[UNIEL] Carmine

[Magaki]

You're overestimating the defense in this game. Why do you think Notsu uses so many assault during his pressure ? That's precisely to punish opponents trying to shield and that's the reason why you don't see so many people using shields against Notsu. They probably played him countless times and know that it's not worth the risk at all especially if you consider Carmine's rewards.

After playing something like 200 matches a bit online and mostly offline, I would say that what Carmine needs isn't something to improve his mixup but rather a way to safely uses 236A in blockstrings. If you consider that the only guaranteed way you have to throw it out and make sure your opponent block it is during okizeme simply because 236A is vital for his pressure.

It should also be mentionned that his throw game is actually here to deal with particularly patient opponents. His 236B for example whiffs on everyone crouching and the only way to react to that would be to look at the projectile itself when it's going from the shuriken thingy to the wheel which makes it already too late to tech it.

Sadly, another problem with him is that he indeed got a lot of potential but he doesn't have that many options that cover more than one defensive options the opponent might try out which means that like the top japanese Carmines, you will have to spend countless hours honing your pressure in order to vary it as much as possible.

However, if you were looking for a character with simpler yet much better mixups, yeah I guess you picked the wrong guy. Carmine's mixups will never be as good as Gordeau's or as scary as Waldstein.

Despite his many weaknesses and the work he requires before being worth the effort however, he got a lot of potential like you pointed out. I'm certain that competitive players will just go for a much more rewarding and efficient character or simply wait for a next version of UNiEL where he will be buffed.

And yeah, 6B is a command normal. You can't gatling or cancel anything after it on block. That's why the fact that it might have been + on block would have been amazing because it means you could reset pressure with a puddle right below your opponent. Sadly, you can't so it's back to neutral.
If your opponent respect you though or you got the right spacing, don't hesitate twice before doing 2C>236A. If it doesn't hit, you can still keep pressuring.

[LitchiFayeBling]

he does have some tricks he can use

 

[normal] xx 236B xx ex command grab. if they jump they block/get hit by 236B, otherwise they get grabbed.

[normal] xx 236A chain shift - you have a million years to do a mixup

 

finally i think his force function (B+C) doesn't take life. it also leaves a puddle if there wasn't one on the ground yet. even though it costs GRD (unless you have no GRD) it might be worth looking into. It is an especially important move to use in conjunction with 214[A] since it also moves the negative edge puddle.

[Magaki]

Also found that charged jC got some rather interesting properties (either a higher attack level or increased pushback) for pressure. With the right spacing, you can do a normal jump (9 to be accurate) and start charging jC. If it's partially charged, you will land behind the opponent. If it's fully charged, you will land before him.

Basically, it looks like it's actually because the opponent is pushed back further with j[C] than with jC making it really hard for the opponent to get where you will land. Actual mixup will be jC/j[C]>2B. Considering you landed, the crossup protection won't work anymore. Obviously, it will mostly be used during a blocked 236A and the jC/j[C] must be blocked at the end of 236A to make the crossup actually matter.

Not sure how practical that would be in a tournament though.

[LitchiFayeBling]

one thing about that jC is that normally charged jC is easy to time, but you need to delay it to hit linne -_____- and i don't know that timing

[Necro Undine]

I don't know if you guys are still having trouble with getting the 3C>2C oki where timing is harder, but I found a way to make it easier. After a 2B pick up into the jABC sequence, you can just delay the jA. You still immediately jump cancel the 2B but just delay the timing in which you jA. If you do that, after the jC you'll be way closer to the ground giving you the ability to connect 3C faster than usual. Hope this helps you guys out if needed.

[Kirnupiima]

Can you really after 236A do a fully charged j.C  and pick it up with 2B midscreen? Tried that so many times and not a single time got it timed right  

 

Either the j.C whiffs (too late) or the dummy gets pushed too far away from your landing spot.

[Magaki]

It sounded weird when I first tried it too but j[C]'s hitstun last for a very long time. Most of the time, you will need to do dash 2B to pick the opponent up. I prefer to do dash 1B in order to avoid doing dash B instead.

But yeah, there is no trick behind it honestly. Just keep grinding it until you can pull it off.

[Kirnupiima]

Thanks, hadn't thought of that! The run startup takes some getting used to. Will grind it out.

[Needles09]

Can you really after 236A do a fully charged j.C  and pick it up with 2B midscreen? Tried that so many times and not a single time got it timed right

 

Either the j.C whiffs (too late) or the dummy gets pushed too far away from your landing spot.

While the 236A is hitting, I dash up then do charge jC, it's weird timing but it means you don't have to dash as much for the 2B pick up. 

[Magaki]

Spin around hit Linne twice when she's in the air. You won't have the time to do dash j[C] on her. That's why in order to make it universal, I just walk a bit then do the j[C].

[Grim-reaper]

Too bad this character needs way too much work for a game i don't have too much people to play with. Gonna stick with gordeau and waldstein for now.

[Magaki]

I tested some of the stuff Notsu does in blockstrings and saw the opponents respecting. He uses 623A/B quite a lot in blockstrings but with or without a puddle, it doesn't seem like it's + on block. Might be 0 or -1. I tested it with a friend and with the 2 Carmines mashing 5A.

22A however is + on block so that's good news. Startup seems a bit long but recovery looks short. 22B however have definetely a longer recovery and it was kind of the same as 623A/B. Safe on block but either 0 or less.

So, doing blockstring>22A>5A can be an okay way to reset pressure I guess if the opponent have enough respect/doesn't have a reversal.

[LitchiFayeBling]

thanks for the data. i've seen notsu do pretty far range 22B frame trap into 623A or b, assuming b for the faster startup.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xes6nPHzMfw#t=639

 

wonder what the gap is for normals canceled into 22a. i have seen charged 6c xx 22a get reversaled out (ex reaper/ex noodles in particular)

[Magaki]

Got 2 bad news and 1 good one.


Bad news:
-After testing it even more, it seems that 22A actually feels like a +1. Or a +2 at best. Nothing really fancy sadly but even the tiniest advantage counts I guess.

-Back tech after a 2C knockdown completely screws 236A oki and 214[A] oki midscreen. Seems that you can however deal with back and neutral tech quite easily midscreen with 22C>214[A]>214>Concentration.
Basically, after a 22C, run towards the opponent so that you are exactly on him and do a 214[A]. Walk backward slightly and do 214. Then you can use concentration. If you do this, if the opponent does a back tech, he will be in range for 214[A] trap. With neutral tech, he's in 214's range.

Good news:
-I decided to test what FayeBling suggested and actually, it seems that 5C/2C/3C/6C>22A is a actually a frame trap. Was tested with the same condition as before. I also tested it with Linne's 5A and 2A (which is IIRC the fastest in the game. Not sure.)
It's particularly useful to end your pressure if you already used 5A and 2A during your blockstring or make 6[C] hitconfirm easier and safer (in the corner only).

Other stuff to note:
-His throw makes it only possible to neutral tech so doing throw>214[A] as oki is a guaranteed oki wherever you are.
-Command grab super can be back teched. Also, you're in throw range so be careful with that. Throwing out 236A as oki right after that is guaranteed however, whether the opponent neutral or back tech.
-Tried to do 5A8AAAA... on block to see if I could get interesting options out of it. Sadly, even though I tried my best to delay it as much as possible, I can't manage to get a frame trap out of it so I guess it can only be useful for spacing purpose.

[Magaki]

I tested this time Notsu's "infinite blockstring" that he used quite often in matches. Basically, it's 214[A]>]A[>236A>214[A]>]A[>236A etc
Obviously, you have to release A right after setting 214[A] to make it work.

Well, it technically looks like it's a pseudo-infinite. There is a noticeable gap between the 214[A] and the ]A[ that you can get mashed out of. The interesting part though is that it seems that the 214A/B series got a cool property. If you get hit without releasing the button, the trap disappear. However, if you get hit AFTER you released it, it doesn't disappear and comes out.

This basically means that if you get mashed out of it or the opponent use a reversal, he will still get hit and you will be able to followup the combo if you're still on your feet or at least get oki if the hitstun was too big for that.

Only way it seems to deal with it is probably with a command grab reversal. But aside from Wald's, I don't see any that would give troubles with the proper spacing. In fact I always make sure that I hit with the tip of 214[A]'s hitbox so that a lot of stuff will whiff.

If the opponent mashed, he will get hit by ]A[ which is really easy to hitconfirm.

Obviously, the key with the pseudo-infinite is to switch between doing it and attempting to mixup in order to punish shield attempts so throwing it out everytime won't make you win matches unless your opponents never adapt.

[Grim-reaper]

hey guys i can't seem to hit my charged 6C at the end of the bnb after enhanced DP. Is it really that tight or am i messing on something ?

[Magaki]

Are you referring to charged 6C or dash C ? Charged 6C is the overhead. Dash C is a normal that looks the same but gives you oki instead.

[Grim-reaper]

Are you referring to charged 6C or dash C ? Charged 6C is the overhead. Dash C is a normal that looks the same but gives you oki instead.

i feel silly ...

[someonewhodied]

Midscreen Combo Route:

 

5B>5C>2C>j.6B>662C>236A>66j.B>j.[C]>66236A Oki

 

Fairly simple

[Necro Undine]

Midscreen Combo Route:

 

5B>5C>2C>j.6B>662C>236A>66j.B>j.[C]>66236A Oki

 

Fairly simple

 

That route seems unstable, and they're are already better midscreen options for Carmine i'd say.

 

If you want a j6B route i'd do this:

5B > 5C > 2C > j6B | > jC > jB > jA | > 3C > 2C > 623B >...

....66C > 236A or 214[A]

....2C > 236A or 214[A]

 

And a route with more corner carry would be:

5B > 5C > 2C > 6B > 2C > 236A > j[C] | > 662B > jA > jB > jC | > 3C > 2C > 236A or 214[A]

[Zerotoad5]

Just picked up the game this char look cool. Where are you getting combos from and what would you say is important to learn with him.

[LitchiFayeBling]

5B 5C 2C 6B 2C xx 236A > j[C] land dash 2B xx jump, slight delay, jABC 3B 2C, oki

most important midscreen combo. works off of A if you do 2A/5A 5B 2C 6B . it's the one necro undine posted up there

 

side switch version that's kinda hard. i havent hit this in a match yet lol

5B 5C 2C 6B 2C xx 236A , dash under jABC land 3B 623B, dashC > oki

 

most important midscreen combo. works off of A if you do 2A/5A 5B 2C 6B . it's the one necro undine posted up there

 

air to air starter

jABC 2C 6B 2C xx 236A > j[C] land dashC, oki

for some reason i couldn't get the full extension as above but i'll try again today

 

corner easy bnb - can do off A starters

(5a/2a) 5B 5C 2C 6B 2C xx 236A > (wait, find correct spacing) > j[C] xx 236B, dashC, oki

 

corner bnb off high low mixup

(2B 2C 3C) or (6[C]) xx 22A or B, 5B 623B, walk back instant j6B, 66C xx 236A (wait, find correct spacing) j[C] xx 236B, dashC, oki

also works generally if they wake up into a wheel mashing

 

short starter (anything starting with assault that isn't counter hit) - 6DC 5A 5B 5C 2C 3B xx jump, slight delay, jABC 2C

basic converts off of 214[A]/ will just be a jump loop into 3B xx jump, slight delay jBC 2C. you can do more with puddles, but i am not there yet

 

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general combo mechanics in this game seem to be 2 OTGs max. this means (puddle) 2C 236A, and any otg after dashC and j[C].

also one jump cancel per combo.

 

i need to see if there are better things to do after air to air j[C]. i just dash 2B jABC 3B 2C but i have an extra otg to use

 

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important things to learn for this char

dash and block

 

delay chain off 5B into 5C/2C and confirm off of it (braindead mode = 6B, better pressure mode 5C and confirm and then mix up more frame traps with 6C/3C/22B/22C/whiff2A/5A

 

throw/6DC mixup

 

oki setups . right now mine are quite weak

[Kane-Z]

Just picked up the game this char look cool. Where are you getting combos from and what would you say is important to learn with him.

Transcript

http://in-birth.wikia.com/wiki/Carmine_(Gameplay)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N-ixpyawNbg

For visual reference.

[Magaki]

Various things I would like to point out:

-I actually did a huge mistake. It seems that you can indeed back tech against normal throw midscreen.

-214A/B after a 22C, throw or reversal throw after all isn't that bad midscreen. Simply because you can react to the back tech and do B+C. Seems that B+C cover the same space a back tech does so this is quite convenient.

- The j[C]>2B>2C route in the combo:

5A>5B>2C>6B>2C>236A>Charged j.C>2B>2C>623A>66C

​Doesn't work on: Chaos, Orie, Vatista and Gordeau. 2C whiffs even in the corner.
 

[Grim-reaper]

can someone share with me some damaging combos that don't include " release " to keep the hitstun going ?

I play on pad and the only instance i could use the release is to start a combo with it. So no long combos for me while holding the release.