[UNIEL] Seth

[Falco252]

So about Vista's combo (combo 5 from the previous post), I did some testing. Didn't bother with 623A for now tho, is it more optimal? I'll try later

 

dash C, no problem

 

Seth 

Linne

Nanase

Vatista

Nanase

Chaos

Byakuya

Akatsuki

Hilda

Eltnum

 

dash C, use j.6C, 6C whiffs (this also works for characters where 6C works, but poorer oki? (tested on vatista))

 

Merkava

Orie

Hyde

Carmine

Gordeau

 

Waldenstein : use 6C after delay 623B, orb hits anyways and dash C goes under

(can optimize?)

 

I'm not even confirming that 6C doesn't work on the last 5 chars yet (EXCEPT maybe Orie which I really can't get it on), because at first Hilda and Eltnum were in the second group, it looks like it's really dependent on the j.214A > delay 623B timing, I'll try more in a few hours and edit this, this combo is very stable imo since it somehow works on everyone, and pretty easy to pick up.

[True_Tech]

 

 

So about Vista's combo (combo 5 from the previous post), I did some testing. Didn't bother with 623A for now tho, is it more optimal? I'll try later

 

dash C, no problem

 

Seth 

Linne

Nanase

Vatista

Nanase

Chaos

Byakuya

Akatsuki

Hilda

Eltnum

 

dash C, use j.6C, 6C whiffs (this also works for characters where 6C works, but poorer oki? (tested on vatista))

 

Merkava

Orie

Hyde

Carmine

Gordeau

 

Waldenstein : use 6C after delay 623B, orb hits anyways and dash C goes under

(can optimize?)

 

I'm not even confirming that 6C doesn't work on the last 5 chars yet (EXCEPT maybe Orie which I really can't get it on), because at first Hilda and Eltnum were in the second group, it looks like it's really dependent on the j.214A > delay 623B timing, I'll try more in a few hours and edit this, this combo is very stable imo since it somehow works on everyone, and pretty easy to pick up.

 

 

 

I recorded that particular combo on carmine, had no problem getting 6c at the end, this was a first try attempt 

recorded the 2a combos cause i needed a reference to how much to delay, i hope this helps a bit. also recorded the 66c 623a cross up for anyone that didn't know about it

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4xroNZ2Ceww&feature=youtu.be&a

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fy0X2a08BQM&feature=youtu.be&a

[Falco252]

Figured it was my fault, wasn't used to j214A delay 623B, and it looks like it's the factor.

Looks like the delay needed for 623B is different and is chara specific, gotta try on orie more, I'm more or less confident that it can work on anyone now.

 

Yep I get it on everyone now while half sleepy(except merkava which seems weird, gotta try tomorrow)

[S.D.]

So I assume this is a semi-decent setup for a bit of oki? (I've been getting more and more used to the combo Brett posted with the 5b, jb, backdash 6C after fastfall though)

 

You basic starter to 214CC > 6C > 236B > 214A > 214BB > 22 > 66C > B+C > 6C > 236A (I prefer 236A as a finisher after his Force Function over 236B since having the unhittable orb close the to the opponent gives you some pretty good momentum)

 

Apologies if this was already discussed but I just had to try some stuff after seeing a Seth at TRB without 6C > Orb combos :/

[Falco252]

My 2 cents is that it's useless tbh, you use 1GRD block (which are precious especially in some matchups) for the Force Function, and you have less time to do an oki setup if you use 236A (looks like most of them can't even work), while doing 6C > 236B sets the orb too far away from the opponent for him to even try popping it up (and it's not really their priority in their wake up).

But yeah trying to find a way to put a force function somewhere in a combo that doesn't end in 6C could be usefull, then keeping the orb in neutral maybe? People probably already thought of that tho

[brett_]

There is a use to that setup, i'll explain when I have time but there's a specific reason.

[Falco252]

Ah okay, my bad then.
But most of the time it's better to just do 6C > 236B nonetheless right?

[S.D.]

Yeah, since your orb can get hit, and it's definitely better to have that nice Vorpal damage bonus plus the ability to CS his j214B, 623C or true cross up setup.

 

As Brett said, Seth's Force Function is very very situational and match up specific I think (For instance, Waldstein since he can freely hit your orbs from just about anywhere on screen)

[Rikir]

Man I planned a long set vs Carmine yesterday. Im pretty certain setting orbs in neutral is practically impossible. Its better to just wave through the blood spikes and wheels with your movement and -maybe- set an orb if itll help you get over something/ you see an opening.

[mAceOfHearts]

Is j.214A + on block? A Seth player I fought did j.214A-214 and I couldn't interrupt it.

[744Dante]

Which a better anti air than 3C  5B or 5A?

 

3C is a bit too slow when it comes to anti airing fast jump attacks so I have to start using 5A or 5B more but I feel my confirms could be a bit better with 5A and 5B. What are some good anti air routes with 5A and 5B?

[744Dante]

Don't know if this is new or not but I found a midscreen oki combo with Seth 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PrtyxLaWyBQ&list=UUcSgpyX3Oy2YJnk15mPy7jA

[drugtown]

so this is a weird behavior, maybe someone's already talked about it

 

apparently if you hit dash C close enough it actually makes you switch sides for a moment and flips your inputs? i was practicing dash C > 623B > 214C~C and noticed this

 

https://vine.co/v/MLpq1MQzdTQ (sorry for the shitty vine shakycam, i'm too poverty for a capture card)

 

is there any way to make it not do this or do i just have to be more aware of my spacing

[heavymetalmixer]

so this is a weird behavior, maybe someone's already talked about it

 

apparently if you hit dash C close enough it actually makes you switch sides for a moment and flips your inputs? i was practicing dash C > 623B > 214C~C and noticed this

 

https://vine.co/v/MLpq1MQzdTQ (sorry for the shitty vine shakycam, i'm too poverty for a capture card)

 

is there any way to make it not do this or do i just have to be more aware of my spacing

 

Did you notice that the oppponent wakes up facing the other side?

 

This could make interesting cross ups.

[o Nereus o]

so this is a weird behavior, maybe someone's already talked about it

 

apparently if you hit dash C close enough it actually makes you switch sides for a moment and flips your inputs? i was practicing dash C > 623B > 214C~C and noticed this

 

https://vine.co/v/MLpq1MQzdTQ (sorry for the shitty vine shakycam, i'm too poverty for a capture card)

 

is there any way to make it not do this or do i just have to be more aware of my spacing

You have to be aware of your spacing. You can also delay the 623B so that you don't get 214x

[Rikir]

Which a better anti air than 3C  5B or 5A?

 

3C is a bit too slow when it comes to anti airing fast jump attacks so I have to start using 5A or 5B more but I feel my confirms could be a bit better with 5A and 5B. What are some good anti air routes with 5A and 5B?

 

I prefer 5A as my anti air just for how fast/high it hits.

5B route is like:

5B > 623B > 623A > 2C > 214CC > 6C > Rion Combo

5A route is now like:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hB4pp6VJhUw&feature=youtu.be

You dont have to end it like the way I did btw.

 

so this is a weird behavior, maybe someone's already talked about it

 

apparently if you hit dash C close enough it actually makes you switch sides for a moment and flips your inputs? i was practicing dash C > 623B > 214C~C and noticed this

 

https://vine.co/v/MLpq1MQzdTQ (sorry for the shitty vine shakycam, i'm too poverty for a capture card)

 

is there any way to make it not do this or do i just have to be more aware of my spacing

Yeah that happens, just delay your next attack. Dante did this in Marvel 3 as well >_>

 

Did you notice that the oppponent wakes up facing the other side?

 

This could make interesting cross ups.

Meaty 66C (cross over) > 623A is a setup that we kinda discussed already.

 

Is j.214A + on block? A Seth player I fought did j.214A-214 and I couldn't interrupt it.

No its negative. But Seth is actually just cancelling j.214A on block into 214BB so youre not really just going to hit him out of it.

[True_Tech]

you guys hurt my feelings https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fy0X2a08BQM&feature=youtu.be&a not only did we discuss i recorded that shit. 

[kid viper]

alternative for 5a AA based off rion's route+ brett's ender https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LuCgMSA8gL4

[Falco252]

So... uh VO combo alternate route? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_mwq_l9yjG8

Dunno if there can be a practical use to that but well.

[Rikir]

you guys hurt my feelings https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fy0X2a08BQM&feature=youtu.be&a not only did we discuss i recorded that shit. 

I.. I didnt forget! I swear :<

 

So... uh VO combo alternate route? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_mwq_l9yjG8

Dunno if there can be a practical use to that but well.

I like this one. I dont have enough combo routes into VO without CS.

[brett_]

So, I mentioned posting about Seth's midscreen unblockable setup info a week or two ago, but I've been too busy to dump the stuff I found out - might as well stop procrastinating and post a bit. Some of you may already know this, but for those who think the midscreen unblockable is just guaranteed damage, read on:

 

For those who don't know, the basic midscreen unblockable setup is the following:

Stuff > 214AC > 6C > 236B > j.214A > 214BB > 22 > Dash C > Orb Hits > 236A/B > EX Command Grab > j.2C > Orb forces block > j.214B

 

The general premise is that after j.2C, the orb keeps them in block stun, and then forces them to eat the j.214B.

 

Now, the following is from studies I did recording various timings and setup variations on myself, so it is quite possible that more research can debunk what I'm saying. Please keep that in mind. That being said:

 

It seems that if you COMBO into j.2C, you can backdash the orb, causing your j.214B to whiff. This seems to be the case regardless of A or B orb. The window is pretty tight depending on when you time your orb, but you can certainly mash it and easily get it every single time (thank you, input buffer). Now, it's possible that you can time your initial 236A/B to be as late as possible, then immediately cancel into EX Command Throw as early as possible, in order to make the orb later, and thus hit them at the end of their backdash. Alas, I could not accomplish this, and it doesn't seem possible, for me at least (If you're able to do this, please record and upload so this entire post can be made null). 

 

Now fortunately, if they're just mashing backdash while you're doing this setup, there's a pretty easy fix.

 

If you DO NOT COMBO j.2C and they mash backdash, the orb will hit the backdash. I tested this with characters with good backdashes and average ones, and the orb seems to catch them all. To do this, you simply need to delay your j.2C slightly. If they get hit by the orb, your j.2C whiffs and you can combo off the orb hit. This fix, however, has a major flaw. If you do uncombo'd j.2C into Dive, and they chose to block, there is a gap between the orb and j.214B (because j.2C was delayed, so the dive will also be delayed). Meaning, if they waited and saw you uncombo'd j.2C, they can mash backdash once the orb is blocked and escape like the original setup. Again, like I mentioned above, I was not able to reproduce it, but it may be possible that you can delay making the orb as long as possible, then delay your j.2C the bare minimum to uncombo. If such was the case, you'd beat all options other than supers / DPs. If you can reproduce this, please let us know (record if possible).

 

So, to sum it up:

 

1) If they're mindlessly mashing backdash, you can just delay j.2C to punish them.

2) If they're not doing anything, just do the normal setup.

 

Here's the issue: In theory, you can probably simply watch Seth and as soon as the j.2C connects, start mashing backdash to escape EITHER option. I haven't encountered a player who can do this yet but I suspect it's very reasonable. A couple options I came up with:

 

1) Instead of j.2C, simply do a slightly delayed j.214B - this leaves a much larger gap, and is also jumpable, but if they're focusing on reacting to your j.2C, this may throw them off guard (by simply not j.2C'ing at all). Unfortunately, I think if you're used to this enough, you could easily recognize the gap and still be able to react to j.2C.

2) I haven't actually tested, but perhaps you can do some weird timing of j.214A to catch backdash instead (If anyone wants to test this for me, let me know)

3) Do a mixup instead (something other than j.2C, basically)

4) Perhaps you can delay your j.214B EXTREMELY LATE, so much so that you'll catch them AFTER the backdash - this seems really impractical but if your timing and yomi are on point and they're mashing backdash (often a necessity against the standard UB), you can probably catch it with practice.

 

For now, most people have barely any normal Seth experience, let alone understand how his unblockable works, so switching up between combo and uncombo is likely good enough for now, but unless a better option gets confirmed, this may actually not end up being very viable in the end.

[o Nereus o]

I went to the lab to experiment more on Seth's CH/HCH juggles (since you usually get CH/HCH properties on punished DP's) and found out you can do 2C > 3B on CH/HCH.

 

2C > 3B > delay 623A > 5B > delay 623B > 214AC > 6C > j.236B > j.214A > 214BB > 22 or 2A+B > Dash C > 6C > j.236B (oki)

 

Not sure if this was already posted in the earlier pages :/

 

Big thanks to Alrikir for sparking my interest on 3B

 

 

EDIT: 2 more CH/HCH combos:

 

Dash C > 623B >  663B > delay 623A > 2C (1) > 214AC (or 214CC) > 6C > j.236B > j.214A  > 214BB > 22 or 2A+B > Dash C > 6C > j.236B (oki).

 

2C > 623A > 5B > 623B > 662C (1) > 214AC > 6C > j.236B > j.214A > 214BB > 22 or 2A+B > Dash C > 6C > j.236B (oki).

 

The second one does less damage than the 1st 2C combo above in this post so i'd just go with the 1st 2C.. but it's a a bit more fun to do IMO

 

EDIT 2: If you delay the 623B after the Dash C.. you won't have to dash in order for the 3B to work since you're closer to your opponent.

[brett_]

I'm confused - doesn't that work on non-CH?

[Rikir]

Tried to apply that VO route to a different combo:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_uwp0XL1UBg

CANT GET THE 623A > IW. If you do the IW raw then its like 4349 in terms of damage.

[o Nereus o]

I'm confused - doesn't that work on non-CH?

I tried doing it on non-CH... it didn't work. I tried it multiple times as well. The 2C > 3B > delay 623A > 5B > delay 623B > 214AC will work.... but as soon as you try to do the 6C... the opponent will tech out of it. On CH/HCH... that's not the case.