[UNIEL] Carmine

[Tigre]

Introduction

Welcome to the Carmine thread! Please discuss character strategy, combos, match-ups, and other relevant topics here. Please also feel free to post up any questions you may have about the character as well.

Pre-Match Character Description:

He craves. His crimson body is endlessly bloodthirsty.
No pleasure overcomes violence. So he shows off.
The fans and claws reside in his body. Penetrates his enemy with everything he has.
Unstoppable thirst for the blood. Tonight, he seeks for a sacrifice.

Carmine Wiki Page

Notable Players

Notes
King Crimson
SAT
Yuuneko
Adder
Nedi

[HDKirin]

Pre-Match Character Description:

 

He craves. His crimson body is endlessly bloodthirsty.

No pleasure overcomes violence. So he shows off.

The fans and claws reside in his body. Penetrates his enemy with everything he has.

Unstoppable thirst for the blood. Tonight, he seeks for a sacrifice.

 

[Solless]

Question: What is carmine's reversal?

[thiz]

He has no safe meterless reversal if thats what you mean. Thats why hes considered high risk, high reward.

[stickystaines]

I find Carmine pretty interesting, but the only thing that puts me off is how much health you lose just to play your game. I watch Notes play and he can lose about 1/3 of his life just from self inflicted damage and doesn't really get chance to gain it back. Brings his effective life down quite a bit, since you can easily lose 1/4 or 1/5 before the opponent hits you, then they have to do one less combo to kill you. I do play ABA so im not unfamiliar with the concept, but i just wish it wasn't so significant or there were more ways you could gain life back.

[SoWL]

How much health does he recover with his throws, by the way? Since blocking is so powerful in this game, it feels that he should use them relatively often (especially combined with his projectile pressure).

[Solless]

He has no safe meterless reversal if thats what you mean. Thats why hes considered high risk, high reward.

So what is the meter reversal?

[SoWL]

Other than the universal mechanics, I think the EX swipe got some invulnerability on it. I also see him using the EX grab as a reversal here and there, too.

[Magaki]

Based on everything I've seen and concluded so far:
Carmine has no reversal meterless and the ones with meter suck. The ones that require meter are:
-214EX (he jumps and throw crystals on the ground): Most used reversal. Invul end way before the active frame though so you can get hit out of it. Its vertical hitbox isn't as big as it looks like too. You can however combo after it it seems.
-63214EX (grabs): Other reversal. I thought it first was a command grab but I saw that you can use it in a combo too (during a 'spin around' to be more specific) so it might be an unblockable ? Or have the same property as Eltnum's air throw ? Gotta get the game to understand that. Life drained isn't that great though.

Life drain from throws is meh too.

Moves that uses up his health are 6B and Spin Around (the blood saw). His 2 main zoning tool. Spin around gets you a combo and is easy to hitconfirm in neutral. SAT showed that tk Spin Around is a really strong tool and quite hard to punish for the opponent. He at least doesn't get punished as badly as Notsu who loves 6B in neutral a bit too much.
So yeah, you will only risk your health in neutral for zoning.

When pressuring, it's really rewarding though because both will allow you to reset pressure really easily. Seems that you can get mashed out of Spin Around but not out of 6B so that's a great way to keep going for long blockstrings. Spin Around is even more rewarding because its nice chip damage will allow to make the health difference caused by the health you used much thinner and it leads to 5K combos meterless as a starter which is one of the reason why your opponent should respect Carmine quite a lot.
On block, you can go for:
jump>j[C]
jump>j[C](1)>2B
jump>fake charged jC>2B
jump>fake charged jC>throw
If you don't go for the throw, you can keep your pressure going and reset it with either 6B or Spin Around once more for extended pressure/hard to react to mixups. So yeah, if you don't like using your health, don't zone at all in neutral. In offense though it leads to godlike rewards and nice mixups.

[Dusk Thanatos]

-63214EX (grabs): Other reversal. I thought it first was a command grab but I saw that you can use it in a combo too (during a 'spin around' to be more specific) so it might be an unblockable ? Or have the same property as Eltnum's air throw ? Gotta get the game to understand that.

Probably works most all like Melty airthrow/command grabs: usable as combo fodder. Most command grabs in Melty function sort of like Tager's atomic collider in that regard -- for example, Sacchin's EX air grab is a great combo tool, C-Akiha uses 63214A as a combo ender, and almost every character's generic air bnb ends with AT.

[Magaki]

Yeah. I use it a lot to end Nero's air combos in MB.

Anyway, if it works on airborne opponents, it would become a relatively decent defensive tool. That was mostly what I was thinking when I posted about it as defense is probably what Carmine players will have to work the most with.

But then again, shield to get Vorpal and then guard thrust isn't that bad as long it's not abused.

[iora]

hello. gonna play this guy. nice to say hi to you all on the internet.

 

if i find neat things, ill let you know.

[jimmy]

Probably works most all like Melty airthrow/command grabs: usable as combo fodder. Most command grabs in Melty function sort of like Tager's atomic collider in that regard -- for example, Sacchin's EX air grab is a great combo tool, C-Akiha uses 63214A as a combo ender, and almost every character's generic air bnb ends with AT.

I haven't seen a lot of Carmine's using his command grab in this way, I've really only noticed it being used out of or during pressure. Possible that I'm just not paying enough attention though

[Giggles454]

-63214EX (grabs): Other reversal. I thought it first was a command grab but I saw that you can use it in a combo too (during a 'spin around' to be more specific) so it might be an unblockable ? Or have the same property as Eltnum's air throw ? Gotta get the game to understand that. Life drained isn't that great though.

Carmine's Command Grab doesn't work like a melty blood airgrab, it's just a normal command grab super. The "combo" you would've seen is actually an unblockable setup whereby Carmine cancels 236A/B into the command grab before the 236A/B hits. If they block they get grabbed, if they jump, they get hit by the wheel.

[Magaki]

You actually can use it in a combo.
Works on both airborne and standing opponent but the damage obviously suck.
Game consider to be a ground command grab however if the opponent isn't in hitstun. I'll also try to find the video I saw before but I'm certain that it was indeed in a combo.

[iora]

anyone else having issues with pressure? im not used to reverse beat, even in melty i was full moon. i feel like im just not used to it and i get mashed out a lot

 

just something to come with practice? or are you guys having success without making use of "reverse beat"-ing your normals?

 

also, can you combo into 236x without a blood puddle and 2c to knock em down?

 

 

 

gotta write some combo theory notes and try to grind this out, gonna be so hard ~_~

[LitchiFayeBling]

i think you can combo into 236C (ex) from 2c without puddle beforehand

and in corner you can do 236a from 2c without puddle i think  nope

 

basic combo routes midscreen are

(hitconfirm) 2c 6b 2c 236a -> either side switch with dash under, jABC 3b 2c (or other enders. since 236a left a puddle, you can 3b 623a, then 66c for knockdown)

or, jump charge C, otg with 2b. long starter means you can 2b -> jABC 3b 2c, "A" starter means you just 2b 2c probably.

 

the other combo route is (hitconfirm) 2c jump 6b, jump CBA 3b. 

 

haven't looked into 6[c] (overhead) stuff

 

corner route is either go into 2c 236a (usually A starter) or other starters you can go into 22B, juggle link 5b

 

http://in-birth.wikia.com/wiki/Carmine_(Gameplay) 

the combos at the bottom of this page seem like they come from this vid but i didn't scrutinize that hard

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N-ixpyawNbg

 

 

i'm finding that i can't "delay chain" normals, so my basic frame trap muscle memory from other games with chained normals isn't working out, heh

canceling things into 6b seems pretty okay specially a little further out, seems safe if not +, can do 2c afterwards and it seems like it CHs some things. also if there is a puddle under them, and you read a mash, 623a is a good move to CH because i think it activates the puddle hitbox the quickest. has a lot of untech time.

 

canceling into 6[c] (overhead) and 214[a] if they're scared to mash is the end goal

 

otherwise cancel into 236a chain shift if you're in vorpal lol. gain lots of meter, have ton of frame advantage to either 6[c] or 214[a] to go for more frame traps

[NewFace]

i think you can combo into 236C (ex) from 2c without puddle beforehand

and in corner you can do 236a from 2c without puddle i think

 

basic combo routes midscreen are

(hitconfirm) 2c 6b 2c 236a -> either side switch with dash under, jABC 3b 2c (or other enders. since 236a left a puddle, you can 3b 623a, then 66c for knockdown)

or, jump charge C, otg with 2b. long starter means you can 2b -> jABC 3b 2c, "A" starter means you just 2b 2c probably.

 

You can't combo 236a in the corner without puddle, note EX spin doesn't combo of point blank 2C but works otherwise. You can actually still combo into 2B>j.A>j.B>j.C>3B>2C even of 2A starter, the timing is just a little tighter. But yeah you basically summed up everything else. 

[LitchiFayeBling]

hm okay. i always had problems doing 3b after jC off of 2a starter.

[Necro Undine]

So how do you guys tackle neutral game with Carmine?

[Magaki]

6B is safe on block but not +. Considering we want our pressure to be as hard to deal with as possible, I would strongly suggest you to not use it at all at close range otherwise the opponent can easily get away by mashing/backdashing.
Carmine doesn't seem to have any normal that is + on block ( at close range at least) so we have to use frame traps against people who doesn't respect his pressure.
At close range, the frame traps we have are 5A/2A>5C or 5A/2A>6C (don't charge it). There is also 623A but if we do get a CH, we won't be able to combo without a puddle and if the opponent blocks it, we lose the puddle so I wouldn't recommend it.
6B can be a frame trap with the proper spacing. Will combo into 2C>236A afterwards. If you're too far, it won't combo though.
Another thing you can use against mashers is a nicely spaced 236A. They can hit you out of it though but they will have to use moves that are particularly slow and thus not suited for defense. Merkava's 2C for example. It's particularly effective against opponents who rely loves mashing moves with fast startup with standard range for what they do. Every 5A and 2A for example.

In order to get the necessary spacing to reset with 236A, you can use 5C,2C,6C and mostly 3C and special cancel them. 3C and 6C's pushbacks in particular are quite interesting but you might want to save up 6C in your blockstrings for frame traps and 2C for hitconfirms.
236A is also really good at catching backdashes so don't hesitate using it against opponents who loves to mash those.

As for neutral:
If we observe top jap players, we pretty much got the Notsu way and the SAT way. Notsu rely on 6B, dashes and 5B footsies in neutral while SAT prefer to be more defensive and uses a lot of tk 236A. I noticed that (for day one matches obviously), Notsu's neutral is just amazing for zoners while SAT's is much better for rushdown characters (So far, only Gordeau is giving me troubles with SAT's so it's really efficient.)

I would suggest you to watch some of their videos and copy them. Will buy you a lot of time for learning matchups.

 

[Dusk Thanatos]

Frame advantage on just 6B doesn't matter by itself, necessarily -- in a game with reverse beat, frame advantage on a normal cancelled into a whiff 5a/2a matters just as much.

[iora]

6b is that projectile though, can you chain a 2a after it to recover faster? i dont remember ever doing that....

[jimmy]

6b is that projectile though, can you chain a 2a after it to recover faster? i dont remember ever doing that....

99% sure you cannot, lol

I think 6B is a good pressure tool regardless though because you always have option to activate the puddle afterwards

[LitchiFayeBling]

i think this char is around mid tier overall (not unplayable, but not overly strong) and i quit. rip

 

his overhead (charge 6c) doesn't block string into special moves (and is only cancelable into special moves) and i think ex grim reaper from gordeau punishes not canceling and canceling if he blocks it

 

the mixups are alright, mostly tricks and i think they can be timing blocked

 

he does have a lot of potential overall, but has to play patiently and very precisely and the skill needed for that is realistically beyond my reach.

 

i think he needs a meterless version of that command grab. as of right now his lockdown isn't scary enough because his mixups are quite limited. he also lacks a reversal. that plus how the GRD system works really makes him work for momentum, since his main offense is frame traps and blocking them all is advantageous GRD wise to the defender. raw chain shift to reversal is amazing vs carmine, and then he only has veil off (and his 200 meter supers) as real reversals.

 

if you are playing vs people who mash, this character can work. vs people with good blocks and punish sense, i don't think he is a good choice.

overall im a scrub but a realistic scrub, gonna try other characters.