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[P4AU] Ken Amada Gameplay Discussion

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Well I spent all night playing friends on their consoles... got home to download my copy and found that PSN is offline for maintenance...

I'm really mad...

Srry to hear that =[ =[ =[ =[ =[ =[ =[ =[ =[

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lol I actually have that color. I'm glad it doesn't make him huge, he'd be an easy target.

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Just a few day one observations; j. B is one of the best air normals in the game, and it has a bizarre cross up hit box.

The dog specials, once they're active, have a pretty strong chance of clashing with and going through opposing attacks. It seems about 50/50 whether Koromaru will get beat clean or whether he will clash and go through. Head invuln moves seem to fare better against the pinwheel.

Koromaru's run animation he does to come back to you can be interrupted witb another dog normal. 2C seems really strong since he will stop his forward run and do his attack if the opponent is above or in front of him.

236B is actually plus on block, and 236AB is really plus, so it seems like he can derp his way into frame advantage and an offense pretty easily. The limited tracking on 2C seems to allow fairly safe option selects like 236B/2C to leave you safe if they try to jump away from the spear.

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Just a few day one observations; j. B is one of the best air normals in the game, and it has a bizarre cross up hit box.

The dog specials, once they're active, have a pretty strong chance of clashing with and going through opposing attacks. It seems about 50/50 whether Koromaru will get beat clean or whether he will clash and go through. Head invuln moves seem to fare better against the pinwheel.

Koromaru's run animation he does to come back to you can be interrupted witb another dog normal. 2C seems really strong since he will stop his forward run and do his attack if the opponent is above or in front of him.

236B is actually plus on block, and 236AB is really plus, so it seems like he can derp his way into frame advantage and an offense pretty easily. The limited tracking on 2C seems to allow fairly safe option selects like 236B/2C to leave you safe if they try to jump away from the spear.

 

Nice findings ! Yeah jB is definitely one of the best air normals in the game. It's one of the few that allow you to do a fuzzy overhead (deep jB> jump cancel> jA). you can even confirm from it if Koro is idle by doing 2C, then dash jA into combo of choice ! it is a bit hard to set up though, so far, I use it in my press when I do 236B>214C and then use the blockstun from the dog to go for the deep jB. The advantage is that Koro recovers in time to do the 2C is the fuzzy connects, or help you mid combo if you got a 2A/2B confirm It can be mashed out with IB, but the fuzzy itself is full proof so there is probably a way to set it up safely.

 

EDIT : turns out it isn'"t as useful as I thought it would be, the timing is actually far too strict (something like a just frame) and doesn't seem to work on some characters. It exists though.

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FYI: completing Arcade on Risky unlocks "boss"/unlimited characters. Ken's boss form: Koromaru has no hurtbox (INFINITE DOGE...); damage up (looks like a solid .5 multiplier -- 5C or 2C did 1100); Mediarama B heals Ken for 2k, can't confirm A or SB versions but we Score Attack Liz now.

Also, Thunder Reign A confirmed Fatal Recovery. Need to check B and SB.

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Nice findings ! Yeah jB is definitely one of the best air normals in the game. It's one of the few that allow you to do a fuzzy overhead (deep jB> jump cancel> jA). you can even confirm from it if Koro is idle by doing 2C, then dash jA into combo of choice ! it is a bit hard to set up though, so far, I use it in my press when I do 236B>214C and then use the blockstun from the dog to go for the deep jB. The advantage is that Koro recovers in time to do the 2C is the fuzzy connects, or help you mid combo if you got a 2A/2B confirm It can be mashed out with IB, but the fuzzy itself is full proof so there is probably a way to set it up safely.

 

EDIT : turns out it isn'"t as useful as I thought it would be, the timing is actually far too strict (something like a just frame) and doesn't seem to work on some characters. It exists though.

I was messing with fuzzy stuff too. I think the tallest characters are Yu, Yosuke, and Mitsuru (like before) with Ken too now. You can use j.2B instead and I found it easier since it's faster than j.B. also you can use j.2B instead of j.A. so j.2B fuzzy j.2B works and is probably more rewarding. Haven't had time to look at how practical it is or a combo from it but it seems good.

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Some early frame data; should be relatively accurate give or take a frame on the dog stuff. I only included start up and static difference, as active and recovery are a lot more work to get and are significantly less useful. There's some good news and bad news in there.

 

 

5A 8f startup, -3 

5AA -10

5AAA w/ Koromaru attack +1

5AAA w/o Koromaru attack -17

 

2A 6f statup, +1 on block

5B 12f startup, -25 on block w/o jump cancel

2B 10(1), 18(2) startup, -19 on block

2AB 18f startup, -8 on block without hop cancel

 

AoA 32f startup, -25 on block, but gains autoguard on frame 10 or 11

DP 15f startup, death on block

 

j. A 7f startup

j. B 15f startup

j. 2B 13f startup

 

5C 19f startup (point blank), +23 on block

2C 21f startup (point blank), +23 on block

 

236C 24f startup, +28 on block

236D 36f startup, +26 on block

236CD 22f startup, +35 on block

 

214C 43f startup

214D 51f startup

214CD 43f startup, +62 on block

 

5C after 5D, ~50 frame startup, +23 on block

 

236A 17 frame startup, -17 on block

236B 25 frame startup, +1 on block

236AB 19 frame startup, +7 on block

A follow up -10 on block

B follow up +5 on block

SB follow up +3 on block

 

 

I got some early frame data on his supers as well, but I want to double check them since the super freeze and the animation on some moves makes it hard to calculate correctly, and the numbers I have seem off. 236236A, and 214214A are both extremely fast though, like uncommonly fast for Persona. Without very specific set-ups, they are very difficult to safe jump. I didn't include static difference for 214C/214D since they don't hit standing opponents, and I was too lazy to set the dummy to jump properly in training mode.

Also worth noting is that his AoA is god awful as an overhead at 32 frames, but it gets autoguard on frame 10 or 11, which is significantly earlier than everyone else in the game (at least of the recurring characters), so it's actually pretty good against mashers. It does seem to lose autoguard on the last one or two startup frames though.

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9:02 PM, you're a hero. I can start rounding out the Wiki now!

His supers are pretty fast, yeah. I suspect it's to balance the DP, lack of a 5f 2A or 5A for mashing out of pressure (though 6f is really nice), and no standalone persona normals, dash cancels, jump cancels, etc. We don't have the same ground options other characters do. Though Thunder Reign A is Fatal Recovery, so block/whiff and die.

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so i have been doing some 236ab b set ups and they are making people block a 214d. the block stun is huge and i think its fabulous right now. i think u can reversal through it thou but it for now looks like a really good set up. especially in the corner.

 

also when are u guys planing 2 do that skype thing?

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Some things I tested tonight in online training (we used Narukami because lol no one has fought a Narukami):

-- Evasive Action/Roll is identical (or as close to identical as can be spied) to Narukami's in distance, making it one of the better ones

-- IAD goes further than Narukami's, closer to Shabrys length; IAD backdash fairly compact but useful for IAD AC set-ups

-- Really good jump arc, cleanly beats out Narukami's (!)

-- GUYS. HE HAS DASH ACCELERATION. It's actually pretty major and makes his air game ridiculous, as you can dash > jump > own half the screen with j.B. Dash speed is identical to Narukami's until the acceleration kicks in.

-- I forgot to write down damage numbers but all versions of Thunder Reign are Fatal Recovery; Fire Breath and Awakening super are still fine. Thunder A is confirmed 2000 damage raw.

-- There appears to be some invuln on Thunder but wasn't able to test fully

-- To avoid throw problems, back throw an opponent (4CD versus 5/6CD). They'll land in front of Ken or, if in the corner/near the corner, in the corner. Can follow into a combo with Koromaru commands at a minimum. Basically, just reverse your throw input if you don't want to side swap.

-- Also, Rise j.B is Fatal Recovery, in case you wanted to know

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We actually have the skype group already up. Add agito974 and I'll add you.

 

After playing enough matches online and doing a bit of training mode. When Ken gets touched, whether hit or blocking, Koromaru stops whatever he's doing. The only thing Koromaru is capable of while Ken is blocking is entering/exiting from battle. It's a bit annoying but makes sense.

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now honestly after playing like 20+ on netplay i feel like

 

1. ken is strong

 

2. the goal of ken should b get a sandwitch between like ken-opponent-dog or get them in the corner

 

this guys offensive is really something let me tell u

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Damage numbers for the wiki and my own reference, supers only. A few interesting finds. [collapse]Thunder Reign A: 2000

Thunder Reign B: 2600

Thunder Reign SB: 2600.

A is insanely fast start-up, B less so, SB closer to A. Yeah, I know, really helpful. Again, all versions are Fatal Recovery. Really good for adding damage, but be careful.

Fire Breath/Maragidyne/Whatever It's Officially Called

Fire C: One hit, 1800 damage

Fire D: Six hits, 2250 damage max

Fire SB: Ten hits, 3250 damage max (no, that's not a typo)

Okay, so Koromaru positioning is everything for this one, and there are probably other inconsistencies for characters with abnormal hit boxes. Long story short, it's unlikely you'll be cleanly landing all hits for the D and SB versions, as you need Koromaru to be overlapping the opponent's hurtbox when you input the move. (Might be easier on crouches; I'm off to test that but wanted to put down numbers first.) Just testing the damage on Yosuke, I needed Koromaru's head visible between Yosuke's legs to get all the hits to connect. You probably have better uses for that extra 25 meter, but if there's another way to force someone to eat all the hits or you find yourself in that situation, go for it. Real Soviet Sho-level damage.

Ultimate Cross/Awakening Super

Cross A: 3000 (2200)

Cross B: 3450 (2400)

Cross SB: 3450 (2400)

Numbers in parentheses are the damage when performed without Koromaru.

Technically, it's multi-hit, like Narukami's Cross Slash. The first is always 1000 damage, the second varies between A and B/SB. Since damage is identical between B and SB, I'm guessing there's some invuln (added?) on SB. If Koromaru is in play, it's a three hit move (though the game doesn't show the amount of damage from hits 2 and 3, just jumps to "3 hits" and the total damage number); if he's not, it's two. [/collapse]

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He seems really good in first impressions, but he also seems like the type of character where others need to study the matchup against him a little more.

I feel like he will be mid at worst though and has potential to be great.

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He seems really good in first impressions, but he also seems like the type of character where others need to study the matchup against him a little more.

I feel like he will be mid at worst though and has potential to be great.

Nice. I'll definitely try to main him now. 

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I hope Ken is more fun in a match than in the lab. His moves seem stale-ish, since Ken himself only has one damaging special, and no air special actions. Also, you guys were right about 214C/D. It can't be used without tons of premeditation, and I don't really see its application in combos.

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^

Starting to see uses for 214C/D in corner combos and some midscreen ones even but seems suited for corner combo only so far. To me I only plan to use it for Oki atm.

I too wish he had at least one more special or an air special but I guess the dog adds the bulk of his variety.

Mid match feels hectic but fun to me managing the dog's health and positioning.

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214C/D can definitely see some time in corner combos but it's far from optimal as far as I've seen... You just get more damage from 236C/D instead.

I've had some success doing 214C+D in neutral... It goes pretty much full screen, covers a bunch of space on the way and seems kind of hard to beat out. Only problem is that I can't figure out how to do it in neutral without Ken whiffing a grab.

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