[UNIEL] News & Gameplay Discussion

[Dusk Thanatos]

I just had someone confirm for me that wakeup throw protection is indeed in this game, ala Melty (meaty throws will whiff)

 

If your opponent doesn't have command throws, blocking on wakeup is always going to be your safest option

[kazukifafner]

So that's why trying to time a throw on wakeup kept seeing me punished for it -_-

[LionHeartx]

yeah I didnt notice until I tried a throw setup after air tech with Seth. it kinda sucks since they can still throw you but you can always just blow up their throw mashing with assault. 

[drzero7]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OQIJJkDLbKs

 

This is interesting. Every char in this game have kara throw, and you can throw tech with command grabs instead of another regular throw.

[Avion]

also to note that any "kara throw" with 6b is actually a dash cancel 6b into throw, the early 6b frames being dash cancelable to make the A+B dash easier.

[iloveibuki]

Some noob questions about defense and shield blocking.

 

An opponent jumps towards you. You shield block to increase their landing recovery if they hit your shield, and this prevents them from doing anything until they land and recover so you can punish them? Can they recover in the air before they land but it's just slower?

 

If they jump towards you and bait out your shield by not hitting any buttons will you still be recovering from shielding when they land and be free to their grab or low hit? If so is it a waste to shield block if they jump towards you? Also is it possible to do an early shield block in reaction to a jump in or should you just never shield when they jump?

 

Is shield blocking the best answer to assault and then try to punish or should you try to get a counter off of it somehow for an enhanced stun combo? Based on reacting to assault during a block string and not having a lot of time.

 

If you're standing still next to an opponent who has vorpal, will them using CS let a quick attack from them hit you before you block even if you start holding block after their cs animation starts? I think cs gives them like 5 extra frames? Does it really stop time for you (Not letting you block in this situation?) or does it only pause your recovery for more frames in a different situation like whiffing etc.

[Sashi]

Having most air moves shielded means that they can't cancel their attack as well as having extra landing recovery.

 

If you shield and they don't do anything, they can land and punish your whiffed shield and GRD break you.

 

If you can dp, you should dp. Dps are great.

 

CS stops time for both characters.

[Icekin]

Shielding beats jump attacks, empty jump + grab beats shielding. Since most people are recklessly assaulting atm because they think this is Blazblue, shielding is extremely strong, but it has it's weaknesses.

[NeoStrayCat]

Quickie news here, though we know Aksys will be bringing UNIEL over, but it seems EU/PAL players won't be left out, NISA seems to be bringing this over (along with AH3:LM, but that's different, has own board, etc.), they will also be Retail/Digital there as well. Nothing much except for a 2015 release time for UNIEL there.

 

http://nisamerica.co...8072014v2pb.pdf

[Istillduno]

Quickie news here, though we know Aksys will be bringing UNIEL over, but it seems EU/PAL players won't be left out, NISA seems to be bringing this over (along with AH3:LM, but that's different, has own board, etc.), they will also be Retail/Digital there as well. Nothing much except for a 2015 release time for UNIEL there.

 

http://nisamerica.co...8072014v2pb.pdf

Eh, with how the EU NISA store is it'll probably still be cheaper to import the American version even if Customs and Parcelforce tag team your wallet with bs "handling fees".

[NeoStrayCat]

Eh, with how the EU NISA store is it'll probably still be cheaper to import the American version even if Customs and Parcelforce tag team your wallet with bs "handling fees".

You do know that its not sold exclusively at the NISA EU Store (since they'll have it in shops across the EU region anyways), from what I see there, all they have for now is LE's. But yeah, importing and all that, anyways, just giving a heads up though just for those who are gonna want it there anyways.

[TSHKN]

I was in the lab testing stuff found that Gordeau can tech throw with his command grab like Waldstein in Coopa vid.

[LitchiFayeBling]

looking into damage scaling, it seems like repeated moves will give the rest of the combo proration.

 

here's my tests with an eltnum combo. http://i.imgur.com/fdeA8R0.jpg

 

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Counter hit/high counter do not add damage or change any damage values. it only adds hitstun to every hit of the combo it seems like.

 

same with chain shift, which seems to add more hitstun than counter hit/high counter.

[Tari]

looking into damage scaling, it seems like repeated moves will give the rest of the combo proration.

 

here's my tests with an eltnum combo. http://i.imgur.com/fdeA8R0.jpg

 

----

 

Counter hit/high counter do not add damage or change any damage values. it only adds hitstun to every hit of the combo it seems like.

 

same with chain shift, which seems to add more hitstun than counter hit/high counter.

I don't believe chain shift adds any hitstun to a combo? It just makes it so you have no recovery if you chain shift mid combo (ala rapid cancel). Didn't bother double checking, but it sounds a bit strange.

With enough GRD, you get longer vorpal carryover, but it does not appear to affect untech or hitstun.

======

On counterhits:

Counter and High Counter do not add 1.5 or 2 times hitstun to your entire combo (see two paragraphs below). They do add hitstun to the first hit of a combo, and they do remove the assault penalty on overheads, as well apply any special counterhit properties to the first move of a combo.

Counter and High Counter also have different effects on airborne and grounded opponents. Against airborne opponents, they extend untech time by 1.5 and 2 times, respectively (haven't actually checked to make sure it's 1.5x and 2x, but it's a very sizable amount that generally seems to just make the opponent ground tech). Against grounded opponents, Counter and High Counter have the same effects as each other. They seem to add between 0 frames (ie: Sion 5A) and 3 frames (ie: Yuzu 5C) of extra hitstun. There may be moves that add more than 3 frames.

Counter and High Counter do, in fact, add very slight amounts of extra hitstun to an entire combo, but the amount added appears to be based on how much extra hitstun the opening move of the combo generates on a grounded counterhit, not an aerial one. For example, a long combo for Yuzu that starts from 5A CH (which generates 2 frames of extra hitstun) ends with the opponent teching 1 frame later than usual. The same combo started from a 5C CH (which generates 3 extra frames of hitstun) ends with the opponent teching 2 frames later than usual. It's not a huge amount. It does exist. There seem to be moves that generate 0 frames of extra hitstun (again, Eltnum 5A) on CH, so I don't actually know what the rule for this is. There may be move levels involved, but I'm too lazy to look into that. There is definitely some sort of ruleset being followed here, though.

Multi-hit moves do not benefit from the effects of Counter or High Counter, because only the first hit of a multi-hit move that connects with the opponent will get the untech/hitstun benefit. Having said that, there are likely multi-hit moves in the game with special counterhit properties that circumvent this limitation. I haven't looked into it too much.

Counter and High Counter have no effect on hitstop.

There is SMP in this game on specials, though perhaps not on all specials. It's hard to tell without spending way too much time.

If anyone wants the raw frame data for this stuff, feel free to ask. I've been wondering how the counterhit system in this game works for weeks, and I'm still not really sure. Only started looking at frame data for it in the past few hours, though.

I can also post a more extensive list of system mechanics, but I think most people understand the general system mechanics at this point.

 

 

 

edit: edited out the smp info, since it appears to be incorrect (thanks, errol)

[Justice7541]

Easy way to test if chain shift really extends hitstun would be to do a special/gatling chain that doesn't combo normally then do the same thing except chain shifting between the two moves.

[Tempered]

I forgot what combo I tested it with but im sure CS does extend scaling.

[Tari]

I forgot what combo I tested it with but im sure CS does extend scaling.

 

Untech time scaling? Because I don't get any extra untech on hits done after CS between having 0/3/6 GRD. If there's extra scaling, I guess it applies to any CS?

 

 

edit: Yuzu 2C > 5C without CS has 35 frames of untech, whereas 2C > CS > 5C has 36 frames of untech with any amount of GRD. Maybe you get +1 frame? lol. Doing a wallbounce combo into 5A with or without CS, though, has the same amount of untech time.

[Errol]

> as well as change the properties of the first move so it doesn't suffer any SMP penalty to untech time when it is used again in the same combo. The latter case is most evident with Eltnum's 236B (3 hits) > 236C combo routes.

 

this doesn't seem to be true with Orie's 623A. 623A CS combos die immediately if you 623A again.

[Tari]

 

Easy way to test if chain shift really extends hitstun would be to do a special/gatling chain that doesn't combo normally then do the same thing except chain shifting between the two moves.

 

 

Tried it with Eltnum 236B(3) > 236C > 5B > 5[C], with a chainshift between 5B and 5C. It didn't seem to work there, but I don't know if that gap is too long or if I just suck at timing chain shifts. Human error is too influential in my test. :P
 

> as well as change the properties of the first move so it doesn't suffer any SMP penalty to untech time when it is used again in the same combo. The latter case is most evident with Eltnum's 236B (3 hits) > 236C combo routes.
 
this doesn't seem to be true with Orie's 623A. 623A CS combos die immediately if you 623A again.

 
Might be a special property on those specials, then. I'll edit that.
 
I am considering looking into it more, since 236B(1 hit) > EX Gunshot > 236B(2 hits) has increased untech time when the initial 236B is a CH, but 236B(1) > EX Gunshot > 236A has no extra untech on CH starter. Might be reduced SMP penalty, as well, not really sure. Could also be because Orie 623A is multi-hit.
 
 
I would appreciate it if other people could chime in on their ideas behind counterhits and/or correct anything I wrote, because the system isn't very well explained.

[Errol]

Might be a special property on those specials, then. I'll edit that.

 

I am considering looking into it more, since 236B(1 hit) > EX Gunshot > 236B(2 hits) has increased untech time when the initial 236B is a CH, but 236B(1) > EX Gunshot > 236A has no extra untech on CH starter. Might be reduced SMP penalty, as well, not really sure. Could also be because Orie 623A is multi-hit.

 

 

I would appreciate it if other people could chime in on their ideas behind counterhits and/or correct anything I wrote, because the system isn't very well explained.

 

Yeah, I appreciate your looking into it, because I am interested too.

 

All I really know is that damage proration and untech proration are different beasts.

 

Each move definitely has a different value for starter untech time.  Counter hits seem to all around, like, set your starter untech time higher. You become capable of doing longer combos.  But, it doesn't make everything equal. even on CH, Orie 2c4c doesn't lead to combos that go as far as 5c4c or 4c raw. OTOH, 2c has better *DAMAGE* proration than 5c or 4c (as you can see by doing 2c5c or 4c5c and comparing the damage of the 5c).

 

each move has a different untech proration mid combo too, afaik.

 

Each button seems to have at least some *damage* SMP. Even if a move has damage smp I don't think it is guaranteed to have untech SMP. I think eltnums little 66C>22B loops work because there is damage smp but probably not untech smp. orie's 623A definitely has untech SMP. Some other specials do too.  I don't think Orie's j214B has untech SMP - though maybe it does. It probably has a bit of damage smp, since every move does AFAIK.

 

but the 'damage smp' in this game seems usually pretty weak and only applies a bit to every hit after the 2nd hit. often does not affect the optimal combo route, though sometimes it does. if a move does a good chunk more damage than your other options, you gotta have like 5-6 + remaining moves to offset the one shot damage difference.  So damage smp seems to mostly matter at the beginning of a combo.

 

So I don't really know any for sure effect of counter hits, other than they can enable longer combos, and extra untech time mostly on specific moves.

[LitchiFayeBling]

Didn't know there was more discussion going on, forgot to check back.

Pretty sure special moves have untech SMP. Can't do 2 gordeau Rekka-Rekka series early in a combo and get a normal ender. Same with Hyde's fireball explode.

 

 

 

here's what i used to test CS adding hitstun to the whole combo

 

eltnum

6b 2b 2c j[c] wjA 5b 5[c] 421b etc. they tech before 5[c]

CH 6b 2b 2c j[c] 5b 5[c] 421b etc. works fine.

6b CS  2b 2c j[c] wjA 5b 5[c] 421b etc. works fine.

6b 2b CS 2c j[c] wjA 5b 5[c] 421b etc. works fine.

6b 2b 2c CS j[c] wjA 5b 5[c] 421b etc. works fine.

 

here's what i used to assume CS adds more hitstun to a combo than CH

CH 2a 2a 2c j[c] 5b 5[c] 421b etc. they tech before 5[c]

2a CS 2a 2c j[c] 5b 5[c] 421b etc. works fine

2a 2a 2c CS j[c] 5b 5[c] 421b etc. works fine. 2a 2a CS 2c is hard to link

 

 

it might just be that CH adds hitstun based on the starting hit though.

[Tari]

Damage and untech proration are almost guaranteed to be unrelated. There's this crazy anti-fuzzy system in the game that nerfs damage dealt from rising overheads normals if the defender is hit while holding down-back (say, while they're in recovery from whiffing a move), but doesn't nerf untech time. The damage nerf from that mechanic is huge. It looks like it immediately applies an extra P2 to the first move of 0.40, and that the proration value scales downwards either for each subsequent hit or over time. Or there's some other crazy non-proration-related explanation for it, but either way, it doesn't affect untech time.
 

Didn't know there was more discussion going on, forgot to check back.
Pretty sure special moves have untech SMP. Can't do 2 gordeau Rekka-Rekka series early in a combo and get a normal ender. Same with Hyde's fireball explode.



here's what i used to test CS adding hitstun to the whole combo

eltnum
6b 2b 2c j[c] wjA 5b 5[c] 421b etc. they tech before 5[c]
CH 6b 2b 2c j[c] 5b 5[c] 421b etc. works fine.
6b CS 2b 2c j[c] wjA 5b 5[c] 421b etc. works fine.
6b 2b CS 2c j[c] wjA 5b 5[c] 421b etc. works fine.
6b 2b 2c CS j[c] wjA 5b 5[c] 421b etc. works fine.

here's what i used to assume CS adds more hitstun to a combo than CH
CH 2a 2a 2c j[c] 5b 5[c] 421b etc. they tech before 5[c]
2a CS 2a 2c j[c] 5b 5[c] 421b etc. works fine
2a 2a 2c CS j[c] 5b 5[c] 421b etc. works fine. 2a 2a CS 2c is hard to link


it might just be that CH adds hitstun based on the starting hit though.

Still looking into this, but I can confirm that CS adding hitstun is not an Eltnum only thing. Finally found a combo on Yuzu that works with CS only.

On Eltnum's combo, it looks like you get 2 extra frames of untech, which is higher than the previous number I saw. Still hoping to find out if there's a standard for how many frames you get.

[Justice7541]

This game doesn't even have rising overheads and you can't fuzzy the recovery of your opponent's moves. I'm not sure what you're talking about. Moves may have extra proration added on the way up just like some have extra proration if they hit at max range.

[SoWL]

This is no Wald infinite, but still worth bringing up, I believe. Sorry if it already has been.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4iFzIKs5S24

[Tari]

 

This game doesn't even have rising overheads and you can't fuzzy the recovery of your opponent's moves. I'm not sure what you're talking about. Moves may have extra proration added on the way up just like some have extra proration if they hit at max range.

 

Should've said 'rising normals,' sorry. I used the term 'rising overheads,' because that's what the system appears to be designed to punish.

 

It's not a proration on rising moves, it's a damage scaling system that only kicks in when the player being hit happens to be holding down-back when hit by a rising normal. It also affects Eltnum's j.[C], due to the way j.[C] forces her to rise, even when the Eltnum player uses the move as an actual overhead.

It's likely a leftover system that was designed before they stripped rising overheads out of the game completely.

 

 

 

Proration on a max-range hit sounds like a move-specific property, not a system mechanic.