[UNIEL] Waldstein

[stickystaines]

I always like to go into 46A for the corner. You cant move forward after it though since if they forward tech they'll get out, but even at the range it leaves you, it's still stupidly scary for the opponent. You can try for a 236B CS into 3.5k, if they block that then after CS you can command grab or run whatever with the advantage you get from 236B. You can just wait a bit and 360B them or wait and try to react to what they'll do to get out.

 

At a certain range it seems better to go for j.[C] > dash 2B > 5B > 236A/B route since it will leave them in the corner anyway with an actual knockdown, but anywhere not in that range i go for 46A

[Loli-Zero]

I agree with Sticky.

Does 2B beat backdash in the post 4B situation?

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[Shadow Ninja 64]

Before jiyuna drove himself to insanity on the path of successfully infiniting someone on ranked netplay, I noticed that he has a tendency to end his BnB early, at 4B, rather than going into 360/GodPress, due to the positioning and RPS opportunities the 4B provides (step forward 360, 2B, block a reversal). Worth doing?

 

I could see an argument for ending certain combos that have already used their bounces/re-stands in 4B for that sort of thing every now and then as a gimmick, but in general I think comboing into 4B XX [4]6A to gain the corner is a far more threatening option.  I also don't like ending in 360A after the 4B at all because it leaves you in the worst position of all for a very marginal damage increase.

 

At a certain range it seems better to go for j.[C] > dash 2B > 5B > 236A/B route since it will leave them in the corner anyway with an actual knockdown, but anywhere not in that range i go for 46A

 

Also worth noting that the j.B j.C j.6C, j.C j.6C, j.C j.B XX j.214A ender has quite a bit of carry to it.  I can't remember for certain and I can't test it right now but I think it also does more damage than the j.[C] dash 2B 5B 5C XX 236A route.

[GodPress]

Also worth noting that the j.B j.C j.6C, j.C j.6C, j.C j.B XX j.214A ender has quite a bit of carry to it.  I can't remember for certain and I can't test it right now but I think it also does more damage than the j.[C] dash 2B 5B 5C XX 236A route.

It does indeed do slightly more damage like 50/60.

[Mike Z]

Question about the infinite: if the enemy wallbounces off one of the 6C's what did i do wrong? not close enough to the wall or wrong timing?

 

also thanks Mike Z for posting that

If you get a couple and then they wallbounce, you pressed it too late.

If they wallbounce off the first one you were either not all the way in the corner, or pressed it too late.

Just do it ASAP every time, or mash, until you learn what the timing should look like.

[madigawadesperate]

welp, better start talking to people about banning that set up at tournaments 

[Hecatom]

Shut up scrub

[madigawadesperate]

Actually scrubs will use infinites to win tournies, check yo self

[worldjem7]

Wald's charge time on his charge move is 38f.

 

So far that is the fastest charge time I know in UNIB.

[Loli-Zero]

Actually scrubs will go 0 and 2 to Gourdeau players while trying to use infinites to win tournies.

I don't think banning the infinite is a terrible idea, but realistically it's not going to change tournament results much. This character is cheap as hell even without it. And even though it's easy to execute, to time someone out you have to do it like 60 times in most cases. Most people are gonna drop that shit in a tournament setting even though it's like a 5 frame window.

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[Hecatom]

Actually scrubs will use infinites to win tournies, check yo self

This is the most stupid shit that i read today, great work man :thumbs up:

Do you even know what the fuck is an scrub? Or are you like 90% of the dumb posters here that use words without even knowing what they mean?

Actually scrubs will go 0 and 2 to Gourdeau players while trying to use infinites to win tournies.

I don't think banning the infinite is a terrible idea, but realistically it's not going to change tournament results much. This character is cheap as hell even without it. And even though it's easy to execute, to time someone out you have to do it like 60 times in most cases. Most people are gonna drop that shit in a tournament setting even though it's like a 5 frame window.

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Since when being a good character is being cheap?

People need to start thinking objectively before throwing shit like cheap, op, broken, is starting to get really annoying

[Sashi]

Whoa, calm down, bro.

[Tigre]

Guys, no need to insult anyone else. Stop it.

[Hecatom]

Whoa, calm down, bro.

I am calm bro.

Guys, no need to insult anyone else. Stop it.

Sorry man, but i call it from what it is.

[Tigre]

Sorry man, but i call it from what it is.

Cool, there's a thousand much better ways to communicate

This is the most stupid shit that i read today, great work man :thumbs up:

So once again- stop it.

[Loli-Zero]

Wat. Cheap is good. I want to play a cheap character. I'm saying wald is still good without the infinite, so I don't care wether or not it is banned.

Edit: And for the record madigawadesperate I apologize if my original comment seemed snarky, I was mostly just trying to make a Gourdeau joke. I think we should probably ban the infinite for good measure. I don't even go for it in offline sets because I'm assuming it won't be around too long.

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[Hecatom]

Is this the smash community?

Now we will ban anything before even knowing if is really dominant?

Do i need to remind you all the other games that have tournament play that have infinites on them?

Before start asking for bans shit needs to be proven broken, and by that i mean really broken not that baby shit that is so dominat here on dl those last years, i am talking about something that becomes so dominant that every match devolves into only that.

[madigawadesperate]

Is this the smash community?

Now we will ban anything before even knowing if is really dominant?

Do i need to remind you all the other games that have tournament play that have infinites on them?

Before start asking for bans shit needs to be proven broken, and by that i mean really broken not that baby shit that is so dominat here on dl those last years, i am talking about something that becomes so dominant that every match devolves into only that.

 

Go have fun and post your opinion http://www.dustloop.com/forums/index.php?/topic/8986-waldstein-infinite-discussion-tournament-legality/

[Loli-Zero]

There's a whole thread for discussing the infinite, so let's try and talk about other wald topics here.

What do you think are waldstein's worse matchups? I feel like he has a slightly bad matchup against Gourdeau (duh) and probably Vatista. But other then that most of the time the game feels like it's in my favor as wald.

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[Tigre]

Yea... nothing is banned right now. We're discussing if this is an issue. If you would like to be included in said discussion I encourage you to post your opinion in the thread, pro or con taking action against this so that we can have a healthy discussion.

Leave this thread for discussing wald. I made that thread so this wouldn't take the Wald thread away from gameplay.

[zankoku]

Gordeau feels like a different flavor of difficult but close matchup as Merkava.

Haven't played against Vatista yet but it looks like most people agree that she's Wald's worst matchup.

[TagAnarchy]

Oh my god, no. I can't play Akatsuki against him now, since everyone will learn this until it (maybe) gets patched out. Now I have to sub someone specifically for Waldstein just to avoid this happening.

[the_d3v]

Actually scrubs will use infinites to win tournies, check yo self

Someone has the wrong understanding of the word "scrub".

 

Looks like it's time to quote Sirlin once again.

 

http://www.sirlin.net/ptw-book/intermediates-guide.html

 

 

The derogatory term “scrub” means several different things. One definition is someone (especially a game player) who is not good at something (especially a game). By this definition, we all start out as scrubs, and there is certainly no shame in that. I mean the term differently, though. A scrub is a player who is handicapped by self-imposed rules that the game knows nothing about. A scrub does not play to win.

 

The good players are reaching higher and higher levels of play. They found the “cheap stuff” and abused it. They know how to stop the cheap stuff. They know how to stop the other guy from stopping it so they can keep doing it. And as is quite common in competitive games, many new tactics will later be discovered that make the original cheap tactic look wholesome and fair. Often in fighting games, one character will have something so good it’s unfair. Fine, let him have that. As time goes on, it will be discovered that other characters have even more powerful and unfair tactics. Each player will attempt to steer the game in the direction of his own advantages, much how grandmaster chess players attempt to steer opponents into situations in which their opponents are weak.

The first step in becoming a top player is the realization that playing to win means doing whatever most increases your chances of winning. That is true by definition of playing to win. The game knows no rules of “honor” or of “cheapness.” The game only knows winning and losing.

[Tigre]

Guys. I know there's a heated topic concerning Wald right now, but like I said before- keep this thread to gameplay.

What Sirlin has to say about scrubs is cool and all but not really needed here.

[Deezxnutz]

Completely forgot about the crossup protection. That said, playing with it some more, there's a huge gap that they can just walk it.

The crappy little document I've been working on https://docs.google.com/document/d/1ZJC7XzNXCjWW5uTUv9hF6k_SCcxXMXLLQWNilfQYM5I/edit?usp=sharing. Might be useful for some of you, its basically just a compilation of this thread; the layout sucks and it needs a lot of work but hopefully its some use to a few of you?

I read the document and I came across this notation called "Du", what does it mean?