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[CP 1.1] Iron Tager Gameplay Discussion

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Now your talking about something different than i was. For example if you do 5a>5b>3c and they GCOD against your 5b and make 3c whiff, then ofcourse you wont be able to do anything about it. What I was talking about the entire time was in regards to what i quoted where they said the opponent OD cancels from Tager’s 3c. I know you cannot currently voltec cancel 720 if you do it from a gatling, My speculation about VC>720 was if they made voltec cancel 720 easy enough to where you could do it from a gatling then it could be possible. In this case, even if they still don't make VC>720 possible from a gatling couldn't you just do voltech counter instead with its new hammer guardpoint to block and counter most GCOD reversal attempts?

I know exactly what you said and the answer is no. There is a super flash where they get to see the 720 before their invulnerability wears off and since they are going for a punish rather than a reversal because they are like +10. If they wanted to reversal you they don't need to OD. I Suppose you could make the argument that VTC could have some sort of beneficial impact in this scenario, but your mix up in that case would be VTC/Asledge (otherwise they'd just rush you down because ODing lets them recover faster than any move you can throw from there). That is not a pretty place to be and it gets worse for every frame you hesitate after the first possible frame. But then if they delay ever so slightly they can just look at your follow up and block it, putting them majorly at advantage.

 

Personally I think the entire discussion over GCODing 3C isn't as interesting as talking about using it to make things whiff. I bring it up because there's some seriously interesting places you can OD or be ODed for great effect. Also blocking 3C is very advantagious already. Why waste a burst to make it even better? Tager's options a weak and slow at that point.

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I know exactly what you said and the answer is no. There is a super flash where they get to see the 720 before their invulnerability wears off and since they are going for a punish rather than a reversal because they are like +10. If they wanted to reversal you they don't need to OD. I Suppose you could make the argument that VTC could have some sort of beneficial impact in this scenario, but your mix up in that case would be VTC/Asledge (otherwise they'd just rush you down because ODing lets them recover faster than any move you can throw from there). That is not a pretty place to be and it gets worse for every frame you hesitate after the first possible frame. But then if they delay ever so slightly they can just look at your follow up and block it, putting them majorly at advantage.

 

Personally I think the entire discussion over GCODing 3C isn't as interesting as talking about using it to make things whiff. I bring it up because there's some seriously interesting places you can OD or be ODed for great effect. Also blocking 3C is very advantagious already. Why waste a burst to make it even better? Tager's options a weak and slow at that point.

 

Ok, thanks for answering my questions about it. I only brought up 3c because thats where the guy at the location test said they were using GCOD against him.

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I mean Tager's can always resort to raw 5A/5B/2A (possibly 2B?) tickthrow games instead of 3C>4D or the very unreal 3C>236A game. I really don't think 3C being a free GCOD cancel is that big of a deal, it just means we'll have to slightly adapt our pressure when the opponent has OD. We can adapt. Neutral jump barrier guard. 5A game. We can adapt with very slight alterations to our pressure. I think Tager having OD, on the other hand, causes your opponent to play so differently. They'll already scared of Spark Bolt, imagine how scared they'd be if we had spark bolt AND overdrive. If they're magnetized 720C catches opponents from like 1/3 screen away on the 1st active frame.

 

I dunno. I'm just excited to see changes. I think this is a good thing and an absolutely ridiculous tool. It's such a mindgame.

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I'm just excited to see changes. I think this is a good thing and an absolutely ridiculous tool. It's such a mindgame.

I think it sucks.  I still think the Overdrive system as a whole sucks.  It's too beneficial to some characters, and shitty for some.  Like people who already had an install now have a shittier version of it that uses a Burst.  And especially things like Tager's GETB, that lost 600 damage just so they could add it back in Overdrive and try to justify it.  (If you ask me, it should've stayed 5620 in AND out of Overdrive)

 

If you ask me, BlazBlue is rapidly losing balance and becoming more and more messy.  They need to add stuff to the game at a slower rate so they can refine it more before releasing it, instead of shitting stuff out quickly that begs patching.

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Don't get me wrong, I think Overdrive is by and large a shit mechanic. Unnecessary and added to teh game for no reason. I just think GCOD benefits Tager (and Makoto & Jin, and probably other DP characters) more than other characters. In theory, it makes the worst characters in the game (EXCEPT KAGURA RIP) better.

Again. In theory. For the record I still think it's a dumb mechanic. Encourages stupid and unsolid play. I'd rather see his neutral tools get better as opposed to some gimmick on a timer, but I'll take what I can get.

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I'd MUCH rather have Gold Bursts and Guard Primers than what we have now. Guard Primers was like a whole secondary offensive game. Spending 25 Heat on a random one-off shot to Guard Crush is stupid. And some characters (like Noel) have basically no reason to use Guard Crush in combos because it adds nothing and is hard to do, while others can get pretty decent results for 25 Heat.

Anyway, long story short: All the new systems aren't balanced and they just feel tacked-on.

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There's always gonna be 'worst characters' in the game.And the old mechanics were extremely unbalanced too.  In the end that's just balance. OD is more unique and interesting, differentiates characters a bit better, which is their real goal anyway (with balance taking a backseat).

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Here's a good example:  Hazama gets a life-steal ring.  He actually gains an entirely new ability.  A new ability that is INCREDIBLY useful.  What does Noel get?  Essentially nothing.  The only real noteworthy boost is the ability to chain 5C into 5D so she can link standing normals into standing Drives.  And what about characters that had installs before CP?  Like Bang, who can't hold FuRinKaZan for the duration of the round anymore.  Talk about a HUGE nerf.  Or Ragna, who's "Blood Kain" duration is now at the mercy of his health meter.  And Tager's OD is borderline useless just like Noel's.  If they wanted it to actually be useful, OD should automatically force magnetism and also automatically fill his Spark Bolt meter.  I'd take that over having a quick-fill on the meter.  Actually, the best use Tager has for OD is to stop the timer for 15 seconds so he can try to not lose by time out!

 

And the old mechanics weren't unbalanced at all, because it was the SAME FOR EVERYONE.  Everyone had Primers and Gold and Green Burst stocks and they all functioned the same.  The only thing that was different was the amount of Primers, and the only significant deviation was Tager with 10, but that actually made sense due to his character design.

 

With Overdrive, the best use BY FAR is the ability to lock out your opponent's Burst.  But that is a shitty design.  The ability to remove gameplay mechanics from your opponent.  I'm surprised ArcSys doesn't make a new "Drive Cancel" system, where you can spend a Burst AND 50 Heat and it disables your opponent's D button.

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Each character is suppose to be unique and differentiated from each other via their signature drive moves. Overdrive just amplifies those signature moves. Let's say everybody's Overdrives in the game were the same: activate it and you get +200% (double damage) to all your moves. Do you know how broken some characters would be? Do you know what we call that? Marvel.

And the old mechanics weren't unbalanced at all, because it was the SAME FOR EVERYONE.

Gold Bursts differed in rewards from character to character. Some characters could get better combos off Gold Burst over others, so it's not really the same for everyone. As for Primers vs Crush Trigger, you could get guard crushed under the Primer system just because you're getting cheesed out by like a Nu, Mu, Arakune, etc. Under the Crush Trigger system, it's on you because it's based on reaction and knowledge. Galileo at EVO got away with Crush Triggering against his opponents because not everybody is used to that style and thus lacked reaction. It showed the difference in skills. Under the Primer system, you probably would find yourself holding Barrier Block more often then you should. Under Crush Trigger system, you can be more lenient with your Barrier Gauge. Overall, I say the Crush Trigger system promotes more skills over cheesiness/abusable mechanics.

OD should automatically force magnetism and also automatically fill his Spark Bolt meter

You should really only be saying one. Having both is a little too extreme. If you get unlimited/instant Spark Bolt you shouldn't have a problem getting them magnetized. If you have forced magnetism, then you really shouldn't be rewarded an instant Spark Bolt on the side. It should just be one or the other...

Overdrive, the best use BY FAR is the ability to lock out your opponent's Burst. But that is a shitty design. The ability to remove gameplay mechanics from your opponent.

Just depends how you want to use it and what your playstyle is like. Some people use it like that, some people use it as a second chance when the clock is low, and some people use it as a reversal. All just opinions and preferences. Overall, you're still sacrificing your Burst in exchange to try to secure a victory game, which is fair.

disables your opponent's D button.

We RPGs/MOBAs up in here now.

(My points are my opinionated views and don't necessarily reflect what others may think.)

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That video isn't doing his OD any favors. He made a normal whiff and just did a 360 when he landed. The best thing it has going for it is giving us a few more gimmicky 720 setups like 5A>5B>5C>6A>OD>5A>2B whiff>720, and giving us that little bit of extra oomph on MTW when we go for the kill. Just saving it to burst in emergencies is far better than actually using it in most situations.

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And the old mechanics weren't unbalanced at all, because it was the SAME FOR EVERYONE.  Everyone had Primers and Gold and Green Burst stocks and they all functioned the same.  The only thing that was different was the amount of Primers, and the only significant deviation was Tager with 10, but that actually made sense due to his character design.

 

This right here is jokes. Did you even play before CP? Lambda Tsubaki is a super fun example of just how much the old system favored Lambda. Lambda, a character with lots of ways of breaking primers.  If you use a burst, you lose half your primers. Large parts of her combos are completely burst safe. Also very often able to apply pressure from outside of gold burst range. Lambda doesn't have a DP, so benefits a ton more from having a gold burst. And when she does land the gold burst, she gets what, 4-5k off it? Even if you land a gold burst with tsubaki you're looking at typically 2k. And Tsubaki has next to no ability to break primers. Oh right, you also lose a primer if you counter assault!  A penalty that is extremely hard to take advantage of when you have no ability to break primers. The system also allows for Lambda to run away almost without limit, whereas if you backdash twice with tsubaki to try to get some charge, you're in negative penalty.

 

not unbalanced at all? Yeah, Right. The old mechanics totally fucked my character over.

 

OD is definitely not balanced so it provides the same benefit for everyone. Some characters get more benefit from their ODs than others.  That is ok. The overall balance matters.

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You also forgot to mention the part where several characters had pretty safe blockstrings that could break multiple primers very easily. I remember Mu being able to break 2primers just with her charged Sword of Decimation.

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Breaking Primers was an active pursuit.  Not just, "Oh, I know that this guy never uses Barrier, so I'll one-shot him for a free combo every time."  And the loss of Primers after a Burst was a risk/reward situation, which became amplified if you stocked 2 Bursts and used them both on the final round.

 

And you say the old mechanics fucked your character over?  Well the new mechanics aren't fair to mine.  But since the old mechanics were the same for everyone, it just meant that your character sucked and needed fixed, not that the whole system was damaged.

 

@Mac - Arakune is the least fair character ever conceived.  The system used doesn't even matter with him, because his Curse is so ridiculous. 

 

@Valthazeryus - Everyone's OD shouldn't be the same;  OD shouldn't even exist in the first place.  And I didn't mean Tager would get unlimited Spark Bolts.  I meant he would just get 1 single Spark Bolt without any waiting, and after used, it would recharge at the normal rate.

 

Edit:  Oh, and saying that a certain character can't get any combo damage after a Gold Burst isn't really legit.  It has nothing to do with the Gold Burst itself.  Every character's Gold Burst functions identically.  Not getting any damage has to do with character combo ability.  Gold Burst = Free combo, in base terms.  What happens during that combo is gonna depend on your character's ability.

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I'm saying that claiming the old mechanics were balanced is bullshit.  The new mechanics aren't completely balanced. 

 

They don't even try to be.

 

They're a very unique thing for each character that can be tuned and balanced independently for each character.

 

It is ok if some characters benefit more from their OD.

 

It was ok that some characters benefited more from the guard primer system.

 

Really you just are upset that your character isn't S.

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He means that in the case of guard primers, the actual mechanic was the same across the board. It's just that they affected characters differently because of the characters themselves.

Whereas he says for OD, each character has a unique OD all to himself, so that's different than everybody having the same thing and benefitting differently from it.

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Characters are the baseline, not the system.

 

any system you add on to the game is going to be more helpful to various characters. Or else people wouldn't freak out quite so much about GCOD. (Totally balanced mechanic by the way, it's the same for everyone!!!)

 

Actually nothing about guard primers is the same across the board, since the way characters take guard primers is completely dependent on the character.

 

Crush trigger is almost the same for all characters.

 

I'm confused though, b/c on the one hand we've got someone complaining about crush trigger, being almost the same mechanic for all characters, and complaining about overdrives because they're a system unique to each character.

 

In the end it's all about the overall balance.

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OD raid is going to blow Tager up hard. Really, it's going to cause everyone to fight scared because it's going to be a free punish, likely with an ideal starter, against any kind of pressure with longer whiff recovery than A buttons, and that flat-out sucks. I could OD raid with Azrael and punch you in the mouth with BHS, and if we're near the corner I was just given a free 8k combo on a silver platter. Hazama's already been documented with silly damage out of it. This is something every character will be capable of, and Tager has some of the worst whiff recovery in the game.

 

You think OD Raid > 5620 damage is going to be scary? GTFO, that's going to be a baseline.

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He means that in the case of guard primers, the actual mechanic was the same across the board. It's just that they affected characters differently because of the characters themselves.

Whereas he says for OD, each character has a unique OD all to himself, so that's different than everybody having the same thing and benefitting differently from it.

Yes!

 

Characters are the baseline, not the system.

No!

 

The system is the baseline.  Systems dictate the normal course of gameplay.  In the case of Extend and down:

 

Every character has health.  When it reaches zero, you lose.

Every character gets Heat.  50 Heat spent = Distortion/Rapid Cancel/Counter Assault.  100 Heat = Astral.

Every character has Guard Primers.  Zero Primers = Guard Crush.

Every character has a max of 2 Bursts.  Gold Burst = vertical launch, Green Burst = horizontal launch.  Use of Burst causes loss of Primers.

Every character has a Barrier gauge.  No Barrier = increased damage inflicted.

 

The systems in place affect everybody in the same way.

 

In the case of Overdrive:

 

Every character has Overdrive.  Using it = ???  Oh, it's vastly different for everybody.

 

And yes, Crush Triggers do work the same for everyone, but it removes a level of strategy from the game.  Watching your Primers and your opponents requires close monitoring of your defensive and offensive strategies.  Saving 2 Bursts for a single round sounds like a good idea at first, but is it worth doing to only have 1 Primer in the final round?  Also, having to actively pursue a Guard Crush by picking Primer removing attacks and doing so without any time for Primer recovery is better than just spending Heat and hoping it works.

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How long did guard libra last?

How long did guard primers last?

Gold bursts? Guard Bursts?

 

How long has Ragna had a DP?

How long has Rachel had wind? cat chair?

How about magnetism?

 

The systems change, and the systems benefit different characters more than others.   You want to throw GDOC into a game, it is going to help some characters much more than others.  Tager is one of them.

 

Again, you're just angry because a system in the game does not benefit you as much as it benefits other people.  I'm not angry that Ragna has much more use for rapid cancels. I'm not angry that Nu benefits from counter assaults so much. Whatever.

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I meant he would just get 1 single Spark Bolt without any waiting, and after used, it would recharge at the normal rate.

What if you're already full, yet you want to use the Overdrive?

 

And yes, Crush Triggers do work the same for everyone, but it removes a level of strategy from the game.  Watching your Primers and your opponents requires close monitoring of your defensive and offensive strategies.  Saving 2 Bursts for a single round sounds like a good idea at first, but is it worth doing to only have 1 Primer in the final round?  Also, having to actively pursue a Guard Crush by picking Primer removing attacks and doing so without any time for Primer recovery is better than just spending Heat and hoping it works.

I just stated in my earlier post that it adds more level of strategy and that it reduces the cheesiness from Nu, Mu, Arakune, etc. And the removal of 2 bursts for a rechargeable burst was also an improvement.

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The rechargeable Burst is ok, but there's no longer a downside since there's no Primers. It used to be that Bursts caused a defensive loss. In CT it immediately depleted the Barrier and in CS it halved Primers. In CP you just wait for another. In fact, it is almost wise to Burst immediately because you'll probably get your Burst back later within the same round, assuming you don't get steamrolled by your opponent.

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its like arguing with a wall xd build up an army of pro-guardprimer-ists or go and have fun playing extend, legacy
if the GCOD continues, seems like ill keep having fun with bbcp1.1 until the next iteration... or bbcp1.0, dat backdash... x3

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