[FB] EXVSFB Wiki Project

[burgerkong]

One last question for Ez8 (almost done).

 

This is with regards to his Burst Attack, it's talking about its relation to the EX gauge I think...?

 

更に1発目の攻撃で落とされなければ覚醒落ちにはならないので覚醒落ちを防ぐ使い方も出来る。

 

Thanks!

[brett_]

And I'm fine for using "origination", instead of "derivation", I just used it since it was the Japanese translation :P

 

This is actually EXACTLY my point. Before EXVS no one actually knew anything about Japanese terminology and went ahead and used very awful literal translations that became the staple of English terms we use. Origination is a perfect example, originating from 派生. Anyone who plays fighting games would realize that this is just "followup", but instead a silly word was constantly used and many NEXT-era people still use it simply because it's always been used even though it's hysterically dumb.  

 

Isn't there supposed to be (or going to be) a page that explicitly lists all the shorthand notation of the game and pages?

 

We may do that at some point, yes. Honestly though even if we do come up with some notation list in the future, I don't think anyone is going to be able to go back and literally re-edit and fix all the notation errors in any one person's, page, nor do I expect everyone to actually follow that notation convention anyways. I have my own opinions, which I will state here, but I don't think anyone has to follow it, it's personally just what I think looks professional vs what looks ugly:

 

Main, BR, Sub, BZ, AC, BC, AB, etc

5B, 6B, 8B, 2B, BD Melee

 

Example Combo: CSa → Sub >> 5B8B(3hit)~A > 8B~BC

 

I realize that I actually didn't edit any of the first wiki page that I used as an example and that may have actually contributed to people leaning towards a certain style of notation. If people actually want to try and settle on one particular format, I don't mind, but it feels like it's mainly preference. For example, many people like writing melees in lower case (6b), and in casual messaging I also tend to lower case, but I generally prefer uppercasing everything if possible simply out of habit because if you go back to Guilty Gear (or other ASW games) notation, you'll notice combos look extremely ugly when written like:

 

5k > f.s > 6h > kj frc > j.pksd > ensenga

 

similarly writing Turn-A's combo as

 

a >> a → ab 

 

looks really gross to me.

 

I personally prefer BD Melee over BD8B because in actual speech, we say BD Melee most of the time in my local scene, and for the reasons I mentioned in my previous post. BDb makes it look like the "b" part of it is minor, and emphasizes the BD portion of the term, which is weird.

 

One last question for Ez8 (almost done).

 

This is with regards to his Burst Attack, it's talking about its relation to the EX gauge I think...?

 

更に1発目の攻撃で落とされなければ覚醒落ちにはならないので覚醒落ちを防ぐ使い方も出来る。

 

Thanks!

 

Apparently if you don't die on the first shot, you won't actually die in burst from the super so it has some uses to prevent dying while in awakening.

[burgerkong]

Main, BR, Sub, BZ, AC, BC, AB, etc

5B, 6B, 8B, 2B, BD Melee

 

Example Combo: CSa → Sub >> 5B8B(3hit)~A > 8B~BC

 

I realize that I actually didn't edit any of the first wiki page that I used as an example and that may have actually contributed to people leaning towards a certain style of notation. If people actually want to try and settle on one particular format, I don't mind, but it feels like it's mainly preference. For example, many people like writing melees in lower case (6b), and in casual messaging I also tend to lower case, but I generally prefer uppercasing everything if possible simply out of habit because if you go back to Guilty Gear (or other ASW games) notation, you'll notice combos look extremely ugly when written like:

 

5k > f.s > 6h > kj frc > j.pksd > ensenga

 

similarly writing Turn-A's combo as

 

a >> a → ab 

 

looks really gross to me.

 

I personally prefer BD Melee over BD8B because in actual speech, we say BD Melee most of the time in my local scene, and for the reasons I mentioned in my previous post. BDb makes it look like the "b" part of it is minor, and emphasizes the BD portion of the term, which is weird.

 

 

Apparently if you don't die on the first shot, you won't actually die in burst from the super so it has some uses to prevent dying while in awakening.

 

I agree for the most part, but BD melee is extremely tedious to type, and I dunno how you'd indicate how many stages of the BD melee you do in the combo (i.e. Quanta BD melee bbb > BD melee bb???)

 

Aside from that, I'm doing everything else as you listed I think.  I currently use ~ to denote derivations (or whatever we're gonna call em), but it doesn't make too much of a difference I guess.

 

And thanks again for the translation brett-sensei

[Z-0010332536893]

I agree for the most part, but BD melee is extremely tedious to type, and I dunno how you'd indicate how many stages of the BD melee you do in the combo (i.e. Quanta BD melee bbb > BD melee bb???)

 

Aside from that, I'm doing everything else as you listed I think.  I currently use ~ to denote derivations (or whatever we're gonna call em), but it doesn't make too much of a difference I guess.

 

And thanks again for the translation brett-sensei

Well, If you dislike the BD writings, you could write cc8b. You can just add stages like so: cc8bbb...

It's also not unexpected to see writings like the following for the sake of writing combo strings: cc8b(4 hits)>nbb-8b>2b (You could also just write the number sans the word if saving space is important for whatever reason.)

The notation is a bit different as it uses dashes to indicate cancel routes and melee originations, and rainbow steps and boost dashes aren't differentiated unless vital to the combo. It is usually implied to BD cancel instead of rainbow stepping, though, since you would only BD cancel the animations that can't be stepped. Regardless, it should be adaptable to what you're using now.

[KillaKincaid]

I have some time on my hands so I'll probably start Gundam F-91's wiki page sometime this week

[brett_]

derivations

 

melee originations

 

Follow-up.

 

Please.

 

If you use origination you're perpetuating the idea that it's okay for people without common sense to dictate terminology. 

 

Derivation is at least a better word in terms of English usage, but I don't see why we'd use it when there are plenty of game genres that use 'follow-up' already. 

 

I'm really baffled as to why this isn't making sense to anyone. Practically every single game that has a concept of a followup / origination / derivation is referred to as a followup. Using anything else honestly makes us look like we're just relying on google-translate.

 

I explained this a few posts ago but to give you an honest history lesson, the reason why origination is traditionally used in Gundam Versus notation is because the original people who wrote information for the games directly translated the word without a clue.

 

==== 

 

I agree for the most part, but BD melee is extremely tedious to type, and I dunno how you'd indicate how many stages of the BD melee you do in the combo (i.e. Quanta BD melee bbb > BD melee bb???)

 

Quanta: BD Melee(3hit) >> BD Melee(2hit)

 

I agree it is more tedious to type, but I also believe it is the most legible and clear as a result (easy on the eyes, immediately recognizable)

 

Because it doesn't explicitly write out the extra B's, it does not explain that you need to input them to get those following hits, which I recognize is a bad thing. (Though to be fair, Gyan's BD melee in the opposite notation style would be BD8BBBBBBBBBBBBBBB lol)

 

I do, however, feel that cc8b and BD8B also have problems, so it's really a discussion about which problems are the most tolerable.

 

While I'm heavily opinionated on the usage of follow-up vs origination/derivation (due to the implications), I'm not really as invested in the discussion regarding the abbreviations of boost dash melee - I'm pretty okay with switching to BD8B and not unwilling to move from my personal usage of BD Melee.

 

I'll re-list the points I've made before regarding my opinion on each (the things I view as disadvantages):

 

cc8b / BD8B: 

 - the 8B in it makes it look like it's referring to the actual 8B in some way, rather than a unique move.

 - as a result of the above, isn't really as legible in the context of a combo: BD8BBBB > AC~A >> Super - is just really hard to read. 

 - written in lower case, so unless everything else is written in lower case, just looks out of place entirely.

 

cc8b only:

 - the only time cc is every used to represent BD'ing. We don't say 'cc cancel' or 'cc~c'.

 

BD8B only:

 - not often used verbally (to my knowledge), whereas cc8b and BD Melee are.

 

BD Melee:

 - longer to write out

 - must be followed with (Xhit) to denote how many hits, rather than extended 'B's, 

 

It's also not unexpected to see writings like the following for the sake of writing combo strings: cc8b(4 hits)>nbb-8b>2b (You could also just write the number sans the word if saving space is important for whatever reason.)

The notation is a bit different as it uses dashes to indicate cancel routes and melee originations, and rainbow steps and boost dashes aren't differentiated unless vital to the combo. It is usually implied to BD cancel instead of rainbow stepping, though, since you would only BD cancel the animations that can't be stepped. Regardless, it should be adaptable to what you're using now.

 

The problem with always using > is that there's no real reason NOT to specify which way to connect each combo part. There are actually plenty of combos that involve boost dash cancelling melee moves due to positioning. 

 

Also I don't see any real reason not to differentiate cancel routes from followups. they're different things. Using 'nbb' implies the desire to be closer to the Japanese notation format, but the Japanese notation format logically differentiates >>, >, →/->, and ~ (派生), whereas what you're trying to illustrate does not. If anything it just seems lazy. I think it's fine for chatting with friends but the current subject is on what ultimately should be the standardized format for all future notations, and what hopefully responsible people will use when writing their wiki pages, which will be what most new players will be referencing, and thus the future majority of the community. One who supports improper or straight up objectively inferior notation is simply perpetuating the very mistakes that are making this discussion necessary in the first place.

[LukewarmHoliday]

I just wanted to point out that there are players like me who would come in completely green and even a simple concept like BDb can go over your head, and youd be inputting boost dash neutral melee.  Even a note/link to a notation page would be fine if it explains that you must press 8 during the boost dash and that it doesnt need to be a forward boost.  Handling that concept just for the independent players who don't have a shoulder to lean on to explain every minor detail is just something I wanted to make sure is achieved.

 

I'm probably going to tweak The O's page in the future because I disagree with a lot of the content(mostly about his neutral game capacity) but I'm going to wait till I'm at least 4 stars so I don't have to correct myself later.  It also seems to suggest YOLO hugs are a good thing which most of the time are not because 2.5k's generally want to conserve HP their first life with a 3k.

 

Also +1 vote against using origination, that word is just plain silly.

[burgerkong]

Follow-up.

 

Please.

 

Follow-up is more than fine with me.  It's a lot easier to type than "derivation" :P

It shouldn't take me too long to switch all of 'em, I'll do it sometime in the week.  Thank god for Ctrl+F.

 

My main gripe with BD Melee is that, for BD melees with multi-hit stages, it becomes impossible to differentiate how many hits of each stage you want.  For example:

 

The O = BD Melee (2hit) > 2B

Since the 1st and 2nd stages are both 2 hits, it becomes impossible to tell if that means 1 hit on each stage or 2 hits of the 1st stage only.

 

I'm personally for BD8B/BDB for this reason, but that's just me.

 

For stuff like Gyan's BDB, I've seen the JP wiki use notation like BDB X 9 (which = BDBBBBBBBB) to reduce the headache.

 

I just wanted to point out that there are players like me who would come in completely green and even a simple concept like BDb can go over your head, and youd be inputting boost dash neutral melee.  Even a note/link to a notation page would be fine if it explains that you must press 8 during the boost dash and that it doesnt need to be a forward boost.  Handling that concept just for the independent players who don't have a shoulder to lean on to explain every minor detail is just something I wanted to make sure is achieved.

 

I'm probably going to tweak The O's page in the future because I disagree with a lot of the content(mostly about his neutral game capacity) but I'm going to wait till I'm at least 4 stars so I don't have to correct myself later.  It also seems to suggest YOLO hugs are a good thing which most of the time are not because 2.5k's generally want to conserve HP their first life with a 3k.

 

Also +1 vote against using origination, that word is just plain silly.

 

Yeah, that's true about the BDB notation, clarification is important for new players.  We really do need a glossary page at some point, though brett's Beginner's Guide does such a good job of it already (can we just copy+paste it from there wholesale?).

 

As for tweaking The O's page, it is an open wiki and free to change, but I'm honestly curious as to what you disagree about.  Most of the stuff I (tried to) translate from the JP wiki, which is itself not a 100% reliable source either since it too is open for anyone to edit.

 

That being said, I don't remember ever suggesting YOLO hugs are a good idea.  6B & 8B are both his best melee combo starters, and in both the 2B Melee Properties and the Tactics sections I say that it has no cut-resistance and takes a while.

 

As a personal note, stars don't mean anything with regards to player skill or game knowledge.  Saying you're "4 stars" doesn't mean that you don't make mistakes ingame or on the wiki that don't need correcting :P

I just got the game last week, so I have 1 star on each suit, but I can beat people who have 3+ stars who haven't learnt the game mechanics & more advanced techniques.  It all comes down to how much you want to invest in the game/how competitive you want to get.

[akai_GO]

Not having a heavy fighting game background, I've used both the word "derivation" and "follow-up", but totally differently...

 

Example, Aile Strike:

 

5BBB

5B~8B

 

I refer to the ~8B as being a derivation of the standard 5B melee attack. My reasoning for that being that when I look at it, really I look at it as a split:

 

       BB

5B

       8B

 

Every MS has a 5B・・・ attack, but not every MS has the ~8B split option - it's a derivative of the base 5B attack chain, right? If anything wouldn't the "origination" be 5B from which the split originates??

 

Follow-up I've used to refer to...literally following an attack or combo with another attack...6BB>[6BB/8B/A/BC/whatever]. With my limited experience in my mind I see "ok, attack string A leaves the opponent in X state and you in Y state, and from these states you have B, C, D options you can choose to follow attack string A with". I feel like if I was playing any other fighting game I'd be like "ok I can follow-up a 2-punch with a roundhouse kick, or hadouken, etc"

 

 

 

Cancels I just see as Y abilities you can change to from X attack without having to spend boost. BR→Sub as opposed to BR>B

 

I've used (#hit) a few times but only in situations where say like, Exia's Trans-Am BD melee attack has 5 hits, but maybe you want to hit with only 2 of them before stepping to something else - BDb(2hit)>. If you're supposed to hit with all of them (like where BK mentioned Gyan having like a 9hit chain?) I just write BDb lol.

 

Again, I'm more than happy to fix any of this as I've only written a few pages so far and it's not as tedious a task as if I get to like 10 ><

[brett_]

@Akai: In case you didn't read what I said, I agree that using derivation makes sense English-wise, but people need to accept that the rest of the gaming universe doesn't use the word when follow-up is already a widely used term. And speaking of English-wise, you're confusing the noun follow-up with the verb, 'to follow up'. a 'follow-up attack' is not the same as 'following up an attack' - A 'follow-up' is basically a cancel route, just like the way you're describing the usage of the word 'derivation'. GP03 has a Ranged Follow-up from his 5BB string. You can literally replace the word 'derivation' with 'follow-up' and not worry about anything. If you're not familiar with fighting games, trust me when I say your description of 'follow-up' is not the noun usage as we're discussing.

 

A concrete example: Vega's Wall Jump, Akuma's Demon Flip, Jam's 236S, these are all moves which are described as having various "follow-ups" - they are core moves that you then input various inputs afterwards to get different branching options, identical to what you're trying to describe. So you'd say

 

"Jam's 236S has five follow-ups: P, K, S, D, and H. Her H follow-up is extremely good for baiting air tech's. 236S~K, on the other hand, is mainly used as a combo option" 

[akai_GO]

ah ok, yeah that's why I was asking because I definitely have extremely little familiarity with the standard vernacular of the fighting game genre XD Thanks for the clarification 

[burgerkong]

So, another quick translation question for Delta Plus

 

Thanks in advance!

 

いつでもデルタ救出に向かえるということもあって、他の機体より慎重に距離をとりながら積極的にL字の選択肢を選んでいくのもいいだろう。

[akai_GO]

So I've seen this enough times now to finally ask the question - when the JP wiki says a shot's startup or such is linked to SA, what is "SA"?? Oh wait, is this "super armor on startup"?? XD

[burgerkong]

So I've seen this enough times now to finally ask the question - when the JP wiki says a shot's startup or such is linked to SA, what is "SA"?? Oh wait, is this "super armor on startup"?? XD

 

Yep.  SA is for sure superarmor.  You'll most commonly see this in Burst Attacks, for obvious reasons.

[akai_GO]

So there's things I like about my wiki pages, and things that I like about BK's pages (I just reference these two because they seem to be the only fully complete pages we have at the moment), and had been trying to figure out how to marry them into one awesome product. I asked my neophyte friends in the game a blind survey of which 2 pages they liked and why, and from that would like to humbly offer a format for the pages:

 

Basic Suit Data (name, cost, transform, JP wiki and dustloop links, etc

Introduction (how the suit is typically played - role, field position, - stand-out/fundamental characteristics/techniques)

Core Moveset Tables

Cancel Routes

Ranged Moveset Details

Melee Moveset Details

Information and Tactics

• EX Burst attack and selection
• Combat Tactics (more detailed than Introduction)
• Partner Considerations
• Other 1 (things that may be really important but don't have an explicit place in the wiki - things like brake canceling, Sazabi's Achakyan, MA modes, differences between Zeta or Mk II versions, etc)
• Other 2 (just separate subsections for whatever might need to be here)

Combos

Videos Links? (I don't know, I asked about this a week or so ago and we seemed to feel like just if you want to or not, no big deal)

 

 

Thoughts? Likes? Dislikes? Do you guys think Burst should be a major heading instead of a subsection? I still have mixed feelings on having subsections or not in the ranged/melee properties headings for each attack, and didn't get a consensus from my friends on it.

 

This is just my neat freak and desire for streamline kicking in here ><

[brett_]

this looks identical to the jp wiki layout other than where the 'introduction' portion is. I don't mind, though I think the intro section should be brief if it's to precede the move list.

 

For the most part, as long as the information is accurate, looks good to me

[shtkn]

i'm not a fan of the colored text for suit cost sections. i don't see any benefits and yellow on grey text is hard to read.

[burgerkong]

Basic Suit Data (name, cost, transform, JP wiki and dustloop links, etc

Introduction (how the suit is typically played - role, field position, - stand-out/fundamental characteristics/techniques)

Core Moveset Tables

Cancel Routes

Ranged Moveset Details

Melee Moveset Details

Information and Tactics

• EX Burst attack and selection
• Combat Tactics (more detailed than Introduction)
• Partner Considerations
• Other 1 (things that may be really important but don't have an explicit place in the wiki - things like brake canceling, Sazabi's Achakyan, MA modes, differences between Zeta or Mk II versions, etc)
• Other 2 (just separate subsections for whatever might need to be here)

Combos

Videos Links? (I don't know, I asked about this a week or so ago and we seemed to feel like just if you want to or not, no big deal)

 

this looks identical to the jp wiki layout other than where the 'introduction' portion is. I don't mind, though I think the intro section should be brief if it's to precede the move list.

 

For the most part, as long as the information is accurate, looks good to me

 

I'm like 99% following the JP wiki, and there they have a heading specifically for Burst Discussion, which is why I include it.  That being said, the JP wiki itself isn't 100% consistent (some pages don't have all the headings), so I feel like as long as its nothing too radical it's not a super big deal.

 

And I'll do my best to keep things accurate, but my japanese is non-existent, so forgive me if something looks out of place or incorrect, and feel free to correct it.

[akai_GO]

i'm not a fan of the colored text for suit cost sections. i don't see any benefits and yellow on grey text is hard to read.

 

Reverted I tried it out late last night just to get it to match the colors in the game, slept on it, woke up and yeah I don't think it really offers that much either. And I 100% agree the yellow is just really difficult to read (even in my sig I have struggled with doing it or not)

[burgerkong]

Sorry for the long delay.  Ez8 is up!

 

Basically everything except the combos section is done (the formatting on the wiki tables makes this my least favourite part for sure lol).

 

Added a few more flourishes with the colors to mimic the JP wiki.  I already started formatting this page like I had the past, so I just kept it as is, basically identical to the JP wiki.

 

Feel free to make corrections if you see any, and shoutouts to adn for the Tactics, Burst, Partner & Cautionary sections.

[brett_]

I really like the image you added at the top - looks great.

[burgerkong]

I really like the image you added at the top - looks great.

 

Thanks lol, my only real complaint with the JP wiki was that it looked pretty bland, so this was a way to help pretty up the page and make the suit easily recognizable for beginners/newcomers to the suit.

 

For anyone who wants to use them, I got them from here (though you'll need to get an account on the wiki before you can upload images).

 

Alternatively, feel free to PM me and I can upload and add the image for you :P

[akai_GO]

Yeah I'm a fan of the images too, but have been expressly choosing to only add them at the end of a wiki page I've been working on as a way of marking "ok, you can bet someone wrote the shit out of this wiki page" compared to the other ones that have been just started and left unfinished lol (the exception currently being Unicorn that I started last week but then got pulled away to buff up the Roux Zeta page for my friend who wanted to try her >< I promise I'll finish Unicorn in the next day or so)

[shtkn]

for images, please follow the naming conventions laid out in the rest of hte wiki

 

for example, an image of Ragna's 5A in BBCP would be named BBCP_Ragna_5A.png

 

since there seems to be only one image per page, just go with EXVSFB_Name.png/jpg

[akai_GO]

Can we revisit the topic of having sub-entries for moveset details? I haven't done so yet because pretty much all the suits I've worked on so far have had mode changes (Unicorn, Strike, etc) and I used the sub-entries to separate same content between the two modes and at the same time reduce overall content clutter (especially in the case of Strike).

 

But looking at BK's Ez8 now (where previously his pages haven't involved equipment/mode changes, and so we just by nature fundamentally employed sub-entries differently), he employs sub-sub-entries.

 

I'm happy to do it either way, I'd just like comments on which way we want to do it so it all looks the same