[FB] EXVSFB Wiki Project

[akai_GO]

WB BK

 

are those different docs/URLs from the first ones (particularly Banshee) that I currently have linked to at the top of the wiki pages?

[burgerkong]

Yeah they are.

 

If you read them, they're a lot more indepth and cover tactics, burst, partners, etc. that the original ones we did didn't cover.

 

Copy+pasting them is perfectly fine by me, but if adn wants to take a look over them too (or at least the ones he's interested in) then that's fine too.

[adn]

Welcome back man. It's no big deal, I've been slacking too and only got back into working on it recently. Trying to do 1 unit's tactics per week and doing the unit responses for fun. Doing them in order atm, RX-78's will be up later today.

 

Incidentally LaGOWE's tactics are done and on the wiki now, burst selection and partners are up next and should be done in a couple days.

 

I'll look over Banshee for sure. 

[allenpergallon]

Welcome back, BK. I too was wondering where you got off too, but the university grind is indeed no joke.

Overall I'm liking the work done on the wiki overall, and the addition of unit responses is a nice optional touch. What I wanted to ask is just how do you guys go about translating the pages? I've been a bit on and off about lending a hand mainly since my Japanese is limited to Katakana and aural recognition of certain phrases or Kanji, and going through something like Google translate always turns out crude. If it really boils down to fumbling with translators and matching up the known game terms to get a coherent result then I'm totally down for putting in some work towards getting more full pages out, but if you guys have an extended knowledge or method to get things done then I may just start with getting some tables setup and filled out since those are less intensive. As things stand now the format is pretty good and I wouldn't want to get too intrusive with any mistakes or oversights to disrupt the status quo.

[adn]

Google Translate alone is going to be nearly useless for this wiki because they use tons of japanese fighting game terms and EXVS-exclusive lingo (akai_GO put up a list of them which does help some) which google translate simply cannot read.

 

To give you some idea, here's a piece of LaGOWE's page:

 

問題の攻撃に関しては地形の起伏が激しいだけでメインが他の機体以上に当て辛く、ブースト的にも厳しいとひたすら苦痛。 

敵にとって有利な場所で待ちゲーされると詰んでると言っても過言ではないので熱くならずに精神戦や連携で頑張ろう。 

 

And here's what Google Translate makes of it:

 

"The pain is the main single-mindedly devoted to spicy aircraft over other terrain relief is just intense, and severe also boost basis for attacking the problem. 

The harambee in cooperation and spirit warfare not hot because it is not an exaggeration to say that picking it to be gated to wait in an advantageous place for the enemy."

 

Needless to say, I don't think many people need to worry about spicy aircraft and spirit warfare when playing LaGOWE.

 

That said, this really only applies to the sections where they get deep into game mechanics like the tactics sections. You can (and I think burgerkong has) probably skate by on using Google and a combination of Rikaikun (fabulous chrome extension) to handle most of the tables. We're very short-handed on help so really anything at all is helpful.

 

There are a ton of pages that burgerkong has already put up on Google Docs but need to be properly transcribed to the wiki pages and it would be a huge help if you (or anyone else) wanted to do even one of those. You can usually find the google doc linked at the top of the unit pages.

[brett_]

Hey guys, sorry about not being as active in the last few months - EVO pretty much consumed all of my time, and then afterwards I decided to sell my soul to play Seth for a month.

 

Big props to the people who have continued contributing, I know the biggest piece missing still is the system mechanics areas which I said I was going to work on - I'm currently still in the processes of pushing out a large video project with similar content, so I will probably be postponing updating that section till that is done so I can more easily throw in overlapping information.

 

also shoutouts to the people who filled in the controls / glossary stuff!

[akai_GO]

@Allen:

Yeah, unfortunately because of the frequent use of non-standard, game terminology and the way a lot of sentences are constructed on the JP wiki, trying to use Google Translate for more than 1 (or some times even only half) of a sentence at a time can make it go into an aneurysm    Like adn said, I did collect and translate the vast majority of these non-standard terms and put them here on the DL wiki for reference and help. I personally love and frequently use Rikaikun extension, but it's just for single words and I really just use it for on-the-spot translating a word/kanji I've never seen before, and so still have to rely on just knowing a certain degree of grammar and sentence structure in addition to the wiki's terminology. I also for every suit I translate sit for hours or days in an empty free battle stage with it, testing sentences that seem strange to me, or combos.

 

That being said though, I definitely echo the sentiments that doing even just the simple translations of movesets, tables, simpler armament explanations (their priority, swerve, etc), combos; setting up tables on the Dustloop wiki for these data; transposing data already collected into the google documents - all of these things are still very important and very appreciated if done. Excluding just blatantly wrong information, any information on a MS's page is better than no information on an MS's page for trying to get these pages suitable for community use as I still see all the time people comment about newly joining the game. And I don't mind at all coming in and doing clean-up/formatting on a page, although at this point I and others have done enough pages that all the formats and tricks I use (like collapsible tables) are very easy to access-copy-paste-change.

 

 

And yeah, I personally have not attempted to do the fundamental pages on movement, damage, theory, etc (and also try to be super careful when translating tactics sections) because I only started playing the game PvP back when FB came out end of January this year, so although I understand the core concepts now, I still don't really feel qualified or comfortable writing those pages that will eventually come to be used by all new players of the game maybe, or discussing some of the finer nuances of some MS-specific theories/tactics (even suits that I've played heavily since vanilla, since I compared to others only recently started PvP play).

[theMaC]

I need to get in and practice more so I cannot for the life of me get the hang of performing it with the Jagd Doga's out

[allenpergallon]

Alright guys, I've started messing around a bit with a random page (Extreme Eclipse) but have mostly been figuring out what goes into editing a wiki page. I'm using F91 and Nu pages as benchmarks, so I'll probably do what transposing I can when I have the time and once I get the feel for the formatting.

 

I need to get in and practice more so I cannot for the life of me get the hang of performing it with the Jagd Doga's out

 

Sazabi thread? lol

[akai_GO]

Alright guys, I've started messing around a bit with a random page (Extreme Eclipse) but have mostly been figuring out what goes into editing a wiki page. I'm using F91 and Nu pages as benchmarks, so I'll probably do what transposing I can when I have the time and once I get the feel for the formatting.

 

Oh man, you picked a difficult one to start with, with the 3 different modes lol. I've been avoiding that one for a while. Look at Strike or Impulse, or one of the other ones that have mode changes instead of Nu or F91 for that one ><

 

 

Addendum: I actually made the table for base stage Extreme thinking it would then be simple to just copy/paste between the other 2. But then I also thought it would be interesting to see if the weapons built Evo Gauge at different rates, and unsurprisingly they did...and then I thought "I should should check if these numbers are different if I choose one of the other Extremes, even though the base form is the same"...aaaaand, they were...so  But hey, I got all the data input for Xenon and Eclipse base modes at least ><

[adn]

Yeah gonna also echo that the Extremes are some pages I've been avoiding as well, but if you wanna do them more power to you. Any unit with any kind of transform is going to be more difficult than ones without.

 

One thing: I'd like it if we keep at least one page as a "template" page to easily copy for creating the skeletons of other pages. I've pretty much just been copying Stargazer's page over and over these past couple days doing the unit responses (RX-78, Chargoog and Acguy are up btw, Zeong later today) because it's the closest to a blank template I've found (several other units have different skeletons/structure set up) but if there's a better way we can have a stock page template that would be cool. 

 

One thing about the unit responses: TONS of these are quotes ripped verbatim from the shows, I actually had to skim through 1-2 episodes of MSG again to figure out a few of them because they are presented out of context (like Char's win screen line about a Zeon medal of honor makes no sense if you haven't seen the scene it's from) so if anyone sees a quote and knows the proper line from the show please feel free to replace my translations.

 

I'm probably going to do all the base units before touching the DLC. Trying to do one per day but some units have quite a few unique responses so they might take longer.

[akai_GO]

One thing: I'd like it if we keep at least one page as a "template" page to easily copy for creating the skeletons of other pages.

 

I added a LOT of those today

 

Gyan, Arche, Susa...anything that has a [D] next to it should have full templates set up now.

[LukewarmHoliday]

Translations sections are great.

[brett_]

Well, it looks like unless I'm reading the edit history on the Banshee Norn page wrong, Akai GO did most of the writing for the banshee page. There's not anything similar in the jp wiki so I'm assuming he just wrote his own thoughts on the suit.

 

I generally think it's not a good idea to do that unless you're confident in your evaluation of the suit, regardless of anything lse.

 

That being said, there IS some merit to saying that Norn has some disadvantages close-range, in the sense that if the opponent is already point blank at you, many of your close range options dont work. Side Sub (the split shot) actually loses to step melee at extremely close distances, down sub and turnaround BR are also often too slow if they're already in optimal melee range. You can certainly always do something like step, turnaround BR -> Sub, but that requires stepping and being off angle, and you can't immediately sidestep after boosting (like you would to try and move out of range). Generally the easy answer is to not let them get that close in the first place and abuse free fall cancels etc to position yourself so you're ready when they close in, BUT just saying if you are caught off guard it's harder than some suits to break free. Also when being knocked down and dealing with similar situations after oki etc.

 

Fuwastep BR -> Neutral Sub is of course good, but at point blank if they step it you're kind of in trouble (see above). 

 

This is just my opinion from experience (played a lot of sets as / vs norn). Not saying I entirely agree with the post about banshee having poor close range options, but just saying there is merit to it despite him having good close range options on paper.

[akai_GO]

I wrote (translated) probably 90% of the Norn page, but the Tactics/Partners is the one part I didn't do (since, I was doing it at the same time that both the FB and MB wiki pages for it were being done, and so there really wasn't any kind of tactics or partner considerations stuff written to translate). I don't know if it was Mikel or Skill, someone from the Skype lobby better than me, and then I went in behind it and just did grammar clean-up.

 

Like I said a few posts up, I extremely shy away from writing tactics about anything given how new I am in the PvP area of the game. I'll translate some stuff from the JP wiki, but I definitely never try to inject my own opinions of "experience" (see: lack of) into any of it.

 

That being said...the wiki is open to edit. If something seems wrong, I openly, strongly encourage people that have been playing the game longer to jump in and do some writing. I can translate some Japanese but don't feel qualified to give opinion on strategy. If others out there can't read a lick of Japanese but have played the shit out of the game and understand it, well there's the opportunity to contribute to the project, you know?

 

I've actually started marking the pages that have everything but the tactics sections written to more easily identify them.

[burgerkong]

Alright, done Xi for now.  Trying to get back into the swing of things, so I went with a suit that had less stuff and simpler write-ups.

 

Props to akai for implementing the collapsible tables, which really do clean up the page.

 

Hopefully I can do more of these, I'll at least transfer my Banshee & X Divider stuff that I've already done.  I'll need some help with several phrases though, unfortunately

[brett_]

but the Tactics/Partners is the one part I didn't do (since, I was doing it at the same time that both the FB and MB wiki pages for it were being done, and so there really wasn't any kind of tactics or partner considerations stuff written to translate). 

 

Ah okay, my bad then.

 

In any case, I don't think that section is terribly wrong per se, but the suit hasn't been out for that long, it might be better to make it more neutral / general until more of a consensus is determined on it.

[LukewarmHoliday]

Stuff

 

A lot of(what I edited away) was me being tired and assuming close range only means self defense, because his self defense is still very good but his aggressive close ranged options aren't too amazing because his melee isn't really exceptional compared to great melees(although they do get the job done)and he isn't the fastest 3k on the block so emphasizing his midrange isn't really wrong.  Also BC is kind of a big elephant in the room at near point blank range, you can step into melee off the initial hit as long as your enemy isn't grounded(or really close to it). Follow up the melee hit with fuwa br sub or something if you're really getting focused.  It straight beats most of anything.  He can still get double locked and pinned down but relative to other suits having BC is still a boon, I treat it like a 2b wire like TX.

 

I just didn't want to complain about anything I don't feel I have the authority to improve since I'm not gonna be confident in my opinions unless I'm MLG 2015 champion of EXVS. 

[ANhiro]

Norn is the fastest 3k on the block, he has WTV mobility along with the boost to back it up lol

[allenpergallon]

So I took the advice and worked on transposing Turn A instead of Eclipse a bit yesterday morning, but stopped after its moveset section since I had a few questions I wanted to bring up (and I was going to change the table style to a more compact one like those of pages such as Turn X if possible).

 

First, for filling in missing data, is it all right to fill in damage values even if they come with a measure of uncertainty? I had training mode open while editing things and mainly looked at Turn A's Abdominal Beam Cannon (raw and melee derivatives) and got the damage for the nuke (using a Turn A test dummy for everything). For the raw 8CSa, the spread shot requires a certain unlikely and specific elevation/scenario to get the damage I recorded, but I still put a (?) after the value since I'm unsure if it's the definitive damage due to the nature of the attack. Do small additions like that get the green light?

Also, the subject was brought up in previous pages, but I'm also curious if a consensus was ever reached regarding things such as BD Melee vs. BDb and capitalization of letters (i.e. 5B vs 5b, CSA vs CSa). I guess I could also ask if we're sticking to "~" for follow-ups/derivatives/whathaveyou  and straight arrows for direct cancels (i.e. Exia general melee into BC, Master general melee into Darkness Finger).

[akai_GO]

First, for filling in missing data, is it all right to fill in damage values even if they come with a measure of uncertainty? I had training mode open while editing things and mainly looked at Turn A's Abdominal Beam Cannon (raw and melee derivatives) and got the damage for the nuke (using a Turn A test dummy for everything). For the raw 8CSa, the spread shot requires a certain unlikely and specific elevation/scenario to get the damage I recorded, but I still put a (?) after the value since I'm unsure if it's the definitive damage due to the nature of the attack. Do small additions like that get the green light?

 

I see question marks alongside damage values, down values, even proration values all the time on the JP wiki. I also frequently see people post a range of damage in situations like you're describing. When I'm testing the stuff I usually do the combo 3+ times to see if I consistently produce the same damage from the attack/combo. If I do, I put that number, and then comment next to it in the notes section about scenario restrictions/concerns (altitude, walls, angles, step direction, whatever) if it seems important or helpful to know.

 

Just put a note, and I'm not nor is anyone else I think going to crucify you

[adn]

Oooh you're gonna do Turn A, nice. I will probably proofread your work and add in his weapons/tactics data then. LaGOWE is coming along nicely, should be done with him soon and then onto Ksha and then I'll prob hop in with you on Turn A unless you want to try your hand at translating his stuff (in which case I will just go through and work with/correct whatever you do)

 

And yeah please don't worry about weird damage values like that. There are plenty of values on the JP wiki where not even they are certain about some exact attack damage values.

 

As for notation, 90% of the time I use ABC with directional inputs etc. It's easier (to my eyes) to read and understand especially for combos, although I guess some beginners may find it initially confusing I think it's overall the easier way so it's best they learn to read it that way.

[Tari]

Putting a (?) next to numbers that are hard to measure should be alright. As long as you measured the value and came up with a reasonable average or something, there's nothing wrong with approximate values. If the numbers are completely wrong, of course, that's a bit different. :P

 

I don't believe we ever came to a real consensus on notation for combos, either. The arrow for direction cancels and the ~ for follow-ups is pretty standard stuff, so I think that's good to go. The problem lies in CC8B, cc8b, bd8B, and  BD8b. I think I prefer the last option, but I don't really recall what my discussion with other folks led to way back when. Even beyond just capitalization of buttons, there's also the problem of things like AB/ab vs Sub, BC/bc vs ??? (melee special?), and AC/ac vs ??? (range special?), or just writing them out as move names (ie: God Gundam AC can be notated as GFD).

[akai_GO]

I don't believe we ever came to a real consensus on notation for combos, either. The arrow for direction cancels and the ~ for follow-ups is pretty standard stuff, so I think that's good to go. The problem lies in CC8B, cc8b, bd8B, and  BD8b. I think I prefer the last option, but I don't really recall what my discussion with other folks led to way back when. Even beyond just capitalization of buttons, there's also the problem of things like AB/ab vs Sub, BC/bc vs ??? (melee special?), and AC/ac vs ??? (range special?), or just writing them out as move names (ie: God Gundam AC can be notated as GFD).

 

I've been using BD8B in the wake of yeah, I don't think there was a firm consensus made lol. But I've been doing it in the mentality that if ever asked to change it I'm happy to.

 

Regarding AB/Sub, AC, BC. I have done...all of those things lol.

 

When I make the moveset tables and attack details I write (for example, God): [AC] Special Shot - God Field Dash (GFD)

 

In writing combos I either use Sub/AC/BC, or I specifically say in a note at the very top "I'm going to use GFD in these combos", and also introduce that sort of terminology at the beginning of the wiki page in the introduction.

[LukewarmHoliday]

People don't always read from top to bottom and since 90% of the people are going to go right to the combo list, seeing stuff like MGaAP/BOP is annoying.  If it can be expressed as buttons+directions just do it that way, K-I-S-S.  In fighting games we could always abbreviate the move names instead of the move inputs since users can just scroll up to associate the names with the moves but we don't because why waste peoples time.

 

Only reason I didn't like BDB notation way back when is that it ignores the up input.