[UNIEL] Carmine

[LitchiFayeBling]

read my post. no 214[a] combos. 

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5jnqeeVcJLE

anyone know how long you can delay this 5a upback 5a thing

[Magaki]

I already found this a while ago and pointed it out in the news & gameplay section and posted a comment here about what we could do with it.

 

-Tried to do 5A8AAAA... on block to see if I could get interesting options out of it. Sadly, even though I tried my best to delay it as much as possible, I can't manage to get a frame trap out of it so I guess it can only be useful for spacing purpose.

If you get a hit, you will jump meaning it's the end of your pressure. You can't get a frame trap with it either. So its only use is for spacing purpose in certain matchups against opponent who can't poke you out of a 236A in blockstrings because you're too far.

[LitchiFayeBling]

ah that was before i knew what that was. i understand. yeah it doesn't seem too useful. most of the frame traps are going to be from 5b delay chain.

if they hesitate, cancel to 214[a] or 236a or i guess b?? 

if they mashin, 2c or 5c

 

fun thing to do is 5b 5aa which will get another 5b on block. this move him forward the most. woop.

 

learned simple veil off combos. can't wait to try them out in a match. still need 200 meter for all of them, the ones that don't need 200 meter are way beyond my understanding. the spacing for veil off not to hit during spin messes me up

[Magaki]

Yeah. Our pressure pre-blood (that's how I call it when we didn't force the opponent to block a 214[A] or a 236A yet) basically relies on either frame traps or doing using 214[A] and 236A in pressure. After many matches, I would say that 214[A] is much harder to react to. Going for 214[A]>]A[>236A right away is a really safe choice and gives nice rewards if the opponent mashed after 214[A].

Didn't think however of using 5B>5AA to extend my blockstrings. Opponents will obviously be more willing to mash against long blockstrings than short ones after all. Definetely have to add that in my game !

[Grim-reaper]

The most damaging combo i have is in the corner starting with 200 meter : 2b>2c>6b 2c>236a walk back a little neutral jump j.[C] land 2b>2c>22a>236c>CS veil off 214C land 263b>IW for something like 5600 dmg.

Plus it looks hella stylish !

[Villainous]

Not sure if this has been mentioned but figured I would point it out since its pretty cool. If you do his 214[A]/ and then hold the button, you can release it whenever you want. Here's where it gets cool though. You can use your B+C (MACARENA!) to move the puddle that the charged 214A is attached to and you can release it at the new location whenever you want. 

So, if you're ever having trouble getting in and they just won't do anything, you can punish people being passive with this, since you essentially can force them to block whenever you want at full screen with this tech. 

Also defensively, the charged 214A's can be set along with your blood wheels. So you can use the wheel to cover you setting up the 214A if you want to. Probably has some applications on offense too. 

Edit: Also forgot to mention, if you have a charged 214A out you can do B+C in combos and then release to keep things going, The B+C combos into the release. 

Cool application: with charged 214A at their feet at full screen: 6B 6B+C release 214A 6B 22A.... about 3K from full screen. You can also do 22C at the end if you want more damage / setup. 

Alternatively, 6B 6B+C 22C works whenever without a setup lol

edit edit: 6B 623A 6B 41236D full screen 200% confirm >_<

[Magaki]

Was already mentioned before and the blockstun isn't big enough to allow you to get in from fullscreen.
If your opponent also was indeed far away, your 214[A]>B+C would whiff and the move actually got quite the noticeable recovery and animation making it really easy to guess what you're doing and being predictable in neutral is a really bad idea for Carmine.

214[A] was also mentioned before as being part of the infinite blockstring.

While I can understand that it might be a pain to read everything from the beginning, a lot of informations explained here will buy you a lot of time so I would suggest you to read the whole thread. Especially when it's, sadly, the least active character section. But then again, we don't have any troublemakers and interesting ideas are being shared so I'm quite satisfied.

Anyway guys, got some good news:
I asked a friend if he could use his video capture card to get us more frame datas.

-6[C] is actually (like a lot of overheads it seems) 28f startup. Which is, obviously, a lot. Here's the important part though. The ball indicating the move is charging only comes out at the 14th frame which explains why the move appear so slow but is quite hard to react to. Doesn't mean you have to abuse it though.

-22A is actually +1 on block. Yeah, it's not as amazing as Gordeau's 22A who is +7 it seems but +1 isn't that bad consdering that all our normals are special cancelable on block and the C normals will all lead to frame traps with 22A.

[Kane-Z]

learned simple veil off combos. can't wait to try them out in a match. still need 200 meter for all of them, the ones that don't need 200 meter are way beyond my understanding. the spacing for veil off not to hit during spin messes me up

A good mid screen 100 VO combo I been using is this:

5B > 2C > J6B > 2C > 236A > CS > VO(Whiff) > 214C > 623B > 5B > j.A > j.B > j.C > 3B > 6C > 41236D

If you don't feel confident in landing this online you can also simplify and skip the 5B > air combo part and go straight to 41236D from 623B for around 100 less.

Also, a good corner carry combo i noticed Note sometimes go for is:

5B > 2C > 6B > 2C > 236A > 66C > 214+[A] > 5B > release A > J.[C] > j.B > 2C > Ender

Magaki, Is it fine to end blockstrings with 214+[A] to initiate the wheel pressure or should I stick with 22A just to be safe? After a few days in the lab, I jumped online for the first time yesterday and I had the worst time against characters like Linne and Seth with strong up close pressure. What do you think it should be the general strategy against those characters? Should we zone and usually stay around the max range of pokes such as 5B, 5C, and 2C?

What are some good frame traps / blockstrings we should definitively keep in mind (besides 236+A > 214+[A] > release A or 22A > 623+B) Basically, what is the best wait to initiate our blood pressure?

Thanks.

[LitchiFayeBling]

ugh i need frame data

[klaww]

5B 5C 2C 6B 2C xx 236A > j[C] land dash 2B xx jump, slight delay, jABC 3B 2C, oki

most important midscreen combo. works off of A if you do 2A/5A 5B 2C 6B . it's the one necro undine posted up there

 

Ugh, feel like such scrub

But is there something special I need to be doing to connect the 2C into the 236A? I can't seem to get it.

EDIT: and the second 2C for that matter, it only seems to connect occasionally.

[someonewhodied]

5B>2C>214[A]~>5B>j.B+]A[>j.236A>land>j.[C]>2C>623B>623B>623C

 

3K-ish and looks stylish as fuck. Corner only.

 

 

Sideswap:

5B>2C>214~>236C>Dashunder+]B[>j.[C]>662C>623B

 

 

Corner Oki Setup: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ad1SotO4apU (Set up combo)

5B>2C>214[A]>665B~]A[>7j.[C]>j.6B>623B>66C>214~(whiff)>236A

 

j.A IoH (Wheel Oki):

(236A)....>j.A+]B[>]236A Hits[>j.[C]>214[A]~>5B+]A[>j.[C]>66C>214~(whiff)>236A

 

j.A IoH (Wheel Blocked)

]B[~j.A>j.[C]>214[A]~>5B~]A[>j.[C]>66C>214~(whiff)>236A

 

2B Low (Wheel Oki)

(236A)....>2C+]236A Hits[>]B[>66C>214[A]~>5B~]A[>j.[C]>66C>214~(whiff)>236A

 

I don't have one yet for low if wheel mixup is blocked. 

 

Lets you get wheel oki for mixup and you can release B at any time to reset a blockstring.

 

This setup lets you get up to 3 mixups safely on someone. One during wheel, one from releasing 214B, and one after if even that one is blocked.

[Magaki]

Ugh, feel like such scrub

But is there something special I need to be doing to connect the 2C into the 236A? I can't seem to get it.

EDIT: and the second 2C for that matter, it only seems to connect occasionally.

 I would really love to but I can't really give you any tips here to be honest. The second 2C is a link so there is nothing worth mentioning about it.

Maybe you're dropping the combo because you're too far ? The problem with that combo is that it doesn't work at max range (that's when you have to go for the 2C>6B>5BB route instead).

If it can also help you, you can try to do it in the corner because this combo pretty much works everywhere. True, it won't help you to figure out the spacing especially for dash 2B which is probably the most annoying part of the combo but at least you will get the timing for the 2nd 2C faster.

@Kane.

Yeah. Like Bling explained, our pressure pre-blood consist of either going for frame traps to deal with mashers or adding a 236A/214[A] in a blockstring if they respect us OR we got the right spacing. For example, getting the right spacing to force close range characters (Seth, Akatsuki etc) is quite easy. You will, however, NEVER be safe against Gordeau and Merkava. So, the way you plan to pressure depends heavily of the matchup and so does the risk you will take. You will have to learn the spacing per character by yourself and also what they can all do to stop you in training mode.

Speaking of frame traps, the way we handled frame traps heavily improved since the start of this thread. Situation was quite pitiful before because 5A/2A>XC was our only way to pull it off and 5A/2A's range usually only allowed us to do one frame trap per blockstring. And end it with 2A whiff cancel in order to be safe simply because 2A's was probably just meant for that. I don't get why its range would be so bad otherwise.

22A being a frame trap AND +1 at the same time radically improve our pre-blood pressure game as well as our hitconfirm. It's better suited in the corner though.

As for dealing with neutral with Carmine, like mentionned before, there is two way to deal with it. The Notsu way and the SAT way. Notsu consist of using 6B and 5B in neutral while SAT would rather focus on tk 236A. Like I explained, the Notsu way is pretty good for zoners and the SAT way is a better approach against rushdown characters. Obviously, you will want to use SAT's against Seth and Linne which not only effective but also really rewarding. Keep also in mind that you can cancel Seth's orb by touching it with any hitbox. A 2A on it is usually the best. You can go for throws too if you want. And don't forget, one of the reason Seth sucks so much is because delay tech really hurt his okizeme game. That's a tactic that a lot of great players used against Rion and it resulted in him being unable to keep his pressure going leading to a rather quick death.

A few things I would like to point out however:

-If you feel like zoning because you're dealing with a player who got an oustanding neutral (or just dealing with Merkava.) you will always want to at least have a puddle on the ground. Your best option for this is actually j6B. Its angle allow you to stop a lot of approaches and it helps a lot against anti-air/Grim Reaper happy players. Then, you can go for 236A/tk 236A. 236A with a puddle on the ground is really hard to deal with. If you're midrange, it's free blood pressure so make sure to rush and don't let him escape !

-The more I use it, the more I'm starting to feel like 2C is a really amazing poke. Its range is just outstanding and only a few characters seem to be able to deal with its speed and hitbox at the right range. Of course, you won't get a recovery as fast as 5B so it's up to you to decide whether you should take a risk and poke with 2C or rather be safe and go with 5B.

-Consider that 5BB and 3C doesn't exist in pressure at all. Unless you really want to take a huge risk. Those moves are only special cancelable on block. It means that you will obviously have a gap if you special cancel meaning it's an instant reversal in your face. Your best bet actually is to either use 22A and either block if they plan to reversal or press 5A to reset pressure. Anyway, you're taking unnecessary risks with those moves so it's better to only use them as combo fillers.

Hope that will help you anyway.

Also, do you guys have any idea about what we could do to transfer all the datas we found and shared somewhere ? I'm thinking about maybe making a pastebin or something like that that would be edited by the community but I don't a lot of experience with that sadly. I'm certain however that it will buy a lot of time for both newbies and veterans in the future.

[Magaki]

Didn't see sword's post so I'm making a double post for people who have already read what I mentionned before. Especially considering that it's quite important.

Anyway, you have to keep in mind that instant overheads doesn't exist in that game. When you jump, any move done during the rising part of the jump is automatically a mid even if its property make it an overhead as an air normal. It was something that we already knew way before the game was released on console in order to avoid stupid situations like in UNiB with Orie and Vatista's IOH.

If you're looking for mixup options with Carmine, you either have to go with assault jC or jump>j[C]>jB>jA. You can also omit the jA and go for 2B instead. This is a common mixup during blood pressure and definetely something I need to do more.

Interesting use of 214 though. Sounds really strong in the corner.
Here's another tech of mine I discovered lately. During the pseudo-infinite, instead of doing 214[A], do 214 then dash throw without releasing B. It's even better in the corner because if the opponent techs, you can release B and force him to block. Considering you already have a 214 set if it wasn't teched, you can either set 214[A] this time or use concentration to get more GRD.

Something else you can use after a 22C in the corner:
22C>dash 214[A]>214>Concentration>]A[>delay>]B[>starts pressuring.

Never saw Notsu do it before but basically, it consists of using the first ]A[ to force the opponent to block in order to allow you to use concentration much longer and ]B[ once you feel like he's no longer in blockstun to stop using concentration and keep your pressure going. 

[someonewhodied]

huh really? well shit. IoH setup is a complete failure. i can come up with something else then.

 

 

Overhead (Wheel)

(236A)...>6D~j.C>]B[>66C>214[A]~>5B>623B>5B~]A[>j.[C]>66C>214~(whiff)>236A

 

Overhead (wheel Blocked)

]B[>6D~j.C>5B>2C>236A>j.B>j.[C]>66C>214~(whiff)>236A

[someonewhodied]

Here is my oki in full. I'm such a fraud that I had to record each combo seperately and sloppily put this together.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wun3nOF8_70

 

it isn't shown due to my clipping together clips, but usually there will be a puddle underneath the opponent to make the wheel safe, ALMOST meatying.

[Kirnupiima]

Ugh, feel like such scrub

But is there something special I need to be doing to connect the 2C into the 236A? I can't seem to get it.

EDIT: and the second 2C for that matter, it only seems to connect occasionally.

There is no magic there. It's a special cancel so you have to have 236 input after 2C and press A when 2C hits. I think you can also just input 2C go 3 6 and A and it should work.

 

 

edit: as for the 2nd 2C, you have to to input the 2C right when he finishes the recovery animation of 6B

 

btw I still can't do the  [jC] followup 662B so you are not alone in yout scrubbiness :D

[pinglh]

I tested this time Notsu's "infinite blockstring" that he used quite often in matches. Basically, it's 214[A]>]A[>236A>214[A]>]A[>236A etc

Obviously, you have to release A right after setting 214[A] to make it work.

Well, it technically looks like it's a pseudo-infinite. There is a noticeable gap between the 214[A] and the ]A[ that you can get mashed out of. The interesting part though is that it seems that the 214A/B series got a cool property. If you get hit without releasing the button, the trap disappear. However, if you get hit AFTER you released it, it doesn't disappear and comes out.

This basically means that if you get mashed out of it or the opponent use a reversal, he will still get hit and you will be able to followup the combo if you're still on your feet or at least get oki if the hitstun was too big for that.

Only way it seems to deal with it is probably with a command grab reversal. But aside from Wald's, I don't see any that would give troubles with the proper spacing. In fact I always make sure that I hit with the tip of 214[A]'s hitbox so that a lot of stuff will whiff.

If the opponent mashed, he will get hit by ]A[ which is really easy to hitconfirm.

Obviously, the key with the pseudo-infinite is to switch between doing it and attempting to mixup in order to punish shield attempts so throwing it out everytime won't make you win matches unless your opponents never adapt.

 

thanks for posting I tested this time Notsu's "infinite blockstring" that he used quite often in matches. Basically, it's 214[A]>]A[>236A>214[A]>]A[>236A etc

I love carmine, after reading what you posted I am going to use this for my setup I am not sure if you would call this a frame trap but been working nice for pressure

 

2B>5C(delay wait)>5B>6C>2C or if you don't want to do the delay which I don't I add an extra 5C so double tap 5C two times

 

2B>5C5C>5B>6C>2C

 

you can mix it up at the end how you like I do 6B or 236A

 

then I rush in and do it all over again

[LitchiFayeBling]

i've seen notsu do a post 22c setup that looks like this

 

214[a] 214 , TK 236 a????? while still holding on to the a.

 

how does this work?

[Ryd']

TK 236A, or 236B?  If it's A, then he's breaking the game somehow.  If it's B, you should be able to do it by holding down C for the 214B (214~[C] ]B[); if I recall from dabbling with the character, B and C are interchangeable for the delayed release since 214C will call 214B if you don't have meter for the EX - both are treated as viable buttons to hold to delay the move.

[LitchiFayeBling]

that's sick, didn't know that. cool.

[worldjem7]

How much health does he recover with his throws, by the way? Since blocking is so powerful in this game, it feels that he should use them relatively often (especially combined with his projectile pressure).

Moves that cost health cost 300 (150 in vorpal state). His throw recovers 400 health and his command throw recovers 1200 health.

[jimmy]

-6[C] is actually (like a lot of overheads it seems) 28f startup. Which is, obviously, a lot. Here's the important part though. The ball indicating the move is charging only comes out at the 14th frame which explains why the move appear so slow but is quite hard to react to. Doesn't mean you have to abuse it though.

Haven't seen this mentioned yet and it's probably obvious to a lot of the players here, but 6C is also pretty strong because you can chain into 2B afterwards if you don't do the full overhead charge. (I believe it is possible to partially charge the move, it's just not a very long window; correct me if I'm wrong). Players with quick reaction times can react to the 6C startup with a standing block and then can get hit with the low. Found it's one of my more reliable ways to open up players who aren't getting hit by the assault jC/j[C] stuff.

 

Obviously this is way better when they have a wheel on them; the blockstun from the wheel makes it more difficult to react to blocking the 6C.

[Magaki]

@Pinglh

I honestly have troubles understanding what you mean with your post. Do your perhaps means that you reset your blockstring by letting 5C going through the whole recovery then doing 5C again to reset pressure ?

There is a noticeable gap your opponent can react to without even mashing because of 5C's huge recovery. I could understand if it was 5B which is a much better idea but why specifically 5C ? 
Unless you meant something else ?

@Ryd
Niiiiiiiiiiiiiice ! So that means that the best oki we can pull off consist of 2 Rip apart and 1 spin around. Sounds really cool and extremely strong in the corner.

@worldjem
I never noticed vorpal affected the health drained ! Can you, however, indicate your source ? I'm quite curious and I honestly wonder where you found data as accurate as that.

@Jimmy
I already knew that but I completely forgot to add it in my game. Definetely gonna try it out in matches !

So, like I said, I tried to add in my game what Bling suggested. Which is to use 5B>5AA. The options you have thanks to that are just amazing.
Not only does 5B>5AA allow an easy hitconfirm but you can do a lot of stuff from there. For example, here's a blockstring really useful in a lot of matchups because of the spacing it actually gives you in order to safely go for blood pressure:
(dash)5B>5AA>5C>6C>2C>2A whiff/236A/6B/22B in the corner

Doing 5B>5A in order to start your pressure can also be a pretty good idea. From there, you can frame traps with a C normal or dash throw for a tick throw. Really strong option to start pressure that I recommend in a lot of matchups.
 

[KoKoForLife]

Sorry to ask but does any one know a good anti air or anti air combos? I have been using 3c gets the job done most of the time but i'm looking for something better.

[someonewhodied]

I got the infinite blockstring down.

 

66C knockdown to end combo

 

214>236A>214[A]>]B[>tk.236B>214>]A[>236A>ect.....

 

 

With TK236B its a true infinite. Doesn't work on crouching opponents if you do standard 236B