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[UNIEL] News & Gameplay Discussion

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Until now triggering cvo within the combo listed these numbers

 

Yuzuriha= 5700

 

Seth=5900

 

Carmine=6000

 

Orie=6000

 

Linne=6300

 

Phonon=6700

 

Hilda=6700

 

Akatsuki=6800

 

Hyde=7000

What do these numbers mean? I've seen CVO combos for Phonon that did more damage than that. Also I would find it surprising that there would be such a disparity between characters.

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seth is perhaps not able to do over 5900 damage in cvo and that worries me

 

most of you cast last 6000 easily, but he has been in this room with effort

 

He has also been able to do Viel off combos before cross viel off was even a thing. So even if so it's not a problem. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BB-BZAv6xYc

also seth has reset combos and his mixup so there really is no need to be worried about the damage. Once more people get more time with it they may find a better route with more damage.

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this and a list of damage using the new system cvo (bursting the bar in the middle of the combo) and not bursting before you even start the combos. I saw 8.5 with phonon, but does not count because it not activated vei of inside combo. if someone found a greater harm to those I listed, please correct me, but I've been following all the training videos and versus so far. sorry for the bad english rs

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I'm glad it's Seth who's top tier in this version, he's by far the best to watch, love them flashy combos.

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Its a bit too early for saying he's top, but he's definitely better.

Agreed.. he's much better but i feel like it's too early.

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So like, I'm several weeks late to this discussion, but Merkava is more or less the same character with quality of life buffs. Still seems very strong. He still plays neutral the same way, which was his biggest strength. His pressure is the same, 2B and dash B buffs help make confirms more consistent. Damage is more or less the same, even if it's barely nerfed it's not like he lived and died off damage. I've already seen some new routes dealing more though, so whatever, damage isn't what I'm worried about. Flight works the same, worms got easier to set up, he can still convert the same, etc.

Good character. It's worth thinking about what made a character good, bad, or even busted and then evaluating if they can still perform the same way. Like Gord for example, the things that made him good still exist, he's probably strong. The things that made him busted were his ability to RPS you on defense with all the invuln and all the low proration, and the grab range was silly in certain situations. He lost that, so he's probably "normalized" along with the rest of the strong characters. Similarly with Carmine, the things that made him good are still there, but the left/right 50/50 nonsense and the explosive damage got taken away, so again he's more "normal" in line with the strength levels of the cast. For a low tier like Seth, I mean, he was already good at murdering people once he got a hit, the low health and inconsistency on confirms really made him hard to perform with. Oh look, they gave him better ways to confirm and health. Neato. He's still really similar though, so I'd expect his power to again be more "normal" in how things work.

Seems like FB's balance philosophy lately has been to make very minor changes and to try to condense tiers into certain power levels. Like, I'd expect the tiers to look similarly in UNIST to UNiEL with the exception of some swaps and slight bumps up and down. There are a few exceptions (what the hell is going on with Byakuya), but that's the gist. 

A lot of people might not be aware of this, but the tier list for UNiEL towards the end probably looked way different than what most people think based on the play around console release. It wasn't uncommon to see Eltnum in the #3 slot with Hyde even possibly being in top 5. When the game became optimized and people figured out advanced defense/offense there was some wiggle room in there.

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So like, I'm several weeks late to this discussion, but Merkava is more or less the same character with quality of life buffs. Still seems very strong. He still plays neutral the same way, which was his biggest strength. His pressure is the same, 2B and dash B buffs help make confirms more consistent. Damage is more or less the same, even if it's barely nerfed it's not like he lived and died off damage. I've already seen some new routes dealing more though, so whatever, damage isn't what I'm worried about. Flight works the same, worms got easier to set up, he can still convert the same, etc.

Good character. It's worth thinking about what made a character good, bad, or even busted and then evaluating if they can still perform the same way. Like Gord for example, the things that made him good still exist, he's probably strong. The things that made him busted were his ability to RPS you on defense with all the invuln and all the low proration, and the grab range was silly in certain situations. He lost that, so he's probably "normalized" along with the rest of the strong characters. Similarly with Carmine, the things that made him good are still there, but the left/right 50/50 nonsense and the explosive damage got taken away, so again he's more "normal" in line with the strength levels of the cast. For a low tier like Seth, I mean, he was already good at murdering people once he got a hit, the low health and inconsistency on confirms really made him hard to perform with. Oh look, they gave him better ways to confirm and health. Neato. He's still really similar though, so I'd expect his power to again be more "normal" in how things work.

Seems like FB's balance philosophy lately has been to make very minor changes and to try to condense tiers into certain power levels. Like, I'd expect the tiers to look similarly in UNIST to UNiEL with the exception of some swaps and slight bumps up and down. There are a few exceptions (what the hell is going on with Byakuya), but that's the gist. 

A lot of people might not be aware of this, but the tier list for UNiEL towards the end probably looked way different than what most people think based on the play around console release. It wasn't uncommon to see Eltnum in the #3 slot with Hyde even possibly being in top 5. When the game became optimized and people figured out advanced defense/offense there was some wiggle room in there.

I saw Eltnum was at least considered 4th, but could do 3rd depending on the matchup. What was the general consensus near the end of UNiEL?

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In UNIEL the strongest tools are ranged and versatile normals and mixup potential. It can be seen that the better character have these tools, with some exceeding at either.

In UNIEL[st] there's now Cross Veil Off, a mechanic that is a game changer because it's just so strong and good for characters like Hyde, who didnt have this much potential with meter in UNIEL. For a character that barely needs meter to enforce his gameplan and can convert easily off most confirms (think of P4U2 Narukami), this is a huge buff! To put things into perspective he can confirm into 6k off 6B, his most threatening normal. This considerably makes his katame (pressure) that much scarier. I personally believe Hyde is a very strong character in this version, not only because of this but he's been buffed in other areas and barely nerfed in a single not-so-useful move.

So yea, Cross Veil Off is a new strength in the game and I'm eager to see what characters remain the same or change by benefiting greatly from it.

Edited by Tong

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I saw Eltnum was at least considered 4th, but could do 3rd depending on the matchup. What was the general consensus near the end of UNiEL?

 

I'm not entirely sure, I don't know enough Japanese to navigate arounf their side of the internet and find things. I just know some general stuff like Wald didn't change much so he moved slightly down, Hyde got better at being Hyde and he hit like a monster truck so he went up, Carmine shot up with all the damage and oki optimization, etc. Console release and the year or so span of time after gave people the chance to just get really good at situations and optimization. That and people just being better at neutral helped, it was funny how a year ago I thought "how do some characters fight these big buttons?" and now I'm seeing players so good at neutral they just blow through them.

If you want a better answer I can ask around but that's a lot of effort for very little. I'm not too worried about the exact tier list personally, it's just easier to illustrate my point of things go past the surface level or the understandings of a period of time. There's also wonky things I'm not sure how they worked out. Like Vatista in theory land is contender for best character but in actual play she's so difficult and weird it's hard to back that up or explain why her winrates are so poor. We had that happen in Persona with SLab, thought she could be busted but she kept getting blown up, then BKen happened and suddenly 2 of the top players from Japan and America are pushing that character up.

Also, the wording on saying Eltnum could be 3rd "depending on the MU" makes no sense. Character tier positions relate to the accumulation of their MUs vs the entire cast, not in a singular MU. The wording you used really confuses me.

Edited by Anne

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I don't recall hearing about the removal of any of the left-right 50/50s. Are those actually gone? The way they worked was baked into the way the game handled projectiles, so unless they actually went and changed the code for projectiles specifically, I don't see why those would be gone.

 

Hyde is an interesting point of study for tier lists, on a related note. While he started out being in high-B/low-A on the lists, it was already widely agreed that his corner pressure was one of the best in the game. It's quite likely that his slow rise on the tier lists was due to people figuring out how to play midscreen versus the large buttons of the top couple characters. Once that was taken care of, Hyde's ability to convert almost any hit into a corner knockdown really meant you had to play his game most of the time.

 

On a different note, Hilda has seen some ridiculous shifts in her position on the tier lists, and I suspect her position is probably going to keep swinging around for a while yet.

Edited by Tari

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I was informed the left right nonsense was gone from some people who are usually right and keep up to this, and I haven't seen it even after the usual super set up, so I assumed they were correct. For all I know it could still exist and it's just been limited on how it could be set up? Or I could just be wrong.

I remember around console launch I thought Hilda was garbage, and a lot of lists had her on lower mid, then after a few months she was upper mid or even pushing up into A tier, then she settled back down in upper mid. Her design is super linear and limited so her placement just ends up being meta dependent.

Edited by Anne

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I don't recall hearing about the removal of any of the left-right 50/50s. Are those actually gone?

I was informed the left right nonsense was gone from some people who are usually right and keep up to this, and I haven't seen it even after the usual super set up, so I assumed they were correct. For all I know it could still exist and it's just been limited on how it could be set up? Or I could just be wrong.

I'll share what I know of this matter...
I haven't read anyone confirming that "hyouri" is totally gone, but comments say that it's more difficult to do now.
Apparently the side switching happens a little later now. Meaning: Even if the opponent crosses over, you now have more time to block while still facing forward.

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I'll share what I know of this matter...
I haven't read anyone confirming that "hyouri" is totally gone, but comments say that it's more difficult to do now.
Apparently the side switching happens a little later now. Meaning: Even if the opponent crosses over, you now have more time to block while still facing forward.

Ah, that makes sense. I wonder how much worse the actual mix up is then.

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Huh, interesting. I wonder what they actually changed. Maybe you can just block projectiles in both directions for a while?

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Huh, interesting. I wonder what they actually changed. Maybe you can just block projectiles in both directions for a while?

I'm not familiar with carmine stuff, but in UNI, as I understand it, you can always block projectiles by pressing away from the projectile. Meaning that if a projectile is behind you, you can block it by holding forward, or by holding backwards.

On that note, Orie's left/right mixup is not really mixup. In a similar manner, once someone is in the air, you can block by holding 4, even if they cross you up. if they cross you up, you can block by holding 4 OR 6. Therefore the only way you can actually mixup with orie's j2C is by doing it, landing and hitting 2a, or doing j2C>J214B(cross back over to the front). landing and hitting 2a cannot be blocked by holding 4. j2C > j214B can be blocked by holding 4, regardless of whether you end up to the left or right.

So anything to do with carmine, would have to be something like - projectile hits you because you are holding 6 and carmine is actually in front of you and not behind you - or carmine crosses over and hits you because you are holding 4(now forward).  the bigger the gap between the projectile hitting and whatever hitting after crossing up, the easier it would be to block. In theory. I've never played carmine nor played against carmine.

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UNIST Tier List

S Seth Byakuya Akatsuki Hyde
A Orie Vatista Merkava Phonon Gordeau Chaos Linne Nanase Carmine Eltnum
A- Waldstein
B Hilda Yuzuriha

Source

Dont know how accurate this really is given that the game is still relatively new, but i like how this looks so far

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