Killey Report post Posted March 19, 2015 The impact of swords being hittable depends on where the 'hurtbox' of the sword is for this to take effect and how much slower the sword swings for this to even matter. We probably won't get a concrete answer until a month or two into the new patch as people figure out new nuances to the match ups. I'm curious if the swords hurtbox are considered a projectile or not. It might effect the Potemkin match up when he goes to flick them. While Ramlethal got nerfed you can't look at it in a vacuum and have to compare it to the buffs and nerfs for the rest of the cast. If the second loketest patch notes are what they used for patch 1.10 we can take a look at Zato, as an example, and examine how the match up has changed. Zato nerfs forces him to play his neutral game longer since eddie meter depletes faster after certain actions and regenerates at a slower rate. Break the Law YRC got nerfed and shadow puddles can be hit so that's a means to keep little Eddie pressure in check at certain ranges. While this match up was already considered favorable or even for Ramlethal it got better for her despite her second loketest changes. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Nyaa Report post Posted March 19, 2015 I'm just glad BS is stronger against Zato. I still think it's stupid that Eddie can absorb DA-attacks. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Killey Report post Posted March 19, 2015 I'm just glad BS is stronger against Zato. I still think it's stupid that Eddie can absorb DA-attacks. I'm ok with that since Zato is generally weak defensively and little Eddie absorbing DA and Bursts makes both players have to think how to do their offense and defense. In combination with the Zato nerfs to how long little Eddie lasts and how long it takes to regenerate little Eddie meter I think this is fine. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
hypersonic Report post Posted March 20, 2015 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fVFUpB820nU https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zn5OP9kunxs So this footage answers our questions about the new sword change. "Sword setup: hurtbox added; slows down sword's startup when hit" It seems that: -If Ramlethal gets hit or gets thrown during the startup or the recovery(before it becomes a glowing orb again) of the sword summon,the familiar falls to the ground for about 2 seconds.It then reappears as an orb above the spot that it has fallen.So this means that it doesn't resummon automatically depending on the position that your opponent currently is,after its cooldown period. -Same thing happens if the familiar gets hit. -her oki is mostly unaffected by this change. So this means that playing neutral with swords,just became harder.Zoning and playing keepaway with Ramlethal became harder Deploying a sword against opponent that is far away is pointless.They can easily hit the orb now before it finishes its action and then you can't use it for like 2 seconds. I think that already summoned near the opponent 6S and 6HS swords might be ok,since they are fast. It seems that Ramlethal must protect the familiars now.So she must be mid distance or closer to the opponent and try to apply pressure,unless you want fallen familiars lol. Lots of combos were dropped in these sets,but her damage output seems to be still moderately high.At least one IAD loop is still possible. What happened to green dauro?Did they make the timing stricter? It seems that the Ram players got lots of normal dauros instead of green ones. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Complexity Report post Posted March 20, 2015 Indirect nerf to H sword because it's higher up and takes longer to fall and therefore takes longer to recharge itself. Anyway, the sword nerf doesn't look too bad. In fact, in 1.0 if Ramlethal just focused solely on running away and throwing swords, her opponent could just dash under them and get to her very quickly. The change probably snuffed out any form of long ranged gameplay but I feel that Ramlethal's strengths were in the close and mid range where she could complement her sword attacks with her other moves. This change brings a new problem with zoners though, as it is harder for Ramlethal to match their zoning game now. I'm guessing some weird pattern like Cassius YRC deployed 2h is required to try and get the opponent to block a sword in order to get in now. Or maybe I should learn to play with both swords on my back. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Nyaa Report post Posted March 20, 2015 Timestamped youtube-links to the ram-footage (who cares about the other characters) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fVFUpB820nU&t=421 Ram vs Faust https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fVFUpB820nU&t=635 Ram vs Sin Video 2 (whole video is ram footage) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zn5OP9kunxs&t=28 Ram vs Ky https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zn5OP9kunxs&t=276 Ram vs Ram https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zn5OP9kunxs&t=448 Ram vs Axl https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zn5OP9kunxs&t=616 Ram vs Ram https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zn5OP9kunxs&t=899 Ram vs Venom Zato I think it might improve her oki against characters with DP's. Now you can deploy the sword and space out in anticipation for the DP and still get a full deserved punish instead of stupid sword hitting them mid-air giving them time to recover. But, she can't zone for shit now. Pot will be a much harder matchup. Regarding dauro, "Glowing version now only activates when completing the motion with diagonally downward." so I guess input now is 6232 instead of 623 for green version. While it will make double-dauro combos easier on lightweights I don't know what to feel about this. I think it makes the motion unnecessary complex. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Nyaa Report post Posted March 20, 2015 Indirect nerf to H sword because it's higher up and takes longer to fall and therefore takes longer to recharge itself. It seems like both swords recover equally as fast (slow) after 2 seconds. Height isn't a factor. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Complexity Report post Posted March 20, 2015 It seems like both swords recover equally as fast (slow) after 2 seconds. Height isn't a factor. Dropping isn't a factor? How good. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
hypersonic Report post Posted March 20, 2015 I think it might improve her oki against characters with DP's. Now you can deploy the sword and space out in anticipation for the DP and still get a full deserved punish instead of stupid sword hitting them mid-air giving them time to recover. It really depends on the setup and the character.From the looks of it the swords themselves don't have hurtboxes.The hurtbox seems to be on the familiars that are swinging them.So if their reversal somehow doesn't hit the familiars they are going to get hit by the swords when they run out of invincible frames,which in my opinion is good if you're using the right setups.I'm guessing though,that if they hit the familiars they will be able to RRC their DP and get out for free,or anticipate it and chase them in the air. Another thing is that the familiars will fall if they get hit by a projectile or by a burst(even if it doesn't hit you).I don't know how good the sword neutral is going to be against projectiles like gunflame and Venom's balls in certain situations.I find it bad on paper. Messed up the Quote lol.My answer is in bold Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Syklone Report post Posted March 20, 2015 Jesus, that sword nerf is HIDEOUS. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Complexity Report post Posted March 20, 2015 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zn5OP9kunxs&t=899 Ram vs Venom I don't think that's Venom. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Killey Report post Posted March 20, 2015 Hmm...that sword deploy hit box seems pretty significant during the neutral game and will make a few match ups a little bit more difficult. It doesn't effect her over all play style at all. The HS sword is harder to swat down unless they're in the air and they have to commit to the attack or spend bar to keep themselves safe which may work in her favor in select situations but overall it's more of a nerf. Projectile users are going to be harder since they're projectile will always cause the S sword to deactivate so the HS sword needs to be used in those situations. I think YRCing the swords or Cassius is going to be more frequent now which is probably why they gave her meter gain off of Cassius and Deturo now. It's what I already do anyways so it's not really effecting my play style with her all that much but I'll probably lose out it scrambles more frequently now and need to adjust accordingly. I think a player like Karinchu won't really be effected by that nerf since he plays with the swords equipped the majority of the time but he does it for optimized IAD loops. With that getting nerfed I'm wondering what combo routes he'll go for and if he'll change his play style accordingly or just drop the char. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fVFUpB820nU&t=12m36s We get to see the first look at the new PK4K route and I like this a lot. I'm not sure if you can normally combo into this off of the ground but the untechable time is lengthy. I'm hoping this causes a knockdown because she does recover quite fast (enough to sneak in PPP) so from a midscreen perspective this opens up a whole new set of oki options that I like significantly more than going for corner carry with PPP ender that won't wall splat or a c.S, j.8D ender that doesn't give you favorable follow up options. If I can combo this normally from a 4P and provided the oki options are good then I'll definitely be going for this route instead of 4P, 1P, 2KK. I forget which video posted above had this combo but it's a combo route I've never seen before that I want to play around with. 2D xx Daruo, PK, PPP (wall splat), IAD, j.K, j.2HS, c.S, 5HS, j.2S, j.2HS hits, IAD, j.K, j.S, j.2S hits, j.8D The reason I find this route interesting is because this is a route when both swords are deployed away from the corner. I thought Dei had a good setup with the j.2S, c.S xx Daruo, j.8D thing but this route brings both swords to the corner and ends in j.8D so you can get a meaty j.2HS after wards. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Complexity Report post Posted March 20, 2015 We get to see the first look at the new PK4K route and I like this a lot. I'm not sure if you can normally combo into this off of the ground but the untechable time is lengthy. I'm hoping this causes a knockdown because she does recover quite fast (enough to sneak in PPP) so from a midscreen perspective this opens up a whole new set of oki options that I like significantly more than going for corner carry with PPP ender that won't wall splat or a c.S, j.8D ender that doesn't give you favorable follow up options. If I can combo this normally from a 4P and provided the oki options are good then I'll definitely be going for this route instead of 4P, 1P, 2KK. Combination pk is a level 3 attack with 17 frames of hitstun on a standing opponent and p4k starts up in 15 frames, so if you take the slower 4k startup of the two combinations that currently lead into 4k, pk4k should very well be comboable, even if the opponent mashes out of stagger. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RWA Announcer Report post Posted March 20, 2015 Sword nerf looks painful and will definitely change how we have to handle neutral in some matchups. (I'm NOT looking forward to how Pot and Leo are going to go for us now,) but, considering we were all literally staring Death in the face at one point, she seems to have come out of this rather well, and more in-tact that I honestly expected. New routes look fun, and we call still run most of our corner shenanigans it seems. It's a shame that she's supposedly the only previous S Tier who's fallen out of it, but I'm even taking that with a grain of salt since it's just Day 1. My opinion could change as time goes on, but overall I'm pretty happy with how she's turned out, and I definitely plan on sticking with her in the new version. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Complexity Report post Posted March 20, 2015 I doubt she's out of S tier. Most of the reason of why she was good is still there, especially Trance. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
hypersonic Report post Posted March 20, 2015 If she drops out of S tier doesn't depend solely on the changes that she received,even though most of her tools remain good.Other S tiers like Faust,Elphelt or Millia weren't hit as hard as Ram with the nerf hammer.Also characters like Ky and I-No received buffs.Lower tier characters like Axl and Slayer became significantly better with the buffs that they received(i doubt that they are S,but the matchups probably change).Sol that was already pretty good,received only a few nerfs that actually doesn't hurt his gameplay.So i think that there is realistic possibility that she may drop out of S tier,but she definitely won't be bad. -Another thing that i noted by watching the videos again is that,if Ramlethal is forced to block during the sword summon,the familiars will fall. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
coil Report post Posted March 20, 2015 the real nerf is the hurtbox on the swords... if you are hit while summoning, you already lost the sword deployment in 1.0 and the recovery of the orb its waaay fast, so when you recover of the hitstun its already available for sure Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Neanis Report post Posted March 20, 2015 I think they just wanted to solidify how the character is supposed to be played. Perhaps what they wanted her to do was not zone and run away but work in synergy with the swords (mu in blazblue seems to be headed towards that direction too if you want to make a parallel). For certain matchups I guess we ll have to be more careful about placing swords and try to bait oponents into hitting the S sword and then get it by HS. Maybe someday we ll get the zato and bedman treatement where the familiars absorb an attack (Answer: No). Anyways since I often play with only HS deployed in neutral, your opponent will have a harder time hitting that one and, even if he does, I guess thats a window for you to get in. Overall we got off way better than what the first loketest foreshadowed. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RWA Announcer Report post Posted March 20, 2015 Couldn't make all of these out fully, even with Google Translate, but Daiji has posted some of his thoughts on 1.1 Ram so far, and from what I can make it out, he seems pretty optimistic, and seems to have already found some new tech with her new 6HS and KK. https://twitter.com/1_daiji/status/578570445047267328 https://twitter.com/1_daiji/status/578570862875410432 Also, I asked James Xie what the early consensus was on her, since king of heart was saying that ALOT of players have dropped her, and his response was, "She seems to have lost a lot of her traits that made it easy to win/steal matches, so she is not as attractive to play." So I'm it's just a case of her not being as strong, as opposed to her being actually weak, especially since they have Elphelt now, and she's apparently the new Flavor Of The Month over there. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Syklone Report post Posted March 20, 2015 We need to get this translated. I have to know Daiji-sama's thoughts Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ragnarok_F4 Report post Posted March 20, 2015 I'm happy with the changes, I find her runaway game kind of cheap. I think she was an intended oki/setup character and she ended being that plus the best zoner (poor Axl lol). Now she's a more interesting character to me. What is left is to wait for new routes. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Complexity Report post Posted March 20, 2015 Jolly good if people are quitting Ramlethal. Maybe people will stop complaining about her. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Nyaa Report post Posted March 20, 2015 "Ramlethal is an honest character that rewards solid fundamentals" - Quote from somone on Biscuits stream. I think people who complained didn't figure out the matchup and her weaknesses. I actually find the Ram mirror-match to be very interresting and entertaining. I'm kinda sad some are dropping Ram even if they only were after cheap wins. I like watching Ram footage. I don't think that's Venom. Whoops. We need to get this translated. I have to know Daiji-sama's thoughts I tried google translate but it gave me "Ramurezaru of radish is still possible." It really depends on the setup and the character.From the looks of it the swords themselves don't have hurtboxes.The hurtbox seems to be on the familiars that are swinging them.So if their reversal somehow doesn't hit the familiars they are going to get hit by the swords when they run out of invincible frames,which in my opinion is good if you're using the right setups.I'm guessing though,that if they hit the familiars they will be able to RRC their DP and get out for free,or anticipate it and chase them in the air. Another thing is that the familiars will fall if they get hit by a projectile or by a burst(even if it doesn't hit you).I don't know how good the sword neutral is going to be against projectiles like gunflame and Venom's balls in certain situations.I find it bad on paper. Messed up the Quote lol.My answer is in bold That does depend entirely if they are able to RRC if they hit the swords. Oh well rather they lose 50 tension than get out of a DP for free. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RWA Announcer Report post Posted March 20, 2015 I can give you the Google Translate versions if you feel like decoding them! Here's his first one: "Ramlethal of radish is still possible. Part of the character maybe slightly difficult? Especially Toka character that caramel PK. I do fine dash becomes a walk Toka PK or pretty short fine dash. #NewVerRamlethalmemo." His second one is: "Quite interesting also cancel 6HS installation happened Trombone by applying KK to be lower. Let us consider a little recipie. #NewVerRamlethalmemo." He also mentioned that he's happy that her cuteness has NOT been adjusted in 1.1! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Complexity Report post Posted March 20, 2015 I tried google translate but it gave me "Ramurezaru of radish is still possible." He's saying that Ramlethal is still playable, just that she got a bit harder to play. What I can interpret from my limited weaboo japananese anyway. Seems like a lot of people are losing their minds over the Ramlethal nerfs though. I honestly don't think she got hit that hard. I tried a couple of games without deploying swords as a major part of my gameplan today and it wasn't really that bad, although it felt awkward to have both swords on my back most of the time. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
