[UNIEL] Seth

[brett_]

Against characters like Gordeau whos fastest normal is 6F, you can actually time a delayed Dash C that both beats/trades wakeup mash, while also catching backdashes. 

 

Against characters with a 5F normal, from my limited testing it seems that you cannot time Dash C to both catch BD and also beat a wakeup 5F normal (not enough active frames), though I could easily just be wrong about this part.

 

Note also that wakeup throw (4F) is universal so that option must also be respected.

 

Please be aware that your Dash C does not actually need to be meaty to beat DPs, and in some cases you're better off not making it meaty. Depending on positioning, meaty Dash C will cross up their inputs, or sometimes just giving them a block instead (crossed up 623 input will give block often).

 

For an actual concrete example, you can time your Dash C so that it beats Gordeau wakeup 5A, reversal EX grim reaper, ex cmd throw, and 22c, as well as wakeup VO. It will lose to wakeup throw, and that's it.

 

So basically delay meaty Dash C still beats reversals and catches backdash, but will lose to wakeup 5f mash or throw. You can easily stuff those options by meatying properly or using 2A, 5CC, or doing a delayed meaty 2A. Blocking is also pretty fine since you have an orb out,

 

Also you can always meaty with 214X~A/B, amongst other things.

[Tigre]

Added Brett's Seth notes to the first post, I missed the posts asking to add it, mea culpa

[brett_]

Hey guys, it's been a while since I've dropped a significant post. While working on our multi-char CMV and the upcoming Seth CMV I had decided to put off making some of my more recent discovers in lieu of showing them in the videos. However I've recently decided I don't have enough time to complete my Seth CMV so here's what I've been doing / discovering over the last 4-5 months. 

The Practical Stuff

a lot of this is stuff people may or may not know about but I have yet to see many people actually apply, but these are things I do in matches constantly. You may also see players like PadTrick or Kizzie_Kay doing these, because though I haven't posted, I've been trying to at least help out the other Seths during locals.

 

Corner Okizeme after B Blink > air B Orb > air backdash 

In the corner, after ending in B blink (4) > B orb, everyone is pretty aware about DI'ing backwards and catching their forward tech with a weird j.B that may appear crossup but hits sameside, and generally catches people for mashing etc. However, if you DI your backdash FORWARD, you will actually catch all tech directions with j.B falling down, which, if timed properly, is a safejump against most DPs. You can test this yourself in training mode by setting the opponent's tech direction to random, then trying out forward DI. 

If they the block the falling j.B, you can then do a rising j.2C > j.214B, and your previously placed Orb will set up into a perfect unblockable. The opponents can either mash something in between your j.B > j.2C (hard and scary) or try and shield your j.2C. You're not really punishable if they shield j.2C thanks to the orb, and shielding at that point means you can just go for other mixups instead (throw, assault, 6C, etc).

Because of this, I will often aim for corner from poor starters if it will lead to corner air tech okizeme. It's extremely match practical because it covers every tech direction with one option

The best way for the opponent to escape this is to no-tech, delay tech, or ground tech, but you're generally not at disadvantage for simply whiffing your j.B. You can also react to their late tech and j.214A meaty them, air assault, etc. There are many answers to various techs which I won't get into in too much detail, but feel free to mess around in training mode.

Back Tech Crossup gimmick After B Blink > B Orb > Fastfall

If you end a combo in the corner with B Blink (putting yourself into the corner) > B Orb > Fastfall and they are holding [4] to air tech, you actually get a 50/50. You can walk under them to crossunder them, or stay cornered. Meaty crossup or sameside with 2B > 2C > 623A (orb hits) > 6C > etc for full combo into 6C KD.

This gimmick is not very effective because of the threat of the above listed all-direction tech chase, but against opponents who you haven't conditioned to no-tech, this is a very hard to see gimmick.

Corner Carry BnBs with Dash C

Plenty of JP player use this a lot, but not very many Americans. The idea is basically to end your normal bnb with a sameside fastfall > delay Dash C for great corner carry. Example:

Stuff > 214AC > 6C > B Orb > A Dive > B Blink (4) > dl Dash C > run a bit > 6C

With the right timing, you can get all the way to the corner from practically starting position on certain characters, depending on how big their air hurtbox is. It takes some practice to understand what height you're supposed to hit them with the Dash C, but getting them farther in the corner helps greatly (see next section). 

Corner Orb Crossup

If you're point blank in the corner, you can end combos in 6C > Air A orb, which will place them behind the opponent. This lets you then do a string like 2A > 2C(1) > 214B and cross them in the corner with an orb hit. You can then do air backdash air assault fastfall for some added gimmicks :P.

If the crossup orb hits them, you can do the following combo:

Orb Hit > 2C(1) > 21[4]AC > 6C > B Orb > A Dive > B Blink [4] > 2C(2) > 6C > A Orb. On most characters, this A orb will just BARELY be behind them, leading to the same setup.

You can choose to crossup with A blink or B blink. I generally suggest B, as it's harder to react to and safer if they try and throw you during the gap. Please be aware that if you make the gap too small, it can be auto corrected. In some cases the A blink can even hit them after the orb hits (I don't get why lol), and lead to a hard to combo situation. 

Again this setup isn't really brand spanking knew, it's been know for a while. But it helps emphasize one of the things that's a common vein among all these notes, which is just how important corner carry is. 

A typical good round for me is often something like land a hit > Corner carry combo > Air tech chase safejump j.B into UB > CS > bnb into A orb set > Crossup > bnb into A orb set > one more mixup > dead.

EX Cmd Throw > Crossup Orb setups

Doing combos into the basic midscreen unblockable setup is often risky when the opponent knows how to avoid it, but there are a few particular setups which also give you the option to do a crossup gimmick too. EX Cmd Throw generally puts you on the other side of the opponent. If the orb is on the original side, after the cmd throw you will be sandwiched. Off of this ex cmd throw, if you do an air assault, the orb will hit crossup (remember that you must travel to the same side as the orb for it to properly hit crossup). This orb hit is generally not meaty (or you wouldn't have time to crossup), and thus will lose to upback, but it will beat people who are looking for your j.2C (to mash backdash to escape traditional UB setup), VO (another great anti-UB option), and backdash mash, as well as probably mess up any reversal input or avoid it completely (many DPs). After the forward air assault crossup attempt, I immediately air backdash then fastfall this is because by this point, if they blocked the cross up, you can then attempt to re-cross them up and 2B etc, which often works from my experience! If they got hit by the orb, even after the backdash you still have enough time to fastfall 2C and continue combo'ing. Also, if you do air assault > fastfall, you'll get hit by the VO, whereas delaying by doing air backdash > fastfall, will let their VO whiff. You actually have enough time to punish the VO whiff with this timing! Also note that this setup obviously doesn't work on Seth or Nanase. It will still work on Hilda, though. Also on Hilda and Akatsuki, fastest possible j.2C will actually whiff, creating an even faster crossup setup. In Akatsuki's case there must be enough proration. Also this can be done on Yuzu with a slightly delayed j.2C given enough proration. The easiest way to go into this setup is off any 6C mid-combo:

Anything > 6C > B Orb > A Dive > EX Cmd Throw > Air Assault (Orb hits crossup) OR j.2C > j.214B UB.

Generally this means going into it from your traditional 214AC > 6C bnb, which I do not like because you miss out on solid oki and decent damage, which the above lacks.

However, there are two situations where I'll tend to actually use this setup:

1. Off of a ground orb hit, transitioning into (2C > 214AC >) 6C > B orb > A dive > EX Cmd
2. When I have CS, depending on the situation
3. When the opponent is low enough 

Basically depending on the situation, you may want a fast gimmick the end a round, or in the case of #2, using the setup to instead go for j.2C > j.214B CS combo. Probably the thing I like best about this whole setup is that you can decide to transition into it very late in the combo, and even up to the point of the EX Cmd throw, change your mind about whether you want to go crossup, sameside, or unblockable. This is a very undervalued trait, but I think it really helps out for being able to more accurately grasp your opponent's mental state during the setup. This setup is very fast and has no real tell that you're going for it up until the super flash, which makes this a lot harder for the opponent to steel themselves for. I use it in case #1 because the combo itself is very short, and right off of them getting ground orb (usually a previous orb crossup), so the high paced tempo of gimmicks helps out. Also you aren't forgoing that much damage because orb starter damage is mediocre, and non-stunning orb > 6C hit can be inconsistant against certain characters, and always leaves you farther than normal orb > 6C enders, which I don't like

As I said previously, you must have an orb behind you to go into this setup, and outside of 6C, there are a few more, though they're both not as practical.

5ABC> 214AC > 6C > B Orb > A Dive > dl B Blink > 2C(1) > 3C -OR- 2C(2) > TK B Orb + Orb hit > A Dive > EX Cmd Throw. This combo is actually extremely extremely important. It's a midscreen combo for 100% meter that leads to an unblockable which can also be an orb crossup, which I believe is a pretty huge breakthrough. I have listed it here because I have only recently discovered it and haven't had time to test out its practicality. It does not seem -TOO- difficult to go for, so this may end up being your go-to BnB. Please note that due to weird hitbox issues and the fact that the orb now pushes towards them in the case that you go for j.2C UB afterwards, the subsequent B Dive will whiff Yuzu / Wald if they are crouch blocking the orb. Only those two characters, for some bizarre reason.

Another example is from Stuff > 2C > B Blink > B Orb > A Dive > EX Cmd Throw. This even works from a 2A starter, which is nice, though the B orb has to be timed well and if you mess up, you're screwed, so this is one I tend to avoid.

The last example takes advantage of Dash C. Dash C when hit deep enough, allows you to do a backwards orb set. In practicality, Dash C > Backwards Orb can only be consistently followed up mid-combo if an orb is hitting them, and we know that you cannot make an orb while another orb is out. Unfortunately, it's very hard to get a Dash C and make a backwards orb hit while the orb is hitting, sometimes they swap sides, and other weird things happen. So, the best solution (thusfar at least) is to use EX Orb. Here's the basic EX Orb unblockable setup, which is credited to Tari for first inventing:

Anything > 214AC > 6C > B Orb > A Dive > B Blink > Fastfall > delayed, deep Dash C > Crossup EX Orb > Orb hits > EX Cmd Throw 

Though this costs a total of 200% meter, this is extremely hard to escape setup. The reason being that without meter, the only universal way to escape is to backdash, and the ex orb behind them will catch any backdash attempt. Any attempts at DPing will also simply result in an EX Orb trade, and since the orb is behind them, destroying the orb isn't an option either. VO is generally still a decent way to escape, but due how variable the timing can be with EX Orb, the gap is often hard to even VO out of. There also seems to be a weird bug where mashing the input seems to overlap in some weird way which causes it become extremely hard to VO out of, i.e. if you time your VO properly, you'll VO out, but mash it extremely fast and nothing will come out. This has been tested with multiple people in a semi-reproduceable fashion so I don't think this is just me being bad at mashing. You can even time it so that the entire thing including the EX orb hits is actually a combo right up until the B dive connects, which is pretty incredible. The reward off this setup is also very high, as attempting the air assault crossup will give you an EX Orb hit, which leads to a full combo. Similarly, catching the backdash with EX Orb hit will also result in a full combo even after whiffing j.214B. A word of note about this setup though: Depending on character and timing, there is a chance that the dud hit (One of the EX Orb hits will not stun if the first whiffs) will catch the BD instead, leading to no real punish. I can't remember off the top of my head which characters this happens on though.

The above setup is a little more difficult than most of the BnBs, but not impractical, as proven by Tari, who does this setup pretty consistently. It is certainly extremely easy on big characters like Waldstein, but do note that attempting this setup does require a good amount of understanding of subtle delay and character air hurtbox inconsistencies, as as getting the proper Dash C > EX Orb such that they are close enough to EX Cmd throw can be difficult without strong familiarity. 

The corner version is a lot easier and very practical:

Anything > 214AC > 6C > B Orb > A Dive > B Blink (4) > Dash C > EX Orb > EX Cmd > UB

The reason being that due to the wall, they'll always be close enough to EX Cmd throw even without proper timing. There are a lot of other variants which I'll address in the "Impractical" section, but the above listed are all fairly practical. 

2A Starter with EX Cmd Ender

You may have noticed there was a 2A combo in the above section which used B Orb, and have asked why it was not A Orb into A Dive. If you use A Dive, the orb will never uncombo, but it leads us to an interesting combo route:

A lot of people may be familiar with a common way to convert 2A starter into j.6C knockdown by spending 100 meter to EX Dive. The combo looks something like 2ABC > 623A > 2B > B Blink > A Orb > EX Dive > j.6C. Here's a route which will look similar but has some very interesting okizeme potential:

2A > 2B > 2C > 623A > 2B > B Blink > A Orb > A Dive > EX Cmd

The following is not particularly innovative, but I recommend trying it out for the potential after orb hits. You can actually 5A them while they're in standing orb hitstun and reset them standing, which is extremely unexpected. If you have vorpal, you can reset into a command throw, for example, and CS into real damage. The orb crumple itself gives you hard knockdown, which means you can actually place an orb behind them, and if they dont back tech, It does ~200 less than the EX Dive combo but the okizeme feels much better, so I recommend this. Executionally it's not that hard either.

623A > EX Command Throw blockstring

Though 623A is technically -7, you can cancel it very late, punishing anyone who attempts to poke out of it. Even if they don't, EX Cmd throw is actually a bit difficult to react to if they're not used to it, so it has legitimacy in and of itself. This is sort of like Gordeau 3C on block > EX Assimilation, though not as good. It's sort of a gimmick but it can condition opponents to respect 623A more, and being able to end your blockstrings into this can often times be a high reward gamble, since you get a full combo off of it. Great against opponents / characters where you really want to just keep sticking on them and are afraid of transitioning into Blink. Note that opponents who are in the know can actually just escape this by holding [4] after blocking 623A, then punish the whiff. You can also use A Dive > EX Cmd throw in a similar way.

Converting into j.C > Dash C

Though most people know most of the straight forward bnbs, a lot of time we're caught off guard and are forced to adlib. One of the things I've become a big fan of using in this regard is the j.C > land Dash C route. Here's an example from a random j.A air to air hit:

j.A > j.B > j.C > land Dash C > 623B - from here, 214AC will combo but linking j.C must be a TK, so in match I often extend as 623B > j.ABC > 5B > j.B > j.C > A Dive > Orb/Blink Oki.

Obviously the preferred bnb is to do j.ABC into land 2C > 214AC > 6C > etc, but based on height, presence of mind, etc, that route will not work out. This is especially common depending on character and HEIGHT. There are many times in match where you may hit them too high either for 2C to link, or for 2C > 214AC to drop. Sometimes the 214AC 1st hit will connect, but the 2nd hit will whiff (due to height). But j.B/j.C into Dash C seems to be very consistent in terms of repairing a combo. Afterwards you can pretty much do whatever route you feel like. If you read the corner tech section, you'll know how beneficial even air tech oki is once they're near the corner, so these kinds of combos, though technically not optimal, feel just as good as 214AC > 6C bnbs if it puts them at the corner, since you get a safejump into unblockable or other oki etc. 

I honestly cannot even recall the actual combos that I use involving this route, because almost all of them are ad lib. Some examples are perhaps 3C or 5A AA into it, or 623B > 5B > j.B > j.C > Dash C. 

Basically starters that may have some height inconsistency, and then right before my j.C, I can gauge the height and decide whether or not 2C will work. If I feel uncomfortable going to 2C, I'll choose Dash C and get corner carry instead. Hopefully I'm illustrating my point on this particular route, but please ask for clarification if this doesn't make sense. I think this route is not very known or preferred due to being unoptimal on paper, but I highly recommend being conscious of this during matches. I started doing this around 4-5 months ago and I have definitely noticed how much it helps.

Dash C Option Select - Far

If you've ever seen a west coast Seth do Dash C CH > 214B > j.C > 2C > 214AC, this is an option select we've been using for a while. Dash C is a really great move, and a lot of the time you will opt to throw out a Dash C without knowing whether or not it will hit.

It's pretty much impossible to confirm whether the dash C is a block or hit. What you normally see are Seth's doing:

Dash C > 623B: Full combo on any hit, but leaves you in a bad position of blocked. If Dash C hits too deep, you get nothing.

Dash C > nothing: Great on counterhit regardless of position, but punishable on block. 

What I recommend is the following: Dash C > 214B (can also hold B here). On CH, you get the above route, which leads to a full bnb. On block, you get a 214B. On hit, you get no combo. My reasoning for using this is that most of the time, your Dash C's CH. This is because Dash C is often a normal you use for challenging people at midrange, or possibly pushing buttons during staggers. From my experience, I'd say about 75% of the time or more, its going to be a CH. I personally feel its worth sacrificing that 25% in order to get a MUCH better position on block. After 214B, air backdash j.B will catch a lot of people off guard, even people who know the MU. In my region I will say there's only one person I feel stuffs this "gimmick" consistently, and even people who have won majors for this game still get hit by Dash C > 214B > Air backdash j.B. It's very disorienting, and I'll talk about it later in more depth.

If you feel 214B is too risky, you can opt for Dash C > 214(B), which is a much safer option. Obviously they can call it out in various ways (I've touched on the subject in great depth previously), but usually when an opponent is blocking Dash C, they're worried about whether you'll do Dash C > 623A or something. 

Dash C Option Select - Close

If you're aiming for Dash C > 623A as a crossup, I actually recommend just mashing the A input a few extra times. This will catch most backdashes without you having to think too hard. A lot of the time even if it doesn't punish, your 2A will either beat their poke or because you're OS, your timing will be better than theirs. There's no real reason not to do this anyways, since 623A on hit takes forever so those A inputs don't change anything

Rising j.A OS

A lot of you may already know about rising j.A in general, but there's a lot going on with why I think it's good. First of all, I generally always input rising j.A with an additional j.B input to auto-confirm any air-to-air hits I get. If they get hit or block standing its pretty bad (especially if you shield), but this happens only 5% of the time, and its worth the risk for a free combo. The j.A itself serves two purposes: One is to catch jumps, and the other is to hit the opponent out of any counter poke, or avoid it (will hit out some standing normals, or whiff as they 2A). It will also act as a free "in" in situations, as I'll explain later. In general this j.A is often done at close range at neutral, as a low risk way to attempt to preserve some momentum. 

j.A on whiff recovers very fast, allowing you to come down with a falling j.B (hits both sides) or j.A on the way down. This is very disorienting as many people will try and press a button as you are falling, expecting to landing punish you. This is very similar to hyde's j.A > j.A, or Akatsuki's j.A > j.B/j.2C. Being predictable with the j.B can lead to it being shield punished, but its very scary to do so because it may cross their input up depending on your spacing of j.A.

You can also do rising j.A > air backdash falling j.B. This is very similar to the 214B > j.B I mentioned earlier. You will often counter hit people because not only is it disorienting visually, no other character has such an option, so this is particularly strong against people who are not extremely conditioned to playing against Seth. UNIEL has many strong reactive defensive options, such as Shield, throw tech OS, fuzzy backdashes, etc. In this sense, I feel that many UNIEL players actually do not prioritize some of the fundamental proactive thinking habits of most fighting games, such as looking out for a jump. As such, most opponents will react a bit late to this rising j.A, and your j.B will often hit them or cross their input up. Even characters with extremely strong anti airs, like Merkava, will actually lose unless their 4B is timed accurately, due to the crossup. I will often do this kind of thing while I have an orb out that's about to fire too, to catch people trying to avoid the orb with a jump. 

As a character, Seth doesn't have very many ways to get in without putting themselves at risk, so I find this method, while also risky, gives you some more variance and unpredictability, when used correctly. Though this may sound kind of janky on paper, I feel its strong considering this type of option works fairly well against players in my region, which I consider relatively strong in the US.

IW Ender

I use VO combos a lot, my main one is the Stuff > 214AC > 6C > B Orb > dl A dive > dl B Blink (4) > 623A > CS > VO > j.B > j.C > EX CMD > etc route. I probably use this combo once every 2-3 games (whenever I have 150+ meter, CS, and feel comfortable with the setup). The reason being that the Oki you get is the best in the game. You recovery very early while they're knocked down, which gives you a certain Orb hit timing I categorize. It's the timing where meaty Dash C > 623A (hit) > Orb will connect. For example, 6C does NOT give this timing. Ending an air combo with A Dive > 236A does give this timing, if they air tech. 

The great thing about this knockdown is that if you IW and set an orb, the orb ends up on the same side as you as long as you run at them then dash C. After dash C, the orb is behind them and you are on the other side. This gives you a real 50/50 mixup. the 'crossup' A DP must be blocked one way, while Dash C > 214x must be blocked the other way. I think even now, most people still expect Dash C > 623A to connect, but nonetheless this is a true mixup that must be respected, and you get meaty Dash C which will beat most reversal options. This setup is probably Seth's most legitimate common setup in the entire game.

VO Ender

For similar reasons, I end my combos in VO very often. My most common example is basically:

Stuff > 214AC > 6C > B Orb > A Dive > B Blink > Dash C/B > VO.

Basically the BNB until the very end. This is actually very useful because I can take my time checking the VO clock and choosing whether or not I feel its worth it.

Ending in VO removes vorpal from your opponent, provided the VO connected. It removes the opponents vorpal status, which is extremely key. Many characters are very hard to pressure while they have vorpal, and often doing oki against characters with Vorpal feels awful, so it often feels like the post-VO oki ends up being better than traditional oki if they have vorpal.

Secondly, when they tech the VO, the oki timing is actually very similar to the IW timing. If you connect VO, and set an orb, Dash C > 623A > Orb will combo. Note that you cannot actually meaty Dash C because they are very far away. In fact, any close range meaty will lose to mash. However, most people will respect this knockdown because of its rarity and it looks legit. If you think they're going to mash, you can Dash C from far away and get a CH instead :P

Off of this crossup 623A hit you can then do a VO combo and end in IW for another setup as above! This match flow is actually very common as both give you true 50/50 mixups.

2B > 5C > 2A blockstring

Most Seth players are mainly trying to emulate Rion, because he's clearly the best Seth and there's nothing wrong with that. However, a while ago I actually noticed the #3 (i think?) player, Oushu, doing a particular blockstring which I have come to really prefer: 2B > 5C > 2A.

My reasoning is the following: Traditional 2AA > dl 2B/2C > etc strings are great, but can get predictable, and you're basically gambling fast and hard. what 2B > 5C > 2A does is place your stagger point farther down in the string. Most players tend to assume Seth pressure is over after 3 normals or so. The mixup is basically 2B > 5C > 2A > dl (5B >) 2C (5A afterwards for RB pressure or 214AC to combo) or 2B > 5C > 2A > recover > dash pressure. You basically create the same situation as just starting with 2A, but you place a few normals in front of it. This might not sound THAT big of a deal but you can do your entire 2B > 5C > 2A blockstring on HIT and still convert to 214AC > 6C, even if you're very slow as hitconfirming. The ability to hit/block confirm late gives a lot of added benefits.

The downsides are:

1. Less lows - 2AAA is great for blowing up throwtech OSs, but with great cmd throw use, people will not really be throw teching that much. It will still also help catch BD / Up Back, though!
2. 2B is 1f slower than 2A, meaning that you may lose out on speed if you opt only for this
3. The pushback is very severe, meaning this string can feel a lot harder to weave in proper cmd throws.

This string is basically much more stable and versatile, but lacks the potency since you cannot just straight up threaten to cmd throw at any given point. If you're a player who really thrives on raw committed decision making and extremely hard reads, I think 2AA > 2B/2C is still the best. If you want more focus on frame trapping, try this one.

Random Orb Hit Confirms

Being able to convert Orb Hits properly is also extremely key for me. If you remember that classic high damage combo from 623A > Orb hits (the one with three 6Cs in it), this will seem similar. Basically the idea is based on where the orb is, you ALWAYS want to combo into 6C. This is because your combo is basically ass without it, and getting this hit really bumps up the quality of the combo.

For example, traditionally off of a random orb air hit, one might do B Blink and then go for a corner carry combo or maybe 2C > 214AC, which involves being able to gauge the fall speed really well. This is further exacerbated by the fact that they will fall post-freeze in a direction based on where the orb was, which can be very annoying to keep track of. Instead, you can follow up with 6C for a full easy combo:

Air Orb hit > j.6C > B Orb > A Dive > 214AC > Orb hits > 6C

The idea being that 214AC hasn't been used yet so you can use it after the first 6C to secure combo stability.

In many cases, proper use of mid-orb hit confirms complete change whether the route will be stable or not. Probably the most common example is:

Backdash (jump) > Air B Orb > Air Backdash > Air Assault > A Dive (you hit the opponent here) > B Blink > Orb Hits > j.6C > B Orb > A Dive > 214AC > 6C / j.6C KD - Occurs at neutral when you set a B orb then dive at an opponent trying to close in. Can also occur off of an air B orb ender if they back tech midscreen. This can also similarly occur from 6C > B Orb Oki into TK A Dive > B Blink (throw OS bait). 

Air A Orb > A Dive > B Blink > 5B (omit if point blank) > 6C or j.6C > etc - Generally occurs when your opponent is reading an air B Orb set, as A Orb > A Dive will punish that read. This can also occur after a B Blink during pressure.

Backdash > Air B Orb > Fastfall > Dashing j.A (air to air) > j.B > j.C > Orb hits > j.6C > etc - A semi-reproduceable example of how to use mid-orb to convert into j.6C

All of the above examples are similar in that if you did NOT convert into j.6C after orb hit, you get a really bad combo instead. Generally the non-optimal conversion involves some bad air combo into air ender, or blink into similar or corner carry. In these examples you generally cannot combo into 214AC / 6C once the orb has actually hit them, outside of the kind of route I explained. Even worse, if you used a blink prior to the orb hit, as is the case of A Dive > B Blink > Orb hit, if you did not go into j.6C then doing a second B Blink to pick up the combo will result in terrible proration, so you're pretty much forced to go for some poverty air combo or Dash C > B DP if you're close enough. (This would be a good example of converting to j.C > land Dash C if you fumbled the pre-orb conversion).

Here's a basic grounded example in which the orb hit actually improves the combo (for once):

Bnb into 6C KD > B Orb > Meaty 2A(hit) > 2B > 2C(1) > 623A > Orb Hit > j.6C > B Orb > A DIve > 214AC > Orb Hit > j.6C KD 

If you went for 2ABC 214AC ignoring the orb hit, you'd actually end up not being able to combo into 6C due to 2A starter, so this example actually shows how properly converting with the orb hit will actually improve your combo. Since you did not use B Blink prior to the first j.6C, you can actually do the same combo but with A Dive > B Blink > Fast Fall > 2C(2) > 6C instead of using 214AC. It does less damage, but is more stable. Note that I've written j.6C here, but 6C can also work. Based on character and specific spacing of the orb, the last can whiff. In my experience, if the first 6C is a j.6C, the final one can be a 6C, but ending in j.6C always works, though annoying. 

There are plenty more examples of such situations that commonly occur mid-match, and I feel that this is probably one of the most telltale signs of an experienced Seth player, because converting from this situations mid-match often requires strong understanding of how long until your orb fires, how close your orb is, and whether or not the orb will track. You have to be able to decide whether to add another 5B before the orb comes, how many air normals before cancelling to j.6C, whether the orb will even hit regardless due to its poor tracking, when exactly to cancel into 623A, etc.

This is pretty much all adlib once the concept of the route has been internalized, and is actually very fun to practice in actual match! You also look really swag when you are able to get those random converts into orb hits.

Mess around in training mode, do things like force function before setting orbs to see how spacing changes things up, etc. The rabbit hole goes extremely deep here, as there are also things like comboing off of Dash C hits from across the screen, converting from A Dive > A DP (> 2B), etc. This basic principle is the most important part though, and something I think we can always constantly improve in.

 

I actually had an entire other section planned in contrast to "The Practical Stuff" where I was going to jot down a lot of my more impractical CMV-tier discoveries, but this post is ridiculously long, so I'll save it for another day. I'm not sure if this will actually help anyone, but hopefully anyone still striving to improve with this character can take something positive away from this post. As always, please follow free to ask me on Twitter for specific questions / advice. Thanks for reading!

 

[LordSpectreX]

This is really cool, thank you for sharing this, some of this I had absolutely no idea about! Though I do have some questions;

Corner Okizeme after B Blink > air B Orb > air backdash 

Is there any specific delays that need to be done? I've been messing around with this a lot but I can't quite make it consistent. Backtech seems to have a LOT more invul time than neutral tech. So finding a sweet spot where you won't get hit by neutral tech DP and still being able to catch backtech is proving quite hard for me. It's not the end of the world, since if you do the early version, the worst you can do is confuse them, which is a lot better than just standing next to them blocking. But you seem to be implying there is a timing that works for both.

I also don't really get the j.B>j.2C>j.214B 'string' part. Are you supposed to delay j.2C after j.B? Cause if I do it as fast as I can, the orb comes out way too late.

 Corner Carry BnBs with Dash C

This is cool, but I've never actually seen a JP player do this combo. Do you have any examples?

 

 

 

[brett_]

This is really cool, thank you for sharing this, some of this I had absolutely no idea about! Though I do have some questions;

Corner Okizeme after B Blink > air B Orb > air backdash 

Is there any specific delays that need to be done? I've been messing around with this a lot but I can't quite make it consistent. Backtech seems to have a LOT more invul time than neutral tech. So finding a sweet spot where you won't get hit by neutral tech DP and still being able to catch backtech is proving quite hard for me. It's not the end of the world, since if you do the early version, the worst you can do is confuse them, which is a lot better than just standing next to them blocking. But you seem to be implying there is a timing that works for both.

I also don't really get the j.B>j.2C>j.214B 'string' part. Are you supposed to delay j.2C after j.B? Cause if I do it as fast as I can, the orb comes out way too late.

 Corner Carry BnBs with Dash C

This is cool, but I've never actually seen a JP player do this combo. Do you have any examples?

 

 

 

@okizeme:

I add a slight delay. Just retested on Hyde and Eltnum, safejumps back as well as neutral air techs into DP, hit comes out if they just block still. Also like you said, in the cases where the j.B doesn't come out, I just kinda block then input a late throw as an OS (throw or throw tech, or block), or j.2C anyways, or adlib etc. Still is a decent situation, like you said.

Generally, if they back tech or neutral tech, they're pretty far away, so j.B > land > run close up > rising j.2C is usually the right timing. You're definitely right about if they forward tech or you someone end up point blank with the j.B though - there needs to be delay. If you're point blank you can technically do falling j.B > rising j.A > j.2C > j.214B, which works, but is obviously terrible if you fuck up (well actually salvageable BUT), and is honestly pretty hard to make the j.B still a safejump just because of having to input the rising j.A. I do believe its possible though. Generally what I do in that kind of scenario is just wait a bit and then j.2C unless i feel confident in the rising j.A. I go for the rising j.A if i have a read they wont DP, otherwise I aim for delayed j.2C. Loses to intentionally delayed DP but yeah. OSes.

 

A lot it is honestly conditioning though, and I end up only doing actual safejump timing maybe 50% of the time just because of conditioning. If you know you dont have to have perfect safejump timing, I will actually often input the backdash EXTREMELY late, to the point where it's basically at the same time that they tech.

 

@corner carry: JP players do do it. I posted an example in that section. It's basically doing a dash C bnb but on the same side, so dash C'ing AWAY from your orb, but lining up the hit so that the orb hits anyways. Actual reproduceable example with full notation: 

VS Yuzu: Midscreen starting positions: 5B > 5C > 5CC > 214AC > 6C > dl B Orb > dl A Dive > dl Dash C > run up > 6C KD. The rest is just some crossup examples mentioned in my earlier post, for fun.

 

You need extremely heavy delay on B orb and A dive to get this kind of ridiculous corner carry. Closer to the corner its a lot easier. When practicing, pay attention to the angle the orb is firing at. You can actually get it to fire COMPLETELY horizontally, which is the goal. Technically this works at ANY screen position if you get that perfect orb angle.

In practicality its very hard to get that angle, but being near the corner lets them bounce back from the Dash C and back into the orb angle even if its at a 30 or 45 degree angle.

Getting them to get hit even with bad orb angles is of course character specific based on the opponents hurt boxes, which is why in my original post I recommended Chaos, who seems to just get hit by some pretty crazy angles. Carmine too.

 

[o Nereus o]

 

 

@corner carry: JP players do do it. I posted an example in that section. It's basically doing a dash C bnb but on the same side, so dash C'ing AWAY from your orb, but lining up the hit so that the orb hits anyways. Actual reproduceable example with full notation: 

VS Yuzu: Midscreen starting positions: 5B > 5C > 5CC > 214AC > 6C > dl B Orb > dl A Dive > dl Dash C > run up > 6C KD. The rest is just some crossup examples mentioned in my earlier post, for fun.

 

You need extremely heavy delay on B orb and A dive to get this kind of ridiculous corner carry. Closer to the corner its a lot easier. When practicing, pay attention to the angle the orb is firing at. You can actually get it to fire COMPLETELY horizontally, which is the goal. Technically this works at ANY screen position if you get that perfect orb angle.

In practicality its very hard to get that angle, but being near the corner lets them bounce back from the Dash C and back into the orb angle even if its at a 30 or 45 degree angle.

Getting them to get hit even with bad orb angles is of course character specific based on the opponents hurt boxes, which is why in my original post I recommended Chaos, who seems to just get hit by some pretty crazy angles. Carmine too.

 

YOOOO that's pretty sick. Gonna definitely practice this and get it down. Good stuff on the video Brett. Also, how do you feel about UNiST Seth so far from the videos? Are you happy that they buffed his j.214A?

[brett_]

YOOOO that's pretty sick. Gonna definitely practice this and get it down. Good stuff on the video Brett. Also, how do you feel about UNiST Seth so far from the videos? Are you happy that they buffed his j.214A?

My thoughts in a nutshell were: wow lots of buffs, but I wish they buffed his neutral instead. I won't complain though. In detail:

His combo routes are fucking NUTS. You basically do whatever you want from any hit now due to B Cmd Throw. One of the main BnB's seems to be:

Stuff > B Blink > FF~Kick > j.6C > B Orb > A Dive > 214AC > (BC >) B Cmd > j.6C > KD

This is such an amazing upgrade for two reasons:

1. You can get a full combo easily while using B Blink early. This is godlike because compare what we have to do currently: 5B > 2C > B Blink > either go into 214AC but then since we used B blink we have to do A dive B DP Dash C, which is obnoxious, limiting, gives us little corner carry, etc. Or we just go into some corner carry with no KD.
2. Because you can fit the FF in, you get a very far orb set that can be BEHIND them, which means your oki can involve an orb crossup, which we cannot do at ALL midscreen right now

 Why do these work? Previously, emphasis on Seth was always having to combo into 214AC > 6C. The reasoning is because 6C is the best way to extend our route potential. BOTH of these are now no longer true. Here's an example of a full combo using zero mid-combo 6Cs:

5ABC > 214AC > Dash C > 214A > B Blink > A Orb > A Dive > B Cmd > j.C (orb hits) > j.6C KD.

both B Cmd > j.6C as well as Fast Fall > j.6C give us multiple ways to go into 6C without having to rely on an early hit 214AC. This means that starting from 2A is now no longer the end of the world, and we're allowed to freeform our routes a lot more. We can still use 214AC for the forced stun as in the first combo example, because it still stuns significantly. The early 214AC was originally only for the extra 2-3 untech frames that let us combo into 6C, which we no longer care about.

Abare is nuts, and I (and everyone else I'm sure) am very happy we now no longer need to tear our hair about 2A starter combos.

The additional force function SMP thing is also very cool and hopefully we get some interesting use out of that. Being able to universally connect Dash C > 214A~X is also very nice, and something that SHOULD have been a thing in this version (it is sorta, but very very specific)

 

Pressurewise, The FF addition is huge, and makes blink pressure a bit more respected. I still think its gimmicky and not the best solution but I'll take it. the A dive change (bigger hitbox) is also very huge here, as we can now finally for the love of god do 6C > 214A on the entire cast (I believe). See my Seth document for the table of 6C > 214A interaction in UNIEL, which is a complete mess. He really needed 6C to be good, as its basically worthless in UNIEL. It's still not even THAT good, but it gives us

1. An overhead (though quite slow)
2. An additional way to punish shielding!! (very huge)
3. A way to punish up-back
4. An additional way to transition into blink
5. A mediocre (but still applicable) way to frame trap.

It's currently very hard to punish shielding once you're out of cmd throw threaten range, as you need to stop your combo in a wack ass place and either full screen run up shield, or assault. Its not like you can't 6C in UNIEL, but on block you're kind of fucked if they know what they're doing.

 

Neutral-wise, not as much help as I would have liked, but 5C buff and fastfall are okay. The extra health is much appreciated, and the throw damage is also cute. The fix to the input-buffer bug that plagued half of the things Seth wanted to do is probably the actual best thing about UNIST, IMO. 

The removal of EX Cmd Throw side-swap is actualy nice as you dont have to use the retarded methods to create the ideal UB setup, though it means many of my weird EX Cmd Throw setups will no longer work.

 

Things I wanted, that they didn't address: 

1. Less knockback after throw - it's still stupid that you cant really meaty well off of a throw. 
2. Cmd throw distance - the fact that dash 2AA Cmd throw doesn't work without walking a bit makes me sad.
3. Cmd throw input - only character in the game with a tyrant rave input. Even though I'm a GG player I still find it obnoxious because it just makes crap like A Blink > Cmd throw way stupider than it needs to be for a game where they clearly tried to make everything executionally easy.
4. Give his 623s more active frames - being able to space them out and make them slightly less minus would have been really fun, but thats really not the case
5. Backdash landing recovery - I don't think anyone would say the landing recovery is important to keeping this character balanced. Instead, it just forces us to go through yet more unneccessary hurdles, like whiffing while landing, or just making overall less useful than it should be.
6. Fastfall recovery - Yeah there's a kick now, but fastfall itself is really cool, and I just wish the landing recovery was reduced by 3-4 frames to make it more legit / multi-purpose. 
7. 1hit EX Dive - landing the 1 hit is cool, but we should be allowed to full combo off of it if we do get that weird hit. It's a pretty big waste, even though it LOOKS like something huge we should be able to capitalize on.

 

 

[LordSpectreX]

@oki 

Oh I see, you have to dash forward, that makes sense, thanks.

@corner carry

Thanks for the video, but I'm still having trouble getting this consistently, do you delay the 214A, 21[4B] and Dash C at all? I'm trying various timings but nothing that works too consistently.

Also regarding the rising j.A OS, you said it's bad if you hit, can't you just mash j.C instead of j.B? Not only will it pick up air hits, but rising j.A>j.C>j.B combos on standing characters where j.A would hit in the first place (so not Linne).

[brett_]

@oki 

Oh I see, you have to dash forward, that makes sense, thanks.

@corner carry

Thanks for the video, but I'm still having trouble getting this consistently, do you delay the 214A, 21[4B] and Dash C at all? I'm trying various timings but nothing that works too consistently.

Also regarding the rising j.A OS, you said it's bad if you hit, can't you just mash j.C instead of j.B? Not only will it pick up air hits, but rising j.A>j.C>j.B combos on standing characters where j.A would hit in the first place (so not Linne).

Yes I think I wrote in the notation: you need to delay the A Dive as well as the B Blink, if you really want the exact combo I posted. The closer to the corner you are, the more lenience you have on timing. If you're doing it from ~3/4 distance, its 100% consistent. Further out it depends on your timing / char hurtbox. The example in the video is a range where I rarely go for it in actual match, as I only land it 30% of the time. Sometimes I do so anyways, and generally internally Kreygasm when I land it and no one knows what I'm talking about Kappa

With regards to the j.A OS: Yes you are correct that j.A > j.C does work on standing. I don't really like doing j.A > j.C in the case where you hit them air to air though, since immediate j.A > j.C means the j.B timing is a bit strict. Based on height, There are also more situations that make that j.ACB followup a lot harder to combo off of. It's a lot easier to consistently get j.ABC 2C than j.ACB 2C in my experience, aside from like say, Waldstein, where very late j.C actually ruins the combo.

I generally will sacrifice the j.A > j.B whiff over combo consistency because rising j.A hitting standing occurs maybe 2% of the time. 

 

 

[Icekin]

Can someone enlighten me in how you deal with a Seth player repeatedly doing (214X > 4/6B > j.214A) * n. I don't understand why Seth can't just do that shit all day until it hits.

No button will punish it, shielding does nothing since it's two hits, I can't jump at him and hit him out of the sky before he dives again. The only thing I can think of that works is VO. What am I missing?

This is assuming you aren't playing someone like Gordeau who has a big "Fuck You; 2C" move.

[brett_]

17 hours ago, Icekin said:

Can someone enlighten me in how you deal with a Seth player repeatedly doing (214X > 4/6B > j.214A) * n. I don't understand why Seth can't just do that shit all day until it hits.

No button will punish it, shielding does nothing since it's two hits, I can't jump at him and hit him out of the sky before he dives again. The only thing I can think of that works is VO. What am I missing?

This is assuming you aren't playing someone like Gordeau who has a big "Fuck You; 2C" move.

Please refer to my Seth Notes which are posted on the front page. There's an extensive explanation on how to deal with it, listing both universal and character specific answer.

 

You can definitely jump and hit him. You can backdash or forward dash and punish his landing recovery. You can air shield and falling j.A punish him. 

If you have read the notes thoroughly and need further assistance feel free to ask.

[Icekin]

Maybe there's something wrong with my browser, but for some reason, any link in this thread just reopens the page it was posted in, including the link to said notes. Is there another way you could link me to them?

I hadn't thought about Air shield. Backdash/Forward dash seems like the least risky option. Thanks for the tip.

[o Nereus o]

3 minutes ago, Icekin said:

Maybe there's something wrong with my browser, but for some reason, any link in this thread just reopens the page it was posted in, including the link to said notes. Is there another way you could link me to them?

I hadn't thought about Air shield. Backdash/Forward dash seems like the least risky option. Thanks for the tip.

When Dustloop was updated.. it messed with the links that were already on here..

[brett_]

6 minutes ago, Icekin said:

Any link in this thread just reopens the page it was posted in, including the link to said notes. Is there another way you could link 

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1xCt8Ps5QsUUEbBM3QoiyOzDfqUHNFVtq47vfROkOiSg/mobilebasic

 

Section in question is near the bottom. A few chars might be incomplete, what char do you use?

 

Also yeahbackdash is the cleanest method, though it will not punish blink into orb or air backdash. For hard punishes, most chars have an OS, as listed in my notes. 

[brett_]

Another interesting post air-tech unblockable option I've started experimenting with. Feel free to try it out in your matches and give me some feedback:

To refresh your memory, the current one I recommend and have been using is

Corner Combo > B Blink (end of combo) > B Orb > Air Backdash > Opponent Techs > falling safejump j.B > (opponent blocks) > Rising j.2C > (Orb) > B Dive > etc.

There are so many good advantages to this setup, and in actual match even against strong players I find I have over a 90% success rate with this.

That being said, there are two main issues with the setup:

1) Variable tech timing - if the opponent no techs, late techs, or ground techs, you may mess up the timing on the j.B, causing it to whiff. This can obviously cause problems. Generally if I feel like the opponent is going to no tech or something, I'll delay my air backdash so that my j.B comes out later.

 

2) Shielding - if they shield the rising j.2C, you're kind of screwed since j.2C shielded just leaves you hanging there for a while. Its even worse since j.2C can be shielded crouching. The best answer to this is either to do a mixup, or go for a throw, after the falling j.B, if you sniff a shield. Fortunately since you're massively plus after falling j.B, opponents very rarely do this instinctually, but players who understand how this UB setup works will sniff out it pretty easily.

 

The following setup is only slightly different, but introduces some solutions to the above issues, as well as introducing new problems (heh). I wouldn't call this a BETTER version of the above, but it is an alternative with different pro/cons:

Corner Combo > B Blink (end combo) > B orb > Fast Fall > Dashing "meaty" rising j.2C > recover > j.A > (Orb) > B Dive UB.

As you can see, there are quite a few differences. The biggest difference is that you are no longer doing a safejump. Instead, you are fast falling then meatying with a rising j.2C. This obviously means you are vulnerable to DPs, wakeup CS, veil off (I think?), backdash, etc. However, this definitely does solve the issue of variable tech timing! Since you fastfall, you can basically react to the tech animation and then time your j.2C properly (If they no tech, meaty j.2C > B Orb is a free UB). 

Since you are doing a falling j.A into B dive, if they shield the j.A, you actually are still at advantage after the B Orb. On a shielded j.A, there is enough time for the opponent to jump, but then get caught air blocking the B Orb, in which case you can air unblockable them! On a non-shielded blocked j.A, there is a gap only small enough for the orb to hit them out of jump startup, or to veil off, though again, easily baited by just doing nothing after j.A. There is no gap between B Orb and B dive, as a result. 

As you can see, this setup does easily address the two awkward issues with the initial setup. It does, however, have some new weaknesses which are pretty problematic:

1) The Gap between j.2C > j.A - it's a pretty large gap, one that you can easily jump out of as soon as you see you blocked Seth's j.2C. A bit problematic, though if the opponent has no air options, this isn't a very good situation to be left in. Seth should generally be able to react (or OS) to the jump out after whiffing j.A and anti air unless the opponent reacts quickly with an air normal that can hit seth. In some situations, Seth's j.A can hit the opponent out, though it is kind of spacing specific.

2) Shielding the initial j.2C - still the same problem, though way riskier. Wakeup shield is even more risky than sheidling after the safejump j.B, so I think this is a little bit less to be worried about. If they're throwing in wakeup shield to deal with these setups, you can just do normal oki and get some good reward.

3) I use the word "meaty" because in a lot of cases the j.2C is not going to be a perfect meaty. In my testing though, it will generally beat out most antiairs and high hitting medium speed moves (tested against Gordeau 2C, for example). However, this setup in practicality is very timing specific, and so especially against opponents with a high hitting 5A like Seth, it can be tricky not to get mashed out. Luckily there are plenty of other post air tech setups you can go for instead to keep the opponents honest, and its pretty hard for that opponent to really tell that you're going for the j.2C meaty. You're basically running into their body and the j.2C isn't reactable, so its not very realistic for them to mash buttons here.

4) This only works if they dont forward tech. If they forward tech, this setup totally doesnt work, though due to the normal airbackdash j.B setup, forward teching is very risky anyways. I find that most opponents who are aware of Seth's corner options tend not to forward tech very often.

Caveats: I haven't tested this setup thoroughly on every character. It is pretty finnicky and hard to get your gaps right against certain characters, especially skinny ones. The biggest issue you will encounter is your j.A > Orb gap being too big, which will cause them to be able to jump, airblock the Orb, then your B dive will whiff. The best way to adjust this is to delay your j.2C meaty slightly. On some characters, j.A will also whiff if they crouch, which will cause some problems. You can time the j.A so it covers both, though it may leave holes in other places. Replacing j.2C > j.A with j.2C > j.2C will also resolve this issue, though you're against susceptible to shielding as mentioned above.

 

Try it out, and let me know how it works for you guys.

 

Lastly, here's an updated version similar to above which is definitely a lot easier to do, more intimidating for the opponent, and a bit trickier to block:

Corner Combo > B Blink (end combo) > B orb > Fast Fall > TK air assault > j.C > j.6C > (Orb) B Dive 

Haven't tried this one in actual matches but assuming they dont shield the initial j.C, it seems really nice. Dont have to deal with crouching or anything, plenty of blockstun means the gaps will always be good, and j.6C automatically catches jump out. In addition, the j.6C is an overhead hit, which can catch some people off guard.

 

 

 

[WindGodDude]

Hey I started a discord group for Seth. Let's talk some tech

https://discord.gg/0pJc02MZsUACQItK

[The 27th Oath]

Can I post a match video of mine here for some help ?

[Dr. Cheesesteak]

On 8/6/2017 at 4:29 PM, The 27th Oath said:

Can I post a match video of mine here for some help ?

I'd hope so