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[CP 1.1] Iron Tager Gameplay Discussion

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The thing about the guard primer system is that it created an artificial strength/weakness in characters. Every character's primer breaking moves were different, and ranged every where from "safe" to "stupidly unsafe." Which means that some characters were able to utilize the system for their benefit, and others got the short end.

 

Yeah, Tager had 10 primers. So what? Nobody was going to try using unsafe moves on a grappler anyway. And the characters that could do it safely (Arakune/Lambda/etc) didn't care that Tager had 10 primers; they would guard break him anyway. As far as Tager was concerned, all the system did was accentuate his worst matchups.

 

The guard primer system was an attempt to be an equal thing for everybody, but the important thing about any system mechanic is that it needs to be fair. Which guard primers was't. Which is why they discarded it and went with a system where equality is off the table. The overdrive system amplifies the abilities a character already has. Of course, what an OD can do for a character depends on what that character depends on for winning. For example:

 

Hakumen has magatama, so his OD increases magatama gain. This turns him into a monster combo machine.

A few characters had old DDs rolled into their OD (Ragna/Bang/Litchi). Bang and Litchi got a new DD, and Ragna's DbD became baseline. Their overall gameplay was expanded.

 

Tager's OD benefits him primarily in neutral. It adds magnetism to his 720, a move which only works outside of combos. It increases the gain on spark bolt, which is his ace in the hole at full/mid screen distance. It passively pulls in magnetized opponents, which has no real application outside footsies. So far, so good, IMO.

 

It also adds wallbounce/slide to his D moves, which is supposed to expand his combo options... but there's a problem with that. His D moves aren't actually good for combos.

1) They are all 72 P2, even in OD.

2) OD removes cornerbounce from j.D/4D and replaces it with wallbounce. Which leads to this lovely issue with OD corner combos:

 

j.D: cornerbounces, allows some followup into GP

OD j.D: wallbounces, opponent bounces beyond Tager and out of the corner

 

I get the impression Tager's OD was meant to improve his combos like it does everybody else, but it wasn't thought out very well and instead kills his combos. On the other hand, if OD did nothing at all to Tager's drive, it would be a good option, because the ability to freeze the timer and lock out bursts is still valuable even if it does nothing else. Instead Tager players have to avoid using it at all, except for spark bolts and slightly increased damage to MTW.

 

TL;DR: There's nothing inherently wrong with a system with asymmetrical benefits. Some characters just need more changes than others to make it work.

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The balance of a guardbreak mechanic depends less on the guardbreak mechanic itself and more on how the characters are tweaked to take advantage of it. It's not inherent to the mechanic. For example, they could just change Arakune and Nu's guard breaking moves to be things that are less useful. (Although once Arakune has you in curse it's kind of hard to stop that regardless of what move he's going to use...)

The more important thing is what kind of gameplay it encourages. For instance, guard libra in CT was like a tug of war that you'd lose if you were in pressure too long, and had to put the enemy in pressure to recover from. So it encouraged you to get in their face and attack.

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I think both guard primers and crush triggers are bad systems, but that's just me. (and I didn't really play CT, but guard libra just seems terrible.)

 

Your right they all suck they should just give Tager his CP unlimited version drive for his OD so he can welcome everyone to guard crush city!

 

However i did love when Terra break was an instant guard crush in CT and when Sparkbolt guard crushed in CSE. They should both still do that now......

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The balance of a guardbreak mechanic depends less on the guardbreak mechanic itself and more on how the characters are tweaked to take advantage of it. It's not inherent to the mechanic. For example, they could just change Arakune and Nu's guard breaking moves to be things that are less useful. (Although once Arakune has you in curse it's kind of hard to stop that regardless of what move he's going to use...)

The more important thing is what kind of gameplay it encourages. For instance, guard libra in CT was like a tug of war that you'd lose if you were in pressure too long, and had to put the enemy in pressure to recover from. So it encouraged you to get in their face and attack.

 

It's one thing to force a character to use less safe moves to break primers, but how would you implement that on a character like Lambda? She's practically the anti-thesis of risk. Not to mention, her sickle and spike specials were unsafe to use out of nowhere; it was Tager himself who couldn't deal it well enough to avoid getting guard broken.

 

I don't know if you realize this, but crush trigger is guaranteed to land on someone who has no barrier left (aka "danger state"). IMO, it's not so much about using it and hoping your opponent doesn't remember to press A+B, but more about pressuring them to the point of draining their entire barrier so that crush trigger is sure to work. In that sense, it kind of mimics the way guard libra worked.

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If anything, I dont like crush trigger because it isnt used enough. I forget it is there sometimes. I do like it 100× more than guard primers, fuck that shit. On an off note, guard Libra just sounds like a really cool system mechanic, reminds me of unib Grind Gauge tug of war

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Guard Libra was terrible.  The main issue is that since it was a tug-of-war, only one person was in risk of a Guard Crush.  With Primers and Crush Triggers, you're both at risk of getting Guard Crushed.  Guard Libra was more a mechanic to keep people from turtling, then Primers and Crush Triggers slowly turned it into more of an offensive option.

 

Also, you can't say that OD only boosts characters inherent abilities, because Hazama doesn't inherently have life steal.  He gains it during OD.  Now Ragna should be the one getting a life steal ring by your logic, since that's his actual Drive.  And yes, I know that U.Hazama has the life steal ring, but that's Unlimited.  If we're going that route, then Tager should gain the ability to run during OD and Noel should get 8 Chain Revolver Links.  Things would get ridiculous pretty quick if every OD meant Unlimited moves added.  Even though I already think the game is on a slippery slope...

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To be fair, I don't think Hazama getting the life steal ring has any real logic, lol.

 

I mean, not every character is strictly subject to the rule, and it's mostly my own interpretation anyway. Litchi's OD being an egregious case. ASW was struggling all throughout CS to find a balance for Daisharin and couldn't get it. Overdrive was basically an opportunity for them to keep it from being used every knockdown without also nerfing it out of existence.

 

I actually think it would be interesting if more ODs did that. Like Tager's. Imagine if OD turned him into a volcano that spewed spark bolts in every direction.

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Arcsys really doesn't understand the meaning of the word "balance".

 

Another thing that's been grinding my gears is Terumi.  He is broken by design.  I already think that having many, many Distortions is dumb, but having extreme Heat gain is broken as hell.  On the one hand he needs the Heat for his Distortions, which is just whatever at this point, but on the other hand, it gives him a raw, statistical defensive advantage.  Since Heat is used for more than Distortions, Terumi is the only character who can drop Counter Assaults, Crush Triggers, and Rapid Cancels with no real consequence.  Having characters be OP is one thing, but giving characters abilities that far exceed the baseline system is stupid.  Would've made more sense for his Heat gain to be normal, but Distortions only cost 25 Heat and everything else still costs 50.  But even that is still stupid.

 

And speaking of shitty balance, Tager needs his old back dash back.  His new one is worthless.  I'm pretty sure I've had a better success rate back dashing with Noel than Tager.

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Arcsys really doesn't understand the meaning of the word "balance".

Another thing that's been grinding my gears is Terumi. He is broken by design. I already think that having many, many Distortions is dumb, but having extreme Heat gain is broken as hell. On the one hand he needs the Heat for his Distortions, which is just whatever at this point, but on the other hand, it gives him a raw, statistical defensive advantage. Since Heat is used for more than Distortions, Terumi is the only character who can drop Counter Assaults, Crush Triggers, and Rapid Cancels with no real consequence. Having characters be OP is one thing, but giving characters abilities that far exceed the baseline system is stupid. Would've made more sense for his Heat gain to be normal, but Distortions only cost 25 Heat and everything else still costs 50. But even that is still stupid.

And speaking of shitty balance, Tager needs his old back dash back. His new one is worthless. I'm pretty sure I've had a better success rate back dashing with Noel than Tager.

Terumi is a very meh character(SOOO ONE DIMENSIONAL), so I will just say meh. But yea tager needs his OG backdash

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Another thing that's been grinding my gears is Terumi.  He is broken by design.  I already think that having many, many Distortions is dumb, but having extreme Heat gain is broken as hell.  On the one hand he needs the Heat for his Distortions, which is just whatever at this point, but on the other hand, it gives him a raw, statistical defensive advantage.  Since Heat is used for more than Distortions, Terumi is the only character who can drop Counter Assaults, Crush Triggers, and Rapid Cancels with no real consequence.  Having characters be OP is one thing, but giving characters abilities that far exceed the baseline system is stupid.  Would've made more sense for his Heat gain to be normal, but Distortions only cost 25 Heat and everything else still costs 50.  But even that is still stupid.

 

Terumi broken? Maybe if you mean he isn't really functional, or subpar most of the time. His CT is utter crap, the only thing he can RC to get damage is 6c, and unless you're not doing anything stupid he won't be able to land it. NEVER. CA is meh, Terumi's defensive options are SHIT without meter, you can abuse him all you want, he won't be able to do much really.

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Arcsys really doesn't understand the meaning of the word "balance".

 

Another thing that's been grinding my gears is Terumi.  He is broken by design.  I already think that having many, many Distortions is dumb, but having extreme Heat gain is broken as hell.  On the one hand he needs the Heat for his Distortions, which is just whatever at this point, but on the other hand, it gives him a raw, statistical defensive advantage.  Since Heat is used for more than Distortions, Terumi is the only character who can drop Counter Assaults, Crush Triggers, and Rapid Cancels with no real consequence.  Having characters be OP is one thing, but giving characters abilities that far exceed the baseline system is stupid.  Would've made more sense for his Heat gain to be normal, but Distortions only cost 25 Heat and everything else still costs 50.  But even that is still stupid.

You lost me there.

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(or at least some real super armor)

btw, can you do the 3 air loops from 5b5c6a3c236a 5a j.abc j.abc sj.acd? i don't know if i'm messing up the timing or it doesn't work anymore, i think i can pull it out from 5b3c tho

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(or at least some real super armor)

btw, can you do the 3 air loops from 5b5c6a3c236a 5a j.abc j.abc sj.acd? i don't know if i'm messing up the timing or it doesn't work anymore, i think i can pull it out from 5b3c tho

Are you talking about BBCP1.11? If so, yes, you can do three loops of it without magnetism (at the start) and still end it with Grand Punish; however, the timing is really strict. Works better in corners. 3061 before Grand Punish, 3431 after Grand Punish.

 

 

Possible to open a section :"BBCP 2.0 for Tager" ?

I've been wondering this as well. I think "BBCP 2.0 Tager Speculation" would be better for now then create an actual 2.0 when it launches. It'd be a better way to separate moreso the facts from the opinions/speculations/hypotheses. Could I or anyone of us just start it ourselves or do we have to just wait for AXIS?

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Do we really need a speculation thread? At this point in time, there's only one loketest completed, pretty much everything factual has been laid out earlier in a single post, and we still don't know anything pertaining to a second loketest as far as I know. If there's a second loketest already announced, I'll gladly open a thread for 2.0 Tager, but right now I don't see any use other than shoveling clouds.

 

Of course, if there's a second loketest coming and I didn't see the news, welp, call me out on it.

 

As for the discussion at hand :

 

Terumi isn't broken. At all. They made him so that his godlike design of producing meter like a monster is greatly toned down by what he can do with it. His counter assault is his 6A, the move that whiffs on pretty much everyone crouching point blank (except Tager and that's it?) and whiffs on most standing that are farther than a character's length. That means his Counter Assault will whiff most of the time or get blocked if ever... He only has one meterless overhead, namely his j.2D? which can't combo easily off of it, is not safe, and whiffs on everyone by crossing them up (except Tager AGAIN) when it's tk'd point blank. Not that great. To offset that, he has a command grab that is rather slow and easy to react to, so still not extremely powerful. And as mentionned before, RC'ing stuff into dmg doesn't really exist outside of 6C. He is viable as a character, yes. Broken, no.

 

Guard libra was a terrible mechanic, namely because characters that were of the 'rush down' type were at a direct advantage over defensive or 'turtling' or blocking ones, Hakumen and Tager for instance.

 

Guard Primers were ok as a concept, but the primer breaking moves were not implemented with equalness to every characters, so it was meh at best.

 

Crush Trigger is basically having only one primer at all times, but there's only one primer breaking move for everyone (or so) that costs 25 meter to do it. Everyone has the same startup ish, everyone can block it with barrier, the only real difference is how much of a reward do you get on guard break or actual hit, and how much more safe it is.

 

I'm not that fond of guard breaks in FGs, but Crush Trigger is, I think, the better one in the Blazblue franchise right now.

 

I'm all for having discussions about the game system and characters though. As long as we have polite, clear argumentation and that the debate is evolving, let's have fun.

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Crush Trigger is basically having only one primer at all times, but there's only one primer breaking move for everyone (or so) that costs 25 meter to do it. Everyone has the same startup ish, everyone can block it with barrier, the only real difference is how much of a reward do you get on guard break or actual hit, and how much more safe it is.

That's a pretty fair assessment.  However, always being at "1 Primer" removes the whole defensive risk to using your Burst (halves Primers), as well as the offensive strategies required to break guard.

 

Also, I'm not saying Terumi isn't a viable player.  What I'm saying is that he's a strong deviation from the system norm.  It would be like creating a new character based on "HP Drive" and giving him 30,000 HP.  Maybe he/she would be a shitty character to offset this, but even still, it's a bad and lazy design.

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I was never keen on using a burst making you more vulnerable anyway. You're already spending a precious resource to do it with. Why take more stuff away? Guilty Gear never did that, that I'm aware of.

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Well, in CT, a Burst immediately and permanently (at least for that round) depleted your Barrier and increased your damage taken.  That was such a big loss that everyone used their Bursts identically:  At the very last safe moment before a loss.  Bursting any sooner than that just meant you were gonna get your ass handed to you.

 

In CS, you maintained your Barrier, so damage loss was the same, but you were still dealt a defensive blow, and using 2 Bursts in a single round upped the loss even more.

 

In CP, you are only penalized by the loss of a regenerating Burst.

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