, I'm going to SEAM15 tomorrow. Hopefully I'll get to meet NOB since he's in my pools. I'd like a chance to fight him and try not to die to him.

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In general you should respect everyone oki and everyone has a good chance of being strong in oki, hell I'm even afaird of Potemkin okizeme if he ever puts me in that position and the only reason I feel that I can disrespect Potemkin okizeme is because I feel I won't ever reach that oki position of Potemkin knocking me down.

The same thing with ramlethal, now if you half Millia speed even jump frames ectera okizeme only has meaning if you get kd, now if by halfing her speed she loses the ability to freely knock you down like js jc ad jhs in any air encounter. Now you have a millia that can't kd hence that potential okizeme she has lost its meaning if she has no kd. It's not about okizeme as much because I believe a lot of the cast in gg have awesome okizeme. It's how you land that kd into okizeme.

I like ramlethal mix up because they are like fun and stylish but really they are just fancy high low and throw set up. With most being a one shot attempt.

I don't believe you're saying use swords as frame traps in reality they are more like 20 plus Frame start up normals which can traps if you're opponent doesn't have range poke with decent start up but some do.

And lastly her tension gain is an issue because it acts more like a win more factor where if you're landing that much s or hs attacks you're already in a commanding position but doesn't help when you have a bad start or playing an intense neutral game.

P.s good luck in your pool

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I too believe that her meter gain is an issue, since as zaeris said, you pretty much only have meter when you already have the momentum.

If they burst AFTER you put them in the corner with a dustloop (rekka combos don't count since they give you no meter), and also give you the chance to mix them up once, then yeah you'll have about the same meter they have when back in neutral.

But that's the ideal scenario, which requires you outplay them in neutral with no meter in the first place which we all know is hard as balls.

 

If they're really content with the current sword (=neutral) nerfs, then they HAVE to tweak her meter gain. I often find myself in situations where I don't get a chance to get a confirm in, and as a result don't even have enough meter to FD more than a couple of hits.

In vanilla I could 100% see the reasoning behind her trash meter gain, since she had some form of weird neutral which definitely helped in a lot of matchups, and also gave her more meter to boot. Which in turn meant more unnerfed Toranshi for her, or an easier time when defending, plus she could kill you in two good hits so yeah.

 

I just hope they don't turn a blind eye and give her the Makoto treatment, but I do get the fact she's complex and tough to balance properly.

Or maybe pray that Daiji comes up with some secret tech and she becomes decent again lel :v:

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Hey guys, remember awhile back when I said I'd complie us some 1.1 Ram info and make new threads for us? Well I'm working on it and should be done in about a week or so. This is a collective engagement so we'll all have to work together on this to keep things clean and updated. Hopefully next time I post in here it'll be in the new threads.

 

Note: Would you guys be against using Nico links or strictly YouTube links?

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I'm sure the majority of the users here wouldn't mind taking a few seconds of their time to make a nico account, in case they don't have one already.

Plus, nico is more often than not 60fps, its only drawback for studying matches and stuff is its inaccurate seek bar which is pretty ass

 

It should also be the easier solution for everyone, unless someone decides to start uploading on yt everything Ram related that Goldenrody, Jourdal etc miss.

 

Even if it was bad I'd still rather have a link to a shitty site than nothing anyway

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Im all up for nico links in the video thread.

 

Also our reversal just got like 3 times stronger may also have some more appliances with sildo destruo and cassius but that would need testing and i cant do it right now.

 

but at the time i was writing this LK went and said on twitter that he dint get any specials during neutral using so maybe its just a training mode thing after all? shit needs more testing and if anybody wants to lab up or mythbust this shit with our girl that would be awesome.

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I tested the OS in training mode and got it working in neutral. It works because of proximity guard so it should work fine in a match. Just input 2363214 K+S  (2363214 K+HS works too) and if they did any attack that would normally cause ram to enter the blocking animation you will get the super; else wise you will get standing FD.

 

Keep in mind that the reversal super can be safe jumped. 

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It sounds like the kind of OS that will get removed pretty quickly so I wouldn't get too comfortable doing OS wakeups. Stick with reads or reactions.

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Bedman is dumb. That is all.

SN:I usually see Daiji getting slapped around by various Bedman players. Feels good to not be the only one.

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Bedman is horrible. I've fought a couple of really good Bedmans who usually wrecks my shit, but even when I get a couple of games I still don't really understand how I should approach this matchup. It seems that Bedmans tools completely nullifies all of Rams tools and his airgame is SO STRONG. I find myself often hitting 6P but because of Bedman silly hitboxes during his attacks/approach, cS doesn't hit afterwards.

 

Bedman is a good character currently, not too strong but fundamentally solid.

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That dude doesn't care about anything. His ground game is annoying too cause of deja vu and his 4 million ways to teleport. You've really gotta be on point and corner him and you CANNOT LET HIM OUT

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Can someone explain to me why you all suddenly believe ram's neutral is the worst thing in the world

I personally didn't realize it ever not the worst thing in the world?

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Her neutral is bad for several reasons;

 

- Lack of range, fS range shorter than it shows and is beaten by either other characters ranges or isn't the best option because of a horrible hitbox. It doesn't really hit anything above ground level and is easily low-profiled as well. The hitbox sometimes feel awful, here's an exaggurated artists rendition:

 

khlSqTN.jpg

 

Of course I have no idea what I'm talking about but it feels this way. Most characters 6P evades this. On block there are no really good options. I see Daiji likes to cancel this into jump and airdash to close distances but this gets dangerous if done too much. If my opponent is not on point, fS xx detruo either puts me closer with advantage or gives me a combo, but it's slow and very easy to interrupt. fS xx dauro is a classic but it too is beaten by a lot of options and very unsafe on block, it even got nerfed...

 

jD might have the range she needs but this needs to be explored more but it's no Millia jD. jS is really strong, and jumpback jS is really good and one of the few reliable things you can do in her neutral.

 

- 3K being the single move she have that low-profiles. That's it. Playing against Ram you don't really have to worry about her dodging your pokes in neutral as 3K is pretty bad without 50 meter.

 

- Cassius is really a pretty bad projectile. The arc makes it stupid and unreliable, and it's awfully slow in comparison to other characters projectiles startup. For a lot of characters, projectile YRC is a strong option, it's not as strong for Ram because of the looong startup and lack of utility. Heck, it doesn't even hit opponents that are close enough, the fireball will spawn behind their backs.

 

- She basically have no pressure midscreen from anything unless swords are already deployed. I've seen Daiji resort to mixing up using PP and PPP in neutral/pressure to keep his oppnent on his toes. He uses it like a rekka that's safe on block and PP itself got great startup and hitboxes. Still, either on hit or block it doesn't do much for her but closing up so she can... I actually don't know, her close up pressure isn't very reliable either. Her pressure is pretty bad in general unless opponent is in the corner and both swords are already deployed.

 

The only characters I feel she can match in neutral are May, Pot and maybe Leo. The rest of the cast seems to have an obvious advantage. Neutral is so important in this game so it's no wonder most top players regard Ram as trash.

 

tl;dr: Nerf on swords hit her already lacking neutral super hard, they did nothing to compensate for this.

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Can someone explain to me why you all suddenly believe ram's neutral is the worst thing in the world

Lack of gatlings and variety in her normals make her very linear; she isn't very threatening until she has you in the corner. I don't think her normals are bad but there's very little to work with on block that make continuing pressure or hit confirming into anything meaningful difficult. 

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Nyaas summary of her neutral game is pretty good.

 

I'm only surprised that you don't like Cassius. CH Reward can be huge, leading in full corner carry combos. IMO it complements her neutral well. The arc limits their air approach options and force them to play against 5S, 2D. Against players who tend to low profile 5S I'm doing 2D from time to time. Thanks to it's jump cancel I thought you can throw it out from time to time. So far with good results.

5K can also be a decent poke since 1.1, Startup reduced by 2F was a good buff. The reward off of it isn't the best though, but beggars can't be choosers.

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If anything her neutral was already terrible before the patch but the swords were so good at neutral you kinda forget her other option.

In some sense her sword spaming neutral mask how poor other options were and when you nerft that good aspect she didnt have much to fall on.

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Wasn't that what made her a very momentum relying character? Either you locked them down with swords and went to town, or they got in and you had a very bad time.

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