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I'm not familiar with carmine stuff, but in UNI, as I understand it, you can always block projectiles by pressing away from the projectile. Meaning that if a projectile is behind you, you can block it by holding forward, or by holding backwards.

On that note, Orie's left/right mixup is not really mixup. In a similar manner, once someone is in the air, you can block by holding 4, even if they cross you up. if they cross you up, you can block by holding 4 OR 6. Therefore the only way you can actually mixup with orie's j2C is by doing it, landing and hitting 2a, or doing j2C>J214B(cross back over to the front). landing and hitting 2a cannot be blocked by holding 4. j2C > j214B can be blocked by holding 4, regardless of whether you end up to the left or right.

So anything to do with carmine, would have to be something like - projectile hits you because you are holding 6 and carmine is actually in front of you and not behind you - or carmine crosses over and hits you because you are holding 4(now forward).  the bigger the gap between the projectile hitting and whatever hitting after crossing up, the easier it would be to block. In theory. I've never played carmine nor played against carmine.

A technique exists in UNiEL involving projectiles. If you put a projectile on somebody, cross them up, then cross them back up, cross up protection breaks. If the defender stands up and walks backwards, cross up protection kicks back in, so the character jumping over whiffs a button to trigger proximity blocking so the defender can't walk and that stops that. The same thing exists in DFC, somebody calls an assist and jumps over you, then jumps back over and whiffs a button to break cross up protect and it's a left/right 50/50. It's pretty timing sensitive but is totally easy to do with the right set up. It's really just exploiting the way projectiles are coded to be blocked from what I understand, but it's really weird and murky.

Carmine would just hit with his capture super, throw the delayed projectile on the ground, run to the other side of you, then jump back over you and it made it work. By making it so you can block facing forward for longer, it makes it hard to keep somebody from walking and gaining cross up protection while still creating that left/right mix up.

I'm not even gonna consider looking at a full tier list unless I know the name of the player attached, and then it's a moment in time and it's just there to help ask more questions.

Edited by Anne

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Anne pretty much summed up how crossups work in UNIEL. There's a bit more detail behind it (and I assume it works the same way in DFC), but that's about all that you'd need to know about it.

 

I'm guessing that projectiles are probably given unique cross-up protection properties or something, now. Wish I could test it out to see, and I wonder if the new DFC will implement it, too. Not really relevant to this thread, though.

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There's a bit more it with stuff like character facing and yeah. To cap it off about DFCI, I have seen some sick nasty cross up stuff, cross up protection is broken in every other game I see. I only wanna mention it because it all the traits of cross up protect in UNI were carried between DFC as far as I knew until they were updated. It would make sense considering the implications of how strong it is between games.

Hmm, maybe DFCI has the same change and the game is just more flexible in how people are exploiting it? Cause it seems to still happen regularly.

Edited by Anne

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to clarify, when you jump back over them (the second crossup, so returning to the side of projectile origin) it is considered a crossup because they need to guard in accordance to that, but you need to find a way to force them to guard by holding the direction towards the "incoming" projectile for it to serve as a mixup.

this usually means landing on the other side, while the projectile origin sandwiches them. proximity guard helps utilize this, but what this also implies is that a crossup hit can only happen on a specific, anticipated frame. if you stay on the side to sandwich them, they can guard the projectile holding forward or backwards, meaning you can technically fuzzy guard and guard switch on the anticipated frame (forward or backwards), because crossup / uncrossup via projectile alone do not serve as a real mixup (both are guardable with the same direction).

Say, you guarded by holding towards the projectile origin until 1 frame before the projectile connected, and then switched your guard for the frame that the projectile would hit, then swapped back, you'd be able to guard any attacks prior to the projectile connecting on the crossup side (ignoring high low), and if the projectile happened to hit "same side" on the anticipated frame, it wouldn't matter because crossup protection would kick in.

The way it sounds like it was altered (also suspecting this change in DFC ignition) is that there is now something like a left right autoguard window (testing this as a projectile/system thing in general would be fairly easy with the game, ill be able to try it out in japan soon lol), which would prevent super super tight crossups from happening (a la asw games) but because of the existing crossup protection, projectile crossups might make that guard switch WAY more practical than a one frame input, meaning optimized defense vs that kind of stuff might actually come to light.

today's off topic post by skd

edit: yeah, regarding how the system handles crossups, there are other ways to do practical crossups in DFCI thanks to different movement/projectile appearances so its still pretty grimy. regardless, a 5 frame crossup is definitely still something to be very scared of.

a good example of a unique crossup situation to deal with this kind of left/right guard switch is doing a left right crossup where you specifically hit the crouching turn animation, but whiff normal crouch/low guard animations (leafa 6D) and leverage that between a low hitting 2A. Having an autoguard window does make the crossup less tight, but the nature of the crossup means that if your opponent tries to fuzzy guard the left right, the projectile will never connect (lol).

Edited by skd

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As a final note, Hilda can actually create a crossup situation in which you cannot block by holding away from her projectile, and attempting to do so will actually just get you hit. This is due to both how her far her projectile spawns from her (the rain orb moves quite far before firing) and to the fact that she has one of the few moves in the game that force sideswaps (her B dp) mid-combo while retaining her facing.

 

She never really utilizes this particular setup because her 50/50 oki is infinitely more stable, damaging, and safe, but it's somewhat fun to point out that she has a unique crossup setup.

 

The character who probably gets hurt the most by the addition of cross-up protection on projectiles is Seth. Not sure if they made an exception for his orbs, but it would be somewhat unfortunate if his orb oki/mixup took a hit because of this.

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Sounds like exactly the same thing as Orie's. Both involve double crossups using a 'crossup protected' thing, like a projectile or an air attack (j2C>j214B), vs a normal attack (in orie's case, a j2C>2a) after crossing up only once... Although with Orie, if you shield the j2C, doesn't matter what she was trying to do, you get a punish.  And I'm not sure how legit the j2C>2a vs j214B is in the first place, in terms of reactability, in terms of fuzzy guarding.

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If they did just add left/right autoguard for a number of frames along with the current cross up protect, that would explain what I've been seeing in DFCI, yeah. Would mean the idea would still work in UNI same as in DFCI, but it would be way easier to defend against and way more difficult to apply it as an actual mix up with how characters tend to do it, you'd just fuzzy it. If it does work like that you'd need to create a different type of situation than the tight puddle stuff Carmine was doing before. Idk enough about what Seth can do to comment on that.

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Sounds like exactly the same thing as Orie's. Both involve double crossups using a 'crossup protected' thing, like a projectile or an air attack (j2C>j214B), vs a normal attack (in orie's case, a j2C>2a) after crossing up only once... Although with Orie, if you shield the j2C, doesn't matter what she was trying to do, you get a punish.  And I'm not sure how legit the j2C>2a vs j214B is in the first place, in terms of reactability, in terms of fuzzy guarding.

Orie has no crossup setups. She can sideswap and try to hit you with a low, but she can't force you to switch the side you're blocking against as she passes over your head. The projectile crossup mechanic basically feels like you're dealing with a BB/GG situation rather than a UNIEL situation.

 

Every crossup in UNIEL can be negated by shielding, so it's not the biggest issue, and most of the crossup situations can be reacted to fairly easily. In the case of reaction, though, if someone switchblocks too early and the opponent spaces themselves to not actually cross over, they can do a same-side attack to just hit the defender (as you'd expect). It's not as effective in UNIEL as other games, but the idea is the same.

 

 

edit: To be a bit more clear, though I loathe to get into specifics (the system mechanics thread might have some, I forget if I detailed it there), projectiles actually follow a separate set of rules in regards to how players have to block them. They have directions/points of origin that dictate how they must be blocked, and those are completely unrelated to where characters are or what directions they are facing. It's due to that disconnect that crossup situations can be created. Aerial normals and special moves that aren't projectiles are all bound to the character performing the attack, and have crossup protection applied from that.

 

==

 

@Anne: Seth can make his gaps larger, but everything would be more reactable. Pretty hard to say anything about it in UNIST without seeing it in action, though.

Edited by Tari

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Orie has no crossup setups. She can sideswap and try to hit you with a low, but she can't force you to switch the side you're blocking against as she passes over your head. The projectile crossup mechanic basically feels like you're dealing with a BB/GG situation rather than a UNIEL situation.

 

Every crossup in UNIEL can be negated by shielding, so it's not the biggest issue, and most of the crossup situations can be reacted to fairly easily. In the case of reaction, though, if someone switchblocks too early and the opponent spaces themselves to not actually cross over, they can do a same-side attack to just hit the defender (as you'd expect). It's not as effective in UNIEL as other games, but the idea is the same.

 

==

 

@Anne: Seth can make his gaps larger, but everything would be more reactable. Pretty hard to say anything about it in UNIST without seeing it in action, though.

 

Done properly, J2C> j214B.

j2C> crosses you over to the other side of them

J214B> crosses you back over in front of them.

 

therefore you have left right between:

J2C>2A.  Single crossup. Have to block 2A with 6.

J2C>J214B. Double crossup. Have to block J214B with 4.

Edited by Errol

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You just hold 4 in that scenario, then switch to block the 2A when she'd be hitting the ground. It's very different. I understand the timing is weird because of the delay of the move but that's not the scenario we're talking about.

Edited by Anne

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you switch to block the 2a 'when she'd be hitting the ground'... except oops she did J214B! and now I got hit by j214B because of a 2a that never came.

The question is whether you can react to the difference between J214B (23 frame startup) and land 2a (land + 5 frames). But if your plan is to block 2a when she'd be hitting the ground, you're basically going to have to react to the 23 frames to correct yourself or you're going to get hit.

I figure it's easier to react to the J214B, but the concepts are the same.

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You don't react, there's just a point where you can switch your guard and you'll be fine. Again, the delay makes that harder but optimally defending against is actually pretty simple. You're far more likely to get hit in that situation for other reasons than the left/right.

It's a lot different than the 50/50 where somebody is jumping over you and they can do a really tight cross up without needing to land. You can in theory mitigate it with fuzzy guarding but that is really impractical with how it is now, but might be more practical with the change.

Edited by Anne

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just to be clear, j214B hits on frame 23, 2a hits on frame 19, and if you use j214a that hits on frame 18.

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UNIST Tier List

Source

This is Eve's (rank 2 Eltnum in UNIE, current rank 1 Seth in UNIST, rank 5 Kirino, best F-Hime, blah blah) personal tier list, but his disclaimers suggest it's more of a quality of life ranking (AKA how much X character has benefited from direct/indirect [system] buffs) than an actual measure of viability.

"From the left are characters that give an impression of being strong"

A: "Characters(between UNI and UNIST) aren't that different"

B: "About the same (between versions)"

Of course, as mentioned earlier, this is just a "moment in time." Game isn't even a month old yet, etc. Interesting nonetheless.

----------------------------------

Slightly off-topic: It's interesting that the cross-up properties between UNIST and DFCI could possibly be different now, considering I believe they were near identical in the last iterations of respective titles (DFC literally being built off the UNI engine and all). Video footage is a bit misleading, but DFCI seems to keep the same cross-up protection windows as vanilla DFC/Melty Blood.

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Your point? There's a difference in timings there, it's simple. She can't really delay either, I mean all there is to it if she doesn't keep falling you hold 4, if she keeps falling you switch to 3. And again, that's not the type of situation we are describing.

Edit: DFCI probably has the same cross up properties as UNIST considering how they were updated, it's just that is a different game with much different ways of dealing with it. I wouldn't call it too off topic if you understand better how it works in UNI from the discussion.

Edit edit: I get why the Orie thing exist, and you don't actually fuzzy block it like that, but it's really not a left/right like that either. There are a few ways to mitigate it I believe and it's not super strong and is reactable as far as I can tell. It's def a much different situation than the ones were talking about mechanic regarding, it's unique in how it will hit you.

Edited by Anne

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i agree. we'll file it under decent at best.

 

Let me put out some more numbers.

2A hits on frame 19 (left)

3B hits on frame 20 (left)

5B hits on frame 23 (left)

J214B hits on frame 23 (right)

 

And stop me if you've heard this one before -

'I mean all there is to it if relius doesn't keep falling you hold 4, if he keeps falling you switch to 1'

 

I think I am done here.

 

Edited by Errol

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Like I know you're arguing just to argue and make me upset, but I do need to clarify where you're wrong. There's a large difference between trying to create that cross up situation and protected airdash high/low.

Can it be a left/right? Totally. Is it a left right 50/50 we were talking about, based on projectiles? No. Are you going to use those options like land 5B/3B in a left/right situation? No. Do the gaps in the strings leave practical room for mitigation using other options and fuzzy defense? Yes. Is the primary reason for that situation hitting based on the left/right mix up? No. Is it completely plausible to react to the air special based on her height after a period of time where the move connects? Yes. Is it a bad thing to do? No. Is it good? Yes. Is it good based on what you're saying? No.

It's far more likely that somebody is going to block the jump in and then attempt to input a delayed option and get caught by the special move, and the variations between that and 2A are going to do that. The left/right in this scenario also works differently than in the projectile based set ups. It might catch some people sleeping as the left/right, but that's far less likely. We've been talking about left/right 50/50s using projectiles to beat cross up protection in a unique way, in ways that Carmine, Seth, Hilda do very often in the current game. Those are completely unreactable and more or less safe to defensive options we know about. The way those specific types of set ups work have been altered in UNIST and possibly DFCI (same dev, lots of similarities in the core).

Edit: SKD basically filled in the gaps left by me and Tari and we had a fine discussion about it. I'd just read those again.

Edited by Anne

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Did you just say jump in? Do you realize that this crossup is not started by a jump in? How many more times do you have to say something wrong that I have to point out is wrong before you CONSIDER that you MIGHT be wrong?

 

This is a Left/Right mixup. Yes, it's certainly reactable. It's not so easy as you make it out.

Edited by Errol

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The Orie thing he's talking about is the tk. j.2C pressure that you see Nishine etc. do a lot, where the momentum can sometimes cause you to cross sides and you can land and perform a low, or do j.214b before landing. It's entirely unrelated to what's being discussed here, and falls well within what crossup protection allows (see 4-way okizeme in melty, with high/low/crossup low/throw).

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So you block a j2C. Even if it's TKed, that's still a jump in? I've seen it a lot, I know it's good and why it's good. Like you said, it's just not what we're talking about and it's misleading to go on about it and use the left/right as the key point.

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TKs are considered 'jumpins' now?

 

It is a left/right mixup. The reason that it is a left/right mixup is for exactly the same reason you can use projectiles for left/right mixup.

Orie leaves the ground on the right side of the screen. Normally anything you do in the air triggers crossup protection. You can block it by holding left, even if they end up on the left side of the screen. You can also block it with right. However, if you cross back over again, a double cross over, you can only block it in the original direction. i.e. Left.

 

It becomes left/right mixup because after crossing over ONCE, Orie may or may not cross back over. J214B -> crosses BACK over, must block with LEFT. 2A -> Orie doesn't cross over, hits with 2a, must block with RIGHT.

 

Neither Orie's left/right mixup nor Carmine's is made possible by the crossup protection, they're both possible *in spite of* the crossup protection. In both cases, you're talking about getting hit by a normal that must be blocked with right, or getting hit by a crossup-protection affected move (a projectile or an air move) with left.  The difference is, I think, that carmine's mixup is very tight - there's no time to react. You pick one or the other. Orie's mixup is also left/right, but it's slow enough to be reactable. You need to be able to see a 23 frame move in order to react to it, as far as I can tell.

 

In terms of system changes, because Orie's mixup is slow enough, an autoguard window for left/right is unlikely to do anything to change it. Carmine's is different on that point.

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Actually it's a bit different due to Carmine's jump origin. The normal rules of cross up protection should protect against a cross up based on jump origin(very simple way to think about it) until landing. He puts the projectile down on one side, goes to other, then jumps back over. Now the only way to block the projectile is from the original direction right? That's the similarity, it's based on the origin of the move. The difference is that Carmine jumps over and the cross up protection didn't "properly" interact with the projectile hitting based on Carmine's jump origin, and if he hits another button that would hit in the opposite direction of the projectile origin you have to block according to that button. It's a pretty unique case because Carmine doesn't have to land after the jump to create a left/right situation, similar to most other fighters without the level of cross up protect in UNI. The projectile origin interacting with Carmine's placement made the "normal" rules of cross up protection not apply in reference to his jump origin.

You're right in saying the system change shouldn't affect mix up like Orie's, but it's worth noting the differences in this specific engine exploit and that measures were added to the game to prevent it. It's less about it being slow and more about that type of situation not occurring with her though. It's also worth pointing out that Orie using j.2C like this creates a situation that follows the "normal" rules of cross up protection, and its use as a left/right is fairly minimal in regards to the total situation it creates. It's fairly easy to deal with that aspect of it, especially in regards to the other types of situations that exist.

Edited by Anne

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The way I'm thinking about it is that both jump and projectile have an origin.

 

Jump is Origin on the Left side of the Screen

Projectile is Origin on the Right side of the screen.

 

if the crossup hits them when carmine is on the left side of the screen, they have to block right. 

If the crossup hits them when carmine is on the right side of the screen.. well. The crossup doesn't hit them. The projectile hits them, because they are holding right when carmine is to the right of them, and the projectile Origin is Right.

 

Block Right -> Carmine Right -> Proj Origin Right -> Projectile Hits

Block Left -> Carmine Left -> Jump Origin Left -> Jump Attack Hits

 

It seems to me that the crossup protection is all working as designed, but it works independently.  Neither of these attacks provides any mixup on their own. If you hold right, you will always block the jump attack, and if you hold left, you will always block the projectile.  The problem, of course, is that if you try to block the projectile, you can get hit by the jump attack , and vice versa.  The mixup is still a normal attack on the left (crossup protection doesn't kick in) vs a double crossup on the right (projectile). 

 

If you hold right, you will block both the projectile, and the jump attack, until the point where he crosses you over. then you can get hit by the projectile. If you could instantly blockswitch to left when he crosses over you, you could completely avoid the mixup (note, completely theoretical). So, right now, if my understanding is right, even if he hits you on the left, if you don't switch blocking quick enough you can still get hit by the projectile. an auto guard for left/right would get rid of this aspect. But, as far as I can tell, this wouldn't completely get rid of the mixup - it would make it behave like Orie's, basically. So long as you blocked the first hit, you'd be good. The mixup would be strictly about getting hit by carmine on the left, or the projectile as he crosses over to the right.

The only thing I can think of that they could do specifically with projectiles is to detect the double crossup situation and in that case, still make the projectile blockable in both directions. They could do the same thing with jump attacks, but that's mostly Orie that can do double crossup off a single jump and it's a reasonable, not king of grime mixup.

 

Last, I think we're talking about semantics with Orie's j2C. it has a significant left/right mixup to it. It's also got pressure. It provides a trap - you generally can't mash out of option a with the same thing you use to beat option B. You'll get hit and punished hard. It also mixes up inputs so you can't DP etc easily. It's got a nice total package. You can't just split out the mixup and the pressure, the mixup is good because the pressure is good.

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