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[Xrd] Ramlethal - Gameplay Discussion (Discuss Videos/Combos/Questions/etc.)

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You also need to recognized legitimate resversal timing vs those who just mash but make it through the 4 frames or so because your attacks are not meaty.

So what does this means. If they can do a true reversal then you will need to respect their option somewhat with jump back dash or safe jump. A wake dpwithout reversal means your attack is not meaty. You can prevent people from jumoing but that can because of jump start up frame meaning total time combine with buffer can be a big 6 frame window. You can do very meaty attacks instead to punish non perfect reversal instead.

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Does 6k beat out wakeup DP? Am I timing it wrong or is there something else I need to do for oki with characters with moves like that?

 

Against someone like Sol if you do a 2KK knockdown you can do a reversal safe oki if your swords are equipped with IAD behind them j.6S, falling j.K. So what happens is you IAD behind Sol and deploy S sword which cuts your forward momentum. Then as you're falling you do j.K. Not only does the Sol player have to manually correct the DP motion for the cross up but the set up itself lets you block a reversal DP from him. If he fails to block or reversal properly the j.K and j.6S will combo and then you can do c.S xx Daruo, etc...

 

From midscreen, you can deploy a sword and bait. If they DP and it whiffs your sword will hit and then you have to confirm off of the stray hit. If they DP and you block it you can punish the recovery. I normally don't like going for a block the DP situation if they have 50 meter because they can just RC it and gain offensive momentum. In the corner, you have to use meaty sword deploy to make them block on wake up (or risk getting hit by the second sword) and then go for a mix up between the first sword and the second sword. It limits your mix up options but it lets you maintain offensive momentum.

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A bit embarrassing to admit but I still don't know how to do the falling j.K after ... > IAD > j.6S > j.K. I'm sure I'm missing something obvious...

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It's off of IAD height so it's the lowest possible height you can get if he does it any higher it's not reversal safe anymore. The S sword has to be equipped otherwise the j.K won't come out due to additional recovery. You time j.6S in the middle of the IAD and then press K as you're falling after wards. There's no major timing to it.

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What blockstrings are you guys using?  Routes used by Japanese players like 5P>5K >6S seem fairly disrespectable. I suppose you can vary the strings you use to cancel, but most people can react to any sort of 6S/6H call with 5S/5K. I'm sure her pressure gets stronger if swords are deployed and close but only routes that end with jump back leave you safe from fast pokes.

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I'm having the same problem.  If you always do sword call after just two attacks (of any P/K string) it gets really predictable and sometimes punishable.  Generally I imagine you should simply try to vary the amount of attacks you do before the sword call, be it after just one punch or kick, or if you do a 4P string into 1K and then do sword call.  Doing 5P>5K on block leaves a lot to be desired, leaves you too close to the opponent, and doesn't have any options for a third attack.

If at all possible, doing cS > 2D is likely a better option than any of her P/K strings.  It's better frame advantage on block, you can jump cancel it, and you can also cancel into a fireball, YRC it, and dash back in for more pressure or a combo.

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try frame trapping them with 2kp(delay)k so they dont push as many buttons, 2ppk should also work but its not really a mixup, meanwhile with 2kpk you got the 2kpp option for the high hit 

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Some good frametraps are:

 

-2KP>2D

-Combination 2KPP

-4PPP>1K>6S or 6HS (swords are near opponent)

-c.5S>5HS(swordless)>jc 6S or 6HS (swords near opponent in the corner)

-5K is probably her furthest reaching swordless normal,(that also moves her a bit forward),but at the moment it's pretty slow.Supposedly it's getting buffed to 6 frames in 1.1 version.5KK is better than 5PK,because it leaves you at further distance from the opponent. 5K is going to lose by far reaching low profile moves though.

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Can 2KPP be called a frametrap when there's room for jabs between P and P? Same with 2KP>2D, there's a HUGE gap between P and 2D in that one. Only real frametrap from those combinations are 2KPK with a slight delay between P and K.

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Technically frame trap an be called anything with gap between moves.I didn't word it correctly,but i meant  that these can be used in conjunction with swords.For example with S sword equipped after a throw,you can do dash 6S>dash meaty 2KP>S sword hits>P(combination overhead) or 2D.I like 2D more compared to 1K since you can combo into Dauro and it's only 2 frames slower.Similar setups can be done after 2KK.Of course meaty 2K can be reversaled if they have an invincible one.

Also i wouldn't risk 2KPK,except if maybe i had 50% tension to RC.Another safer route is 2KP>1K,although the only thing you can do after that is 2KK,but a knockdown is a knockdown i guess.

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Well let's not generalize the definition of a frame trap other wise you end up spreading misinformation to players. This is exactly why I hate it when James Chen uses this term when he's commentating SF4 because he uses incorrectly so many times.

 

Frame traps should only leave a tiny gap for your opponent to be able to push a button but the last attack you did should leave you at minor frame advantage that your next button will always beat theirs. For example, using a normal that's +2 on block with your next normal being 4f start up. This leaves a 2f gap for the opponent to push a button. Excluding any special properties of their attack (ie. low profile, high profile, invincibility, etc...) if they were using a button that's 3f+ start up they'll always lose to yours because that +2f essentially turns their 3f+ start up normal into a 5f+ start up normal. There are cases when you can use minor frame disadvantage to create a similar situation but it's usually due to the meta of the game.

 

In the case of 2KP, 2D this is not a frame trap but a mix up. The real reason an opponent is getting hit by 2D in that string is because they were blocking high in anticipation of the over head, 2KPP, and the last thing they expected was a low 2D. There's risk/reward between 2KPK and 2KP, 2D but I'd rather go with 2D because you should be using the swords to cover that approach to begin with, as hypersonic mentioned already. The rewards from 2D is higher as well since you can combo into Daruo and do her BnB's after wards. 2KPK is really unsafe on block and the best you get is an oki set up. Even if you use the sword to cover the approach you're still left at pretty significant disadvantage unless you manage to time the sword to hit as 2KPK finishes.

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You sorta have to consider the range of their attacks. Even though frames traps consider what their faster response is it also looks at their actual counter poke meaning their response could be f.s or 2s instead because otherwise th3ir normal response doesnt reach the target. Hence a slight disadvantage frame can work or a slow galting often a position 6s or 6hs.

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I strongly agree on using swords to make 2KP>P/2D gapless. Raw, I find that against some opponents (that knows how to play against Ram and knows her gaps) I have to mix up between 2KPK, 2KPP and 2KP>2D to keep them on their toes. I generally don't use 2KPK if I don't have the meter to make it safe, and RC'ing it in the corner gives a full combo on hit anyway. Of course, Toranshi would be a better choice in many situations, but then they wouldn't have to fear 2KP-options.

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What blockstrings are you guys using?  Routes used by Japanese players like 5P>5K >6S seem fairly disrespectable. I suppose you can vary the strings you use to cancel, but most people can react to any sort of 6S/6H call with 5S/5K. I'm sure her pressure gets stronger if swords are deployed and close but only routes that end with jump back leave you safe from fast pokes.

 

Blockstrings I use with swords equipped:

 

- 4PPP 1K 6S/H, really safe way to put out a sword summon due to the amount of pushback.

- 4PPP f.S 623P or 6H/S, Im not sure how legit of a string this is but it works if they think you're going to try to summon. 5P is +1 on block so that helps too.

- f.S into 6S/H, poke into summon. Can also do 214P instead of summon.

- 4PK 6S/H, delaying the K can catch mashing.

- 4P1KP 6S/H, good string to summon from since they're expecting the overhead. 

- 4P 1K 6S/H 66 4PP, risky string, but if they block the 6S you can use the blockstun to go for mixup or another summon. H sword wont work here due to pushback.

 

corner exclusive stuff:

- 4P1K 6H 66 4P1K 6S 66 4P1K 66 c.S 5H j.6H, true blockstring if they block the dash up 4P. S sword recovers after you land from the j6H so its possible to continue pressure here with 6S/2S.

- c.S 2D j6H 66 jK j6S 66 4P1K c.S 5H j.6H, Alternate string. Leads to the same situation as the above string. IAD back j.6H works too if you think they might try poking out.

 

Not a whole lot of solid strings you can do off normals but things really open up once you get them to block a sword, especially in the corner. Once you summon a sword you're basically just trying to guess how they'll react to it and punishing them for it. Summoning from blocked f.S, both versions of 5H and jump cancels seem like the safest routes. 5H with sword is great to summon off due to its high attack level its just awkward to put it in strings due to its range and gatling options. Come 1.1, 5K speed buff will probably open up some new options.

 

Are you guys really making 2KP 2D work? There just seems like waaay too big of a gap in this string to be worth using. I always seem to be out of 2D range after a blocked 2KP due to them walking back, expecting the overhead. Seems really easy to block or simply disrespect. 

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You can use 2kpp alone because its positive. Dont even need to worry if its block or not. If you use it 2kpp enough 2kp2d should work into the game play strategy later.

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Are you guys really making 2KP 2D work? There just seems like waaay too big of a gap in this string to be worth using. I always seem to be out of 2D range after a blocked 2KP due to them walking back, expecting the overhead. Seems really easy to block or simply disrespect. 

 

If you incorporate swords to hit between the gap this is super safe. Do it in the corner and they can't walk back, and try to start 2K as close as possible for 2D to be in range. Of course, you run the risk of getting thrown instead.

 

If you have 50 tension you can give them a reason not to jab between by doing 2KPK and just RC it as an OS. Full combo into setplay on hit (proration though...) or safe on block into whatever.

 

But yeah, it's very blockable on reaction. I played a guy yesterday (offline) who literally blocked every single thing I threw at him, every overhead/low mixups. Had to get very creative with setplay airdash mixups to even touch him. I have the same impression when I play against other Rams, her grounded options are very reactable. :/ Guess I have to learn the more advanced mixup options, like 2KPK YRC jK/2K or backdash YRC jK/2K and 4K crossup options.

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If you incorporate swords to hit between the gap this is super safe. Do it in the corner and they can't walk back, and try to start 2K as close as possible for 2D to be in range. Of course, you run the risk of getting thrown instead.

 

If you have 50 tension you can give them a reason not to jab between by doing 2KPK and just RC it as an OS. Full combo into setplay on hit (proration though...) or safe on block into whatever.

 

But yeah, it's very blockable on reaction. I played a guy yesterday (offline) who literally blocked every single thing I threw at him, every overhead/low mixups. Had to get very creative with setplay airdash mixups to even touch him. I have the same impression when I play against other Rams, her grounded options are very reactable. :/ Guess I have to learn the more advanced mixup options, like 2KPK YRC jK/2K or backdash YRC jK/2K and 4K crossup options.

 

 

Start mixing in command grabs then.

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Doing that of course, but I want my mixup game to be more varied than that.

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Guess I have to learn the more advanced mixup options, like 2KPK YRC jK/2K or backdash YRC jK/2K and 4K crossup options.

 

You don't "need" that stuff to open people up. Don't get predictable in your corner game and stop relying on 2KPX as much.

Karinchu isn't using a single one of those advanced options, at least in the files I've seen so far.

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Again, not saying I need it. Saying I want it. I was able to open him with cmd throws and other stuff, just mentioning those grounded options as those are the ones discussed and I found out they are more reactable than I previously thought. I'd estimate those options were successful 0.5/10 times against him.

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Despite appearances, she's really not a strong mix-up character. After a knockdown in the corner (in most situations), she does get a protected fifty fifty that potentially leads to very high damage which will be significantly nerfed in the near future, but that's about it. She has strong pressure in the corner provided both swords are out, but her ability to force the opponent to guess or break their guard is limited in the corner, and almost non-existent mid screen. Her high/low options just have huge flaws that make them fall apart in-game. 6K requires 50 meter and prorates hard, or for you to be point blank to link 5P with a character that has the worst throw option selects in the game, 2KP really gives no incentive for the opponent to ever block low since 2KPK is very low reward even with RRC, only leads to a meterless combo with VERY specific YRC oki setups, and gives no oki on hit, and her command grab is 11 frames while barely outranging throws.

 

Most of the high ranked Ramlethals in Japan, Karinchu especially, are just very strong neutral players that have been playing Guilty Gear for a long time and know how to take advantage of Japan's national hatred of blocking. Karinchu's mix-up game is airdash/empty low with both swords equipped off PPP wall splat which isn't even real oki, or super spazzy command grab setups. The magic is when he converts all of them to like 200 damage and 3/4 screen carry after baiting a burst.

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I would like to revisit the 2kp into overhead or 2d mixup that you guys were discussing earlier. i'm not sure if you guys were talking about 2kp on block or on whiff, because I find that 2kp on whiff into overhead or 2d is horribly hard or impossible to react to and here's why if I interpret the frame data correctly.

 

2kp has 8 frames of startup with 10 frames of recovery. 2kpp has 18 frames of startup. 2d has 8 frames of startup. As I am referring to 2kp whiff into either 2kpp or 2d, you can remove the hitstop on 2kp and hence everything plays off solely on frame data.

 

If I choose to do 2kpp, the total frames after 2k will be 8f 2kp startup plus 18f 2kpp startup. We have a 26f overhead from 2k.

 

If I choose to do 2kp 2d, the total frames after 2k will be 8f 2kp startup plus 10f 2kp recovery plus 8f 2d startup. We have a 26f low from 2k.

 

So as you can see, you get a high and a low that hits on the same frame starting from 2k. It is also near impossible to react to via hitting buttons because 26f is like half a second. You need to be mashing or doing a delayed normal in order to catch the mixup, and if you do that you run the risk of getting caught by 2k f.s. You can jump but it will get caught by 2kk which knocks you down into another setup.

 

Someone correct me if I understood the frame data wrongly, but I do think this is a good mixup that might be pretty damn scary since it leads to all of Ramlethal's high damage options and is a good way to open up your opponent again should they have blocked your first mixup from oki.

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If youre talking about 2kpp and 2kp2d on whiff to meaty the ender it is not much different compare to meaty 2dor meaty 6k since its still slower overhead and faster low. Whether or not doing 2kp distract your opponent or not is just another mind game which may or may not affect your opponent.

Although 2kpp is safer on block.

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If youre talking about 2kpp and 2kp2d on whiff to meaty the ender it is not much different compare to meaty 2dor meaty 6k since its still slower overhead and faster low. Whether or not doing 2kp distract your opponent or not is just another mind game which may or may not affect your opponent.

Although 2kpp is safer on block.

 

There's no meaty. You do the mixup in a blockstring.

 

Also, if you somehow get your opponent to block a c.s standing during danger time, you can do c.s fuzzy j.k on characters that fuzzy j.k works on. The mortal counter will give your j.k enough time to combo into stuff on the ground. Doable with any jump cancellable move but I use c.s because it's fastest at 5f.

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