[UNIEL] Carmine

[Magaki]

Sorry to ask but does any one know a good anti air or anti air combos? I have been using 3c gets the job done most of the time but i'm looking for something better.

3B and 5A are his main anti-airs. It heavily depends on if you have a puddle around or not though combo-wise. Anyway, every 3B starter in the wiki is an anti-air combo.

 

I got the infinite blockstring down.

 

66C knockdown to end combo

 

214>236A>214[A]>]B[>tk.236B>214>]A[>236A>ect.....

 

 

With TK236B its a true infinite. Doesn't work on crouching opponents if you do standard 236B

That's quite interesting but it actually isn't something that would benefit to Carmine. The main goal of the pseudo-infinite is to extend for a long time our blood pressure and it got in it a frame trap allowing to deal with mashy opponents for an easy hitconfirm. The problem with a true infinite blockstring is that the only thing it can allow us is to end up in a situation when both characters have 1 HP in the end. It doesn't allow us to open our opponent's guard up at all so in order to mixup, we will need to commit to it.

Anyway, I thought about using 214 with 214[A] for an even stronger pressure but didn't think of using tk 236B meanwhile. So, congrats man, you found something really cool. And thank you very much for sharing it here.

I just tried it out a bit today but so far I only see 2 weaknesses. First, it requires you to be really close to the opponent so every grab reversal can actually get you if there is even a tiny hole.

Second, it seems that there can be gaps because of how guard shield works.

I'll test it more tomorrow but despite how it doesn't seem as useful and safe as the pseudo-infinite, it's definetely an important tech that should be added in my game.

Also, 236B whiffing on crouch is one of Notsu's most common mixup. You basically do 236B if your opponent respects you (which honestly seems to happen a lot if you're a top player. Not surprising though.) then dash throw. If it gets teched, he has to block it. Otherwise, we go for blood oki.

[pinglh]

@Pinglh

I honestly have troubles understanding what you mean with your post. Do your perhaps means that you reset your blockstring by letting 5C going through the whole recovery then doing 5C again to reset pressure ?

 

 

this is the combo 2B>5C5C>5B>6C>2C>236A or 2B>5C(delay)>5B>6C>2C>236A I have been doing and so far no one has hit me out of 5C adding the 236A at the end not always safe gordeau is able to kick slide under the 236A, which only know from playing 100 matches so far so I would just end it with a 6B or mix it up with something else for the end.

[worldjem7]

@worldjem

I never noticed vorpal affected the health drained ! Can you, however, indicate your source ? I'm quite curious and I honestly wonder where you found data as accurate as that.

Just trying stuff out in Training mode and then one thing lead to another.

 

I noticed Carmine drains life when he uses some moves, then noticed that sometimes it doesn't drain as much and just tried things until I figured it out (at one point I thought it depended on your opponent's health lol).

 

For the values, Carmine has 10k health. I just did blood moves until he died and counted how many times it took to kill himself (he doesn't actually die).

 

It took 34 uses of blood moves to get him to 0 health and by the time I got to the last use, there was less health than it would normally take. 10,000/34 = 294.11 so it must be 300 health.

 

For the throw, do 4 blood moves (-1200), and do 3 throws and you're back to full health. Or if you go into vorpal and do 3 moves you're at -450 health. If you throw you get almost all your life back, but not quite. So, that must be the remaining 50 health.

[Villainous]

Was already mentioned before and the blockstun isn't big enough to allow you to get in from fullscreen.

If your opponent also was indeed far away, your 214[A]>B+C would whiff and the move actually got quite the noticeable recovery and animation making it really easy to guess what you're doing and being predictable in neutral is a really bad idea for Carmine.

214[A] was also mentioned before as being part of the infinite blockstring.

While I can understand that it might be a pain to read everything from the beginning, a lot of informations explained here will buy you a lot of time so I would suggest you to read the whole thread. Especially when it's, sadly, the least active character section. But then again, we don't have any troublemakers and interesting ideas are being shared so I'm quite satisfied.

Anyway guys, got some good news:

I asked a friend if he could use his video capture card to get us more frame datas.

-6[C] is actually (like a lot of overheads it seems) 28f startup. Which is, obviously, a lot. Here's the important part though. The ball indicating the move is charging only comes out at the 14th frame which explains why the move appear so slow but is quite hard to react to. Doesn't mean you have to abuse it though.

-22A is actually +1 on block. Yeah, it's not as amazing as Gordeau's 22A who is +7 it seems but +1 isn't that bad consdering that all our normals are special cancelable on block and the C normals will all lead to frame traps with 22A.

My bad, I got excited when I found it. I later went and watched some japanese play and saw them doing 214[A} B+C a lot at neutral and felt dumb but oh well, maybe someone will see my post that didn't know before. 

Speaking of 22A, I saw the same player doing 22A into 623A (or B? really hard to tell by eyeballing it) as some sort of frame trap. I wonder how big the gap is there? 

[Magaki]

22A is only +1 on block and you can get mashed out of 623A/B quite easily because of that. 623A/B also seems to be - on block with or without a puddle so it's not really a great choice for pressure.

-Tried SWD's infinite blockstring. Guard shield affects it way too much. And you have to dash in afterwards to reset pressure creating unnecessary gaps while you could deal with guard shield with the pseudo-infinite just by walking forward slightly. Better idea to stick with pseudo-infinite it seems.

-Also seems that you can't partially charge 6[C] in order to do 6C>2B/2C. It's either 6C or 6[C]. It seems that we can just slightly charge it but it's still to fast for the opponent to react so it's not really reliable. We still got 22A anyway to make it safe afterwards so it's no big deal really.

[jetblaksuit]

Sorry for the beginner question, but I'm trying to figure out how to get the last part of [5A>5B>2C>6B>2C>236A>Charged j.C>2B>j.A>j.B>j.C>3B>2C], the 3B>2C, to connect. Right now I'm doing it like [5A>5B>2C>6B>2C>236A>(walk towards/slight micro-dash)Charged j.C>(slight dash)2B>j.A>j.B>j.C>3B>2C, but they can recover as the 3B comes out at the end. Is the combo just that tight, or should I delay something beforehand?...

 

I've had more luck by doing 236B and by delaying the rising j.A just slightly on most of the cast.

[Tomo009]

I see 214 > 236A as oki here, but how does that actually work?

 

Do you have to release the B to get them to block the pinwheel and mixup or what? It seems they tech off the ground before the pinwheel even starts so I imagine it is something like that or just requires a ludicrous amount of respect?

[jo-p]

 

 

corner bnb off high low mixup

(2B 2C 3C) or (6[C]) xx 22A or B, 5B 623B, walk back instant j6B, 66C xx 236A (wait, find correct spacing) j[C] xx 236B, dashC, oki

also works generally if they wake up into a wheel mashing

 

 

any tips on how to land 236A after the dash C? can't finish this combo for the life of me!

[Magaki]

I see 214 > 236A as oki here, but how does that actually work?

 

Do you have to release the B to get them to block the pinwheel and mixup or what? It seems they tech off the ground before the pinwheel even starts so I imagine it is something like that or just requires a ludicrous amount of respect?

Wait for them to tech. Then release B and see if they block it or not. If they don't and get hit, combo. If they block it, use 236A and you can decide to either mixup or go for the pseudo-infinite blockstring for nasty frame traps.

Midscreen, you will rather go for 214[A]>236A. If the opponent back tech, do B+C>]A[ and do the same as described above.

No tricks honestly for 66C>236A. It's just a simple special cancel. Might sound confusing though because Bling wrote both 66C and dash C in the combo. Obviously, both are the same move so if you were doing 6C, there is no way you can combo 236A after it. The 3 normals you will often combo into are 236A/B are j[C], 2C and dash C.

[Needles09]

The infinite blockstring is good, not the best, but good. Especially if you see them start shielding, you can dash up and throw to break their grd. Also what confirm do you guys do off ]A[ or ]B[? My confirms are all poop

[Magaki]

Depends if you have a puddle around or not. If you do, go straight for 2C>236A. Otherwise, pick the 2C>j6B route.

[Tomo009]

Does anyone know the invincibility frames (or just frames in general) on 624C and 214C?

 

Both have been fairly consistent reversals for me but I don't think they are invinicible right up to active? 624C has been stuffed a couple of times I'm not sure if it is some vulnerability on startup or if it ends before the active. 214C I'm also unsure about because the leap Carmine does might just be giving me the illusion of invincibility due to its evasive properties.

[Magaki]

623C has no invul at all. Its only purpose is to be used when you go for the kill with 22C>Veil off>236C>623C.

214C doesn't seem to have any invul too but it's something you will only use when you definetely know when there will be an important gap in your opponent's pressure.
Our only reversal is technically 41236C. But it's a command grab and obviously, there are a lot of things that beat it. Thankfully, what usually beats 41236C loses to 214C.

If you want to go for a reversal with invul, our only choices are 41236C, 214D (make sure you're in vorpal) and Veil off. A lot of people forget about that but the defense mechanics are really strong in that game so as a Carmine player, you have to make sure to understand them and know when you have to or should go for it.

[LitchiFayeBling]

63214C actually. it overlaps with 214C if you don't return to neutral lol.

214C is great for beating gaps. it's minus on block but you get a pretty big combo if they did do some sort of delay because of how fast it jumps.

veil off is good. you get 2 or 3 chances to use 214C or 236C to start offense, and 41235D for reversal.

[Magaki]

Ohh yeah, my bad. I'll make sure next time to carefully read what I write haha.

Anyway, I tried to add in my game the assault jA>236A hit mixup during the pseudo-infinite.
Sadly, it seems that it's actually character specific because jA will simply whiff on the mentioned characters:
Doesn't work on: Linne, Vatista, Yuzu, Hilda, Seth, Merkava, Hyde
Doesn't work point blank: Eltnum, Nanase, Orie

Our rewards aren't that great on it either if we consider the combo: Assault j.A>236A(hit)>5A>2C>5B>623B>j.6B>66C>236A>Charged j.C
Which does something like 2243 dmg without vorpal or veil off.

Anyway, this is a mixup that you can easily add in the pseudo-infinite and it's quite hard to react to it but still possible so don't abuse it. Against characters who makes jA whiff though, just go for assault jC combos instead.

[Villainous]

What do you guys use to answer jump happy opponents? I generally try to anti air with 3B but it doesn't have any upper body invincibility so you have to rely on getting it out before the opponent. Does he have any other good stuff for anti air that I might not be aware of? Feels like mostly you just have to preemptively throw out wheels if you think they might jump so you can air unblockable them while they block it. 

Also I see in some enders they do 623A with puddle out into 66C but 66C moves him forward so much that he tends to go under them at most ranges. Is there a trick to getting this to work? 

[Magaki]

3B do have some invul but it's slow. Either AA with 5A or 3B.

They don't do 623A but 623B. The hitbox is bigger.

[Villainous]

3B do have some invul but it's slow. Either AA with 5A or 3B.

They don't do 623A but 623B. The hitbox is bigger.

Well either way, is there a trick to comboing 66C off of it? 

[Tomo009]

623C has no invul at all. Its only purpose is to be used when you go for the kill with 22C>Veil off>236C>623C.

214C doesn't seem to have any invul too but it's something you will only use when you definetely know when there will be an important gap in your opponent's pressure.

Our only reversal is technically 41236C. But it's a command grab and obviously, there are a lot of things that beat it. Thankfully, what usually beats 41236C loses to 214C.

If you want to go for a reversal with invul, our only choices are 41236C, 214D (make sure you're in vorpal) and Veil off. A lot of people forget about that but the defense mechanics are really strong in that game so as a Carmine player, you have to make sure to understand them and know when you have to or should go for it.

I wrote 624 not 623 but you definitely answered all my questions anyway!

Nice to know about 214C, keep it mostly for when I expect throws or slow frame traps.

 

So it seems 624C and Veil Off are the go, I'm not too often scared in this game but I'm struggling against Orie and Gordeau up close so it is nice to know my options.

[Kane-Z]

Well either way, is there a trick to comboing 66C off of it?

I was actually having the same problem. I think it has to do with how close to the opponent Carmine is before the 3B > 2C > 623+A/B > 66C (or 2C > 623+A/B) ender. This is especially a problem for corner combos.

For example, this corner combo:

(Blood puddle ON) 5A > 5B > 2C > 236A > 66C > 236B > J.[C] > j.B > 2C > 623A > 66C

I usually have to neutral jump my j.[C] in order to be in the right distance to land 66C. You can also try delaying 623+A a bit but if you are too close Carmine will dash under. Also, I'm not sure if he tends to go under certain opponents more often than others.

Magaki:

Excellent write up Magaki. Your post was very helpful. Thank you.

About another use for 63214+C. I often see Note go for that during blockstrings after a cancelled upclose 236+A (ex: 5A > 5B > 236+A > 63214+C). Not sure how safe that is but I think its fine to throw it out now and then to open people up. I'm definitively not using this move as often as I should.

[Tomo009]

Haha I did exactly that on a player here, if you have them scared of 214[X]]X[ 624C becomes a pretty potent mixup option, I just cancelled a 236A right into it without ever releasing the 214 I had under them.

[Kirnupiima]

I had a dream last night I used the command grab to anti-air Orie's j.C. It was sweet. Then I woke up.

[Magaki]

Nice ! New posts ! Quite glad to see this thread is becoming livelier !

Villainous, on 06 Aug 2014 - 12:24 AM, said:

Well either way, is there a trick to comboing 66C off of it? 

 

 

 Like Kane pointed out, the problem with 66C is its odd hitbox and the required spacing. On some characters, it will always work. On others, you need to walk backward a bit to make it work. I will take a wild guess and say that 66C's hitbox is quite big above Carmine but not that great in front and below him so spacing is as important as timing here. Just keep grinding it out and you will be used to it eventually.

 

Tomo009, on 06 Aug 2014 - 01:10 AM, said:

I wrote 624 not 623 but you definitely answered all my questions anyway!

 

Nice to know about 214C, keep it mostly for when I expect throws or slow frame traps.

 

So it seems 624C and Veil Off are the go, I'm not too often scared in this game but I'm struggling against Orie and Gordeau up close so it is nice to know my options.

 

 

Woops ! My bad ! Definetely need to stop writing posts when I'm really tired I guess haha. I thought it was a typo and you wanted to write 623 otherwise you would have instead went with 63214C for the reversal.

 

214C is godlike though against Gordeau because 63214C completely whiffs against him if he was doing 214A. Also, not sure if everyone here know but command grab reversals in that game aren't +0 after superflash. It means that if you weren't doing anything, you can jump out of it when you recognize the animation. Or just 214A for Gordeau.

It's not really that bad though because the recovery is quite short for a reversal so it makes it hard for the opponent to properly punish it if they plan to jump.

Kane-Z, on 06 Aug 2014 - 01:40 AM, said:

 

 

Excellent write up Magaki. Your post was very helpful. Thank you.

 

 

About another use for 63214+C. I often see Note go for that during blockstrings after a cancelled upclose 236+A (ex: 5A > 5B > 236+A > 63214+C). Not sure how safe that is but I think its fine to throw it out now and then to open people up. I'm definitively not using this move as often as I should.

 

 

Tomo009, on 06 Aug 2014 - 01:58 AM, said:

Haha I did exactly that on a player here, if you have them scared of 214[X]]X[ 624C becomes a pretty potent mixup option, I just cancelled a 236A right into it without ever releasing the 214 I had under them.

 

 

 

Yeah, that's something that I need to add in my game too. Thing is that I'm an extremely aggressive player so I prefer to use my meter for defense in case it backfires. I prefer to go for 214>throw. During the pseudo-infinite, it forces the opponent to make a choice. Either I throw and they try to tech it or they think I'll try to throw and eat ]A[ instead because I chose to keep my pressure going.

63214C however might be quite cool if you go for the kill so I definetely need to keep that in mind.

 

Also, I'm certain a lot of people noticed already but it does indeed seem that if you put a 214 on the ground and throw but your opponent teched, the trap will disappear. You activate it during the throw though before the throw tech happens but I never managed to make it so that it will force the opponent to get hit/block after the throw tech.

 

 

Anyway guys, if you got ideas to share or just want to express your opinion about something, please don't hesitate posting it even if you feel like it might be really silly. After all, your post might help a reader to think about a completely new idea that might bring new techs.

We also have a new matchup section now so if you need some help, don't hesitate asking !

[B.Z.B]

What's Carmine's gamplan to fight Merk? I had a lot of trouble controlling the pace of the match - he'd stay up in the air and either shoot a fireball or airdash in and start pressure.  If I guess fireball I can dashin and punish but wasn't sure if there was a better more reliable option to stop him from taking to the sky so frequently.

 

I read you can shield his 3C and punish with 5A (in case he tries to make it safe with a fireball).  Also read you can shield the last hit of his 236C and punish too.

[Magaki]

Please, post in the matchup section for this kind of question.

As for the matchup itself, 236B is quite important to control space here (Don't abuse it though because he can use 214A against that. tk236A is a safer choice though but the angle isn't as good as 236B). 236B does shut a lot of flight options but you can decide to dash under him if he decides to stay in flight mode way too long.
If he's right above your head in flight mode, you can just stand there and shield. His most obvious answer would be to go down in order to GRD break you with a throw or a low but if he does that, he's in the right range for you to poke him. He might also decide to go for j2C whiff>throw/low but you can react to that and hit him thanks to his landing recovery.

Not sure about punishing 3C but punishing 236C is quite hard. You have to guard shield the hit before the last one in order to successfully shield the last hit which will makes it go from -3 to -6 but that's not something you will see often trust me. It's possible with Carmine yeah but there is a risk. If you mess up and guard shield the last hit instead, you will make 236C + on block.