[Xrd] Ramlethal - Gameplay Discussion (Discuss Videos/Combos/Questions/etc.)

[zaeris]

I should quote when you said 2pk 2d or 2kpp on whiff which i assume some sorta oki set up which is ideal since whiff normal in neutral i feel isnt playing cautious.

Going back to 2kpp mix up. There is the gimmicky crump 5kpp for an overhead set up. I feel you can insert 2d or command grab there which can turn it into a strong reset. Although advise to be used once in a blue moon.

As for danger time sounds interesting fuzzy guard. That very much akin to baiken fuzzy f.s jc j.d .Although i do want to point out that fighting in danger time is a gamble.

Since we're talking about it, is there an rc extension that ramlethal could use without mortal counter. For j.k fuzzy without extra help.

[Complexity]

I should quote when you said 2pk 2d or 2kpp on whiff which i assume some sorta oki set up which is ideal since whiff normal in neutral i feel isnt playing cautious.

Going back to 2kpp mix up. There is the gimmicky crump 5kpp for an overhead set up. I feel you can insert 2d or command grab there which can turn it into a strong reset. Although advise to be used once in a blue moon.

As for danger time sounds interesting fuzzy guard. That very much akin to baiken fuzzy f.s jc j.d .Although i do want to point out that fighting in danger time is a gamble.

Since we're talking about it, is there an rc extension that ramlethal could use without mortal counter. For j.k fuzzy without extra help.

 

Whiffing 2kp isn't terribly dangerous. If 2k is blocked, your opponent is in 11 frames of blockstun (since it's a level 1 attack), leaving your opponent a 15f window to try and counterpoke you. A quarter of a second isn't a lot of time to recognize the situation and press buttons, which have their own startup anyway.

 

There's also pretty much no way to combo off fuzzy j.k without swords or mortal counter. Air Detruo doesn't leave you with a combo even if you RC j.k IIRC.

[zaeris]

Maybe my interpretation of whiff is different where the attack is not in hit stun or block stun. Meaning just hitting air. Moving on.....

[Nyaa]

I think I'm going to try doing some sort of swordcall after a knockdown into intentionally whiffing 2KP > P/2D. Using the swords blockstun to lock down the opponent while the attacks whiff might set up a somewhat safe setup. Both options are safe on block and mighty strong on hit. I like where you're going with it, Complexity.

 

As the startup is the same, 2KP, the latter followups are the only thing that you kinda have to try to 'react' to. 10f recovery + 8f startup = 18f startup low. 18f startup overhead = 18f startup overhead. Not a lot of people can consistently block on reaction something with 18f startup.

 

Of course I have to test this, find a setup where the ranges are perfect for the whiff and using swords to make the whiff safe.

[Complexity]

When I did come up with the theory I did intend it to be used in a blockstring because there are way better options for oki than just a simple cheesy high low mixup. Try doing this corner blockstring.

 

Point blank 1p 1p 4p 1p 2k on a crouching Sol. If Sol does not FD, this will give enough range for 2k to hit just at the tip and making 2kp whiff into what I just theorycrafted earlier on.

 

Speaking of which, I just found out that 5k 6k is actually a gatling and I was trying to find out if I could get any cheesy resets from it. The best I could find was H sword far away, wallsplat c.s f.s j.2h dash 5k 6k H sword hits. Yes it's a bad reset but who's supposed to know Ramlethal can't gatling from 5k into a low but can into a high anyway.

[Shingo]

Is there a Ramlethal to watch that excel at sword neutral?

[9:02 PM]

Karinchu is the best as far as overall neutral game goes, Dei is the only active Ram player who seems to prefer getting both swords out in neutral situations. He has a very interesting play style. Sharon seemed to play the same way, but he plays Elphelt mostly now.

[Nyaa]

So, whiffing 2KP > P/2D can work VERY well after a 2D-oki or j8D-oki in the corner. I filmed some examples against Sol. In both of these examples I ended with 2D as it got the shortest range of them. If 2D can hit, overhead P can hit as well. Doesn't seem reversal safe. Didn't have time to test more.

 

After j8D you can also just do 2KP if you want to bait a reversal. They will then get hit by 2S/2D.

 

http://a.pomf.se/wdacoe.mp4

 

Edit: If you have any swords equipped you can get this OKI from a 2D anywhere on the screen, just do 2D7~6S/6H *land and sliiight delay* 2KP. Knockdown time is enough after 2D so 2KP whiffs and sword hit covers the gap where opponet would be able to hit you. Then the mixup. Midscreen this is not throw-proof though, but is in the corner because of added pushback from 2D.

 

Bonus clip: http://a.pomf.se/eopplp.mp4

[zaeris]

Thats fine dandy but what makes it different from doing a normal high and low. 2d 6hs oki is meaty but you can like empty jump land 2d with the additional block stun from 6hs sword your opponent cannot throw you and if they do, 2d in block stun provides a punish for reversal throw masher sincethey will not be blocking low for a 6 or 4 input.

Its kinda gimmicky but if doing 2kp whiff makes them think an overhead is coming then hey it might be worth it.

[Nyaa]

I don't really see any reason for using 2D midscreen to get a knockdown anyway. I'm just exploring options with 2KP-whiffing.

 

Edit: Tested some 2KP-whiffing online.. 2f delay, seemed like my opponents had trouble blocking them. I kinda like this setup. :3

[zaeris]

I too cant justify using 2d modscreen. Thats my usually corner 2d kd when i have one sword deployed and one sword equip.

[Complexity]

I don't even know when Ramlethal will land a 2d midscreen and not do Daruo to corner carry. Probably when you don't feel like guess confirming Daruo.

[Killey]

That situation happens if you're doing a mix up into 2D and not cancelling/confirming into Daruo or you're doing a blocking string into 2D and jump cancelling into sword deploys for pressure but your opponent gets hit by 2D and you weren't expecting it.

[Complexity]

That situation happens if you're doing a mix up into 2D and not cancelling/confirming into Daruo or you're doing a blocking string into 2D and jump cancelling into sword deploys for pressure but your opponent gets hit by 2D and you weren't expecting it.

 

Yeah it's pretty much not taking the guess confirm into Daruo in fear that it will get blocked or even worse instant blocked. Costs games against certain characters like Potemkin.

[Nyaa]

And dauro worse on block in loctest patch...

[Killey]

And dauro worse on block in loctest patch...

 

I can understand why they did it but if they want people to throw out less Daruo's they need to give a better hit confirm into it. I guess they want it strictly for punishing.

[Putin]

It's apparent that they want her to confirm pretty much only off punishes or with the help of swords, but I think it wouldn't hurt to give CH f.S enough hitstun to confirm with iad j.K.

We'd still need to autopilot the iad like Dauro, but maybe we could cancel the iad with a sword summon so it wouldn't always be that easy for us to get AA'd if f.S didn't CH

 

I actually thought about trying that a few days ago when I had trouble sleeping, but was apparently a little too ambitious

[Nyaa]

But it's like, let's make her neutral worse. I can agree with the damage nerfs (which already is an indirect nerf to dauro), but neutral nerfs are just brutal. In a game where pressure is worth so much, a blocked dauro is Ram telling her opponent it's time for them to press buttons. While it's strong it's not that hard to blow up. Can be thrown before active frames and if you IB it's -5.

 

Anyway, how did this happen? http://a.pomf.se/frvapu.mp4 I've never seen Ram land on that side after explode.

[Complexity]

Anyway, how did this happen? http://a.pomf.se/frvapu.mp4 I've never seen Ram land on that side after explode.

 

My best guess is that because the Sol dashed, the Explode caught his hitbox further back since Sol's hurtbox leans forward (I think?), and hence Ramlethal ends up further back when the whole animation is complete as well. I never seen Explode end up on that side before either. Pretty sure the Sol could have FD-ed that though.

[zaeris]

just wondering whats the difference for double deploy

ppp dash c.s 5h.s jc j2hs land c.s jc high j.2s ad j.hs jd

vs

ppp dash c.s 5h.s jc j2hs land c.s jc low j.2s dash 5.hs j.c j.8d

just preference or is there a hitbox issue.

[Nyaa]

I think consistency. I can't say I've ever even tried the latter combo but the first should work on the entire cast IIRC and isn't hard to do in most situations, even with online lag. With scaling I don't think there's much gain in doing standing 5H instead of jH. Correct me if I'm wrong!

[TheArm05]

Personally I use

PPP dash cS 5H j2H land cS jc lowish j.2S ad j.8D land j.8D

but yea I don't think it matters as long as they get knocked down.

 

Man I want more new Dei footage. Watching his recent footage and I just have to think he is the new Ram god. His sword patterns/setups in neutral and confirms are on a completely different level than Karin/Batoko.

 

Dei plays more the playstyle that I want to play as well (1-2 swords deployed usually). The more I watch Karinchou the less I learn from him since he just beats people over the head with super optimized high execution combos and simple resets.

[Killey]

just wondering whats the difference for double deploy

ppp dash c.s 5h.s jc j2hs land c.s jc high j.2s ad j.hs jd

vs

ppp dash c.s 5h.s jc j2hs land c.s jc low j.2s dash 5.hs j.c j.8d

just preference or is there a hitbox issue.

 

I've tested both combos as well as TheArm05's j.8D, land, j.8D variants. You get more damage with the double j.8D but you end up getting pushed quite a bit of distance away from the opponent with this version. The other thing is that the j.HS, land, j.8D variant allows you to time a meaty sword set up on the entire cast (refer to the oki thread) while the other two don't or require different timings that I haven't fully explored. The j.HS variant also allows you to combo into Toranshi (tricky but doable) while the others don't or require different timings that I haven't fully explored. I have to do some more testing with the 5HS variant to see if it'll work after a longer combo starter. I tend to notice that if your combo starter was longer that the j.HS would whiff.

 

EDIT: Correction, Toranshi combo works for all three variants. I think the double j.8D and 5HS versions are easier to combo into Toranshi than the j.HS variant. I couldn't get the same meaty timing with the setups I use off of the j.HS variant for some odd reason. There might be other ways to get a meaty sword set up but I'm not going to explore this too much.

 

Man I want more new Dei footage. Watching his recent footage and I just have to think he is the new Ram god. His sword patterns/setups in neutral and confirms are on a completely different level than Karin/Batoko

 

Dei plays more the playstyle that I want to play as well (1-2 swords deployed usually). The more I watch Karinchou the less I learn from him since he just beats people over the head with super optimized high execution combos and simple resets.

 

Personally, I think Karinchu is better than Dei at a fundamental level. Karinchu's defense, neutral game, reads, and clutch is overall better than Dei's but we also don't have as much footage of Dei playing in comparison to Karinchu. Karinchu plays a lot more defensively with Ramlethal and holds onto swords way more than Dei does but playing a solid neutral game with swords equipped is pretty tough considering their attack angles and start up. I don't like Karinchu's corner oki game as much as other Ramlethal players as they are more simplistic and not multi-layered. They still work because Ramlethal can threaten multiple options from those situations but it's without the protection of swords. The reason I believe Karinchu purposely holds onto at least the S sword during his corner oki game is so he can convert into the maximum amount of IAD loops. The way I see it is that Dei goes for short bursts of damage where he gives himself multiple opportunities to open an opponent up while Karinchu maximizes all of his damage so that he just needs to open you up once or twice to win. I don't think either oki play style is right or wrong and it's just a matter of personal preference. However, from a fundamental perspective I think it's pretty clear that Karinchu is better than Dei in that department.

 

I can understand Dei being more entertaining to watch as his neutral game with swords deployed is quite interesting. His corner oki game is also a lot more varied and multi-layered and I think he helped make some advancements in that department. Personally, I think Dei was the one to solve the puzzle in maintaining oki in the corner when the swords are deployed from mid-to-full screen away.

[TheArm05]

You can still get toranshi off the 2x j.8D ender by dashing up and doing 5ppp toranshi otg 2k/3k after the last j.8D as long as the wallstick portion is early in the combo. If the pre wall stick portion of the combo is long it doesn't connect from pushback yea.  I don't go this route when I want to hit Toranshi or on long pre splat combos in matches.  I only do it when the post wallsplat part is going to be most of the dmg.

 

 

As far as Karinchau vs Dei goes. I can agree that Karin is stronger from the footage I have watched but his playstyle only really works bc of Ramlethals absurdly high damage.  

 

I think Dei plays the character more the way she is meant to be played by being evasive and trapping people with sword setups and pressure.  Some of his sword/projectile patterns in neutral are just brilliant.

 

Like you said Karinchu just plays extremely strong fundamental GG neutral and turns stray hits into most of their lifebar + a high/low mixup that leads to death. Karinchus playstyle in particular I feel is going to be nerfed hard in 1.1 as we all know Ramlethals damage is taking a big hit at the very least.

 

I just don't think its possible to emulate Karinchus playstyle unless you have god tier execution for Rams optimal combos.  Any drop or not being able to perform the Daiji loop to corner carry and that playstyle just falls to pieces.  So that rules me at least out.

Edited March 10, 2015 by TheArm05

[NTR_]

Somewhat related to the Karinchu/Dei talk, what matchups do you guys feel comfortable playing with swords deployed? Slower characters like Potemkin seem to have more leeway for deploys than chipp for example. For Elphelt and eddie I have no clue how to play the deploy game so usually I default to the karinchu style with holding swords mostly.