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[P4AU] Ken Amada Gameplay Discussion

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214C/D can definitely see some time in corner combos but it's far from optimal as far as I've seen... You just get more damage from 236C/D instead.

I've had some success doing 214C+D in neutral... It goes pretty much full screen, covers a bunch of space on the way and seems kind of hard to beat out. Only problem is that I can't figure out how to do it in neutral without Ken whiffing a grab.

 

Can't possibly make you as mad as grabbing and accidentally putting Koro away.

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214C/D can definitely see some time in corner combos but it's far from optimal as far as I've seen... You just get more damage from 236C/D instead.

I've had some success doing 214C+D in neutral... It goes pretty much full screen, covers a bunch of space on the way and seems kind of hard to beat out. Only problem is that I can't figure out how to do it in neutral without Ken whiffing a grab.

 

i would do air throw tk cd. so it would b 2147cd and see if this works b/c air throw has amazing recovery.

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I'd probably recommend 2149CD or 9214CD because you're going to want to go in behind this as opposed to spending 25 meter and jumping back to do nothing.

I'd say 963214CD to get IAD and that at the same time but the ball won't quite be fast enough and you'll be air dashing in with air throw in front of the Koro-ball... not good.

 

Can't possibly make you as mad as grabbing and accidentally putting Koro away.

 
Terrible for neutral unfortunately but if you do get that hit with Koro away...

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Some notes, after doing about four and a half hours of netplay tonight;

 

  • Ken's...awkward, if you're not used to the puppet playstyle.  Sometimes, you just have to sit back and poke with Koromaru to annoy them enough.
  • Multi hit reversal supers can fuck your pressure super hard. Main example being Labrys' Awakening Super.
  • Kanji has a super hard time dealing with Ken in neutral. Bully him with Koromaru whenever possible, DP on reaction to YOLO dives.
  • Ken's lack of gatlings is...annoying. It makes it hard to hit confirm with him.
  • 2B is pretty bad. Honestly, I'm getting more mileage off of whiff 5B as an anti-air over 2B :s
  • DP is probably tied with Labrys' or Elizabeth's tbh...when used as a reversal. In certain match ups, it absolutely dominates though. It'll blow up Yosuke Moonsault if done preemptively, and as stated previously? It destroys Kanji's approach.
  • Start of the round 5B>2C is a decent way to start a match. If they SJ, you still have space to find your positioning in most MUs, so generally it seems fairly safe.
  • If they SJ and you're in awakening, try this for a mix up! Dash under them, 214214A/B! It hits at SJ height, and if done right, it can be almost impossible to tell if you crossed under or not. Also, it's safe.

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So Koro doesn't set off traps, does he? That'd be hilarious if Koromaru could be hit with Naoto's death counter moves.

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Naoto's traps won't be revealed if Koromaru goes near them but once they are revealed he can be hit if he doesn't attack through them. Pretty much all of Koro's attacks beat traps.

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By the way, even though Ken's AoA is pretty bad by itself, it allows for slick mixups in the corner when combined with OMC.

AoA> OMC> jA (2hits)

AoA>OMC >delay jA (1 hit)>2B

AoA> OMC >jB

AoA>OMC>late jB(no hit) > 2B

 

What is cool is that you can use Koromaru to cover the startup of the AoA, or even order him while doing the OMC (you just input the special you want while pressing A+B+C) effectively making the mixup harder to see, and giving you a chance to attempt another one

 

AoA>OMC +214C>jA/jB>5A>jc>214C(hit)>air-turned IAD>jB/2A/throw

AoA>OMC+214C>jA/jB>dash> throw before 214C connects

 

Possibilities are endless, and those are already relatively safe : Even if you use 50 meter to do those, your opponent will probably be forced to use counter assault/counter roll, or waste his burst.And even if they manage to block all of this, Koro-chan should be back when the mixup ends, leaving you time to try other things !

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On the note of finding a use for 214C/D, I find that using 214D is far more reliable than 236D to follow up from a j.2B at double-jump height. You can easily follow it up with either another j.2B into oki, or DP into super. Granted, it does do a touch less damage than 236D, but I haven't been able to consistently hit that off a high j.2B and actually get a followup (either IAD into j.2B into oki, or 236B). That's pretty much the only situation I use it in combos, though.

 

Agreeing with what someone said above that 2B is just miserable as an anti-air. It works occasionally, but not nearly often enough for it to be worth using. I've seen the second hit of 5B work before, but as it's not jump or special cancelable, I don't think that's useful either.

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On the note of finding a use for 214C/D, I find that using 214D is far more reliable than 236D to follow up from a j.2B at double-jump height. You can easily follow it up with either another j.2B into oki, or DP into super. Granted, it does do a touch less damage than 236D, but I haven't been able to consistently hit that off a high j.2B and actually get a followup (either IAD into j.2B into oki, or 236B). That's pretty much the only situation I use it in combos, though.

 

Agreeing with what someone said above that 2B is just miserable as an anti-air. It works occasionally, but not nearly often enough for it to be worth using. I've seen the second hit of 5B work before, but as it's not jump or special cancelable, I don't think that's useful either.

Nice find!

I'm trying to test how to avoid accidental Koromaru commands. It's basically the same issue as Shabrys: if you DP, the game often registers a 5D as part of the B+D and that creates issues. (Moreso for Ken than Shabrys, due to the resummon time on Koromaru.) AoA ~ C/D can create wonkiness as well. It may be a matter of hitting BD simultaneously (macro?) or just me whacking buttons too hard. The one time I've found "system command = system command + unintended Koromaru move" to be useful is when using CD/throw. I need to test more to get a handle on the exact timing, but I've been able to get 214C + 4CD by having the game accept the 214C and the 4CD as, more or less, 214CD ... if I add a minuscule pause in the chain. It's strange.

I think we all knew 2B was going to be awful the moment our initial testers (Dopples and 9:02 AM) reported in, and by Evo, we had notes from Pen_Ninja as well. It's unfortunate, but we have amazing jumps. I did some test matches with Ken against a friend playing Minazuki and our j.A is fast enough to Fatal Minazuki right out of his teleport with ease. The other nice thing about j.A is that if you cancel it into itself, you maintain a very safe position in air-to-air situations -- j.A > j.A keeps you safe if all hits are blocked, with plenty of time to add a j.C while landing. And, of course, on confirm, you can always do j.A > j.A > djc.B > j.2B or better to close in for a combo.

Still hoping we get frame data since Rise's came out, but thanks to our hardworking Skype group, we do have some numbers, and the wiki is beginning to progress.

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There's actually a glitch with the throw input, if you do a dog special and use the throw input as the buttons (like 214CD) the dog special will continue even if the throw is teched/late teched. Normally techs stop a koro attack since they count as a hit, but for some reasom you have a few frames where you can throw and have your dog attack be unaffected.

The end result being if your throw whiffs or is teched you still have massive frame advantage.

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Not sure if this was documented yet, but during the first few frames for Ken's throw, Koromaru's commands are reversed.

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It's kind of odd...

 

Assume you're on the P1 side for the following

 

If you do 5CD, it throws behind Ken, effectively putting you on the P2 side. For most of the throw's animation, doing inputs as if you're on the P1 side will come out properly even thought you're visibly on the P2 side. Once the throw has ended, the game registers you on the P2 side and inputs "reverse".

 

If you do 4BC, it throws your opponent in front of you keeping you on the P1 side. HOWEVER... for the duration of the throw, the game treats you as being on the P2 side meaning inputs are "reversed" even though you're staying on the same side.

 

It seems like the game immediately calculates which side you're on in terms of whether you forward or backward throw but does not calculate after that until the throw ends... meaning that even though you change directions mid-throw, the input direction does not change until the throw is completely over.

In the case of a back throw... the input direction changes immediately, then does not change back until the animation is completed.

 

I hate this... so much...

I'm so glad we found throw > 66B > 236A... it's so much more consistent.

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I haven't actually fought one myself yet but I've been thinking about how that MU would go.

 

As far as I can tell it goes like this.

 

5A: hers is longer and faster than yours
5B: her 5A is much faster, a bit shorter

236A/B: She has 5D at this range which is faster
j.B: DA GOD

 

 

She seems like she'd beat out pretty much all of Ken's normals with similar but better moves.

I feel like you need to abuse the fact that you have Koromaru in the MU because she outclasses you in almost every other way.

 

Edit: I feel like this should be here: http://www.dustloop.com/forums/index.php?/topic/9121-p4au-ken-amada-vs-mitsuru-kirijo/

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Yes please direct matchup specific questions/discussion to the proper matchup thread.

I'm still playing catch-up so thread updating is slow. So far I just threw all combo vid links in the video thread. Been in the lab all evening, found some interesting things but need to test some more tomorrow.

also, looking at the wiki, I'm glad we are already getting some stuff filled in. But I just want to say we should follow the format given more closely if possible :) (as in first bullet = uses, second = properties, paragraph = more detailed explanation). And I don't think j.B is the same speed as j.2B, j.2B definitely seems faster to me.

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The start-up on j.2B is my bad. It's 13, not 15. Transcription error from the frame data posted in the Skype chat. I'll fix that right away ... and I'll go over the text later today when I have time and brainpower. (It's 6AM; I've got nothin'.)

Are there any specific spots you want cleaned up, VR-Raiden? I know Charge Thrust is non-standard (I appreciate the fact that someone was nice enough to migrate the info I compiled to the wiki, but, yeah, formatting it for the wiki is on my to-do list), but do you also want 2B and 5AAA touched up? I'm kind of at a loss on whether to provide more or less info, since we don't have frame data, and the frame advantage on 5AAA is variable. :vbang:

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Thanks, I wanted to mention that we should follow the format so there's less editing to do later. First bullet should explain strictly uses of the move in matches. And some moves just got rid of the bullet points altogether. It's not a huge deal since we're still learning the character and can edit when we know more, but wanted to point it out. I'd have to wait til tonight to see specifically which moves need fixing. But thanks again for the info on there so far.

Might as well share one thing I looked at last night incase others can expand on it.

Corner AoA > delayed input 214C/D > AoA blocked > OMC j.2B blocked > forward jump cancel j.2B (fuzzy) > 214C/D hits > land 2A. Didn't learn a combo yet but I imagine you could get pretty standard stuff following the 2A. Only tested on Yu so far but probably works on Yosuke, Mitsuru, Ken as well. Seemed to combo fine if the first j.2B hit too, but had issues if they didn't block AoA.

EDIT: Oh thanks Pen_Ninja, a lot of my time last night was exploring j.2B jump cancel safejumps+236D and how to end combos into it. I like how it looks so far. Will check out the vid tonight.

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Those safe jump setups look really good. The dog's not doing anything at the end, so if the j.B is blocked, you could still get a 236C > roll mixup at the end.

 

My followup combo to Whatever > 236B > 2B currently is j.A[2] > j.B jc j.A[2] (input 214D during first hit) > j.2B (214D hits) land, rejump j.2B. That video makes me wonder if a safejump is possible off that, since it would be a bit more optimal if so.

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You're probably better doing 236D on your way down on the 2nd one... if the cross-up hits it's a much easier combo... if not, it's still pressure

The first one doesn't really need much Koro action happening.

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Yeah, 236D certainly better if there's enough time. I just want to reduce the chance that they can jump away or something after blocking the j.B. Will test later, regardless.

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Watched the vid, yeah that's essentially what I was doing. I've been trying to optimize combos into ending with a safejump that lands you close enough to empty 2A for a low. Another route I found that works:

4AAA > 236A > 236D > 236B->B > 214C > (dash) j.2B (JC) > safejump+236D

adding in 236D as you jump cancel seems good since it makes them block if they delay tech, and leaves you advantage. Basically it looks to me like these safejumps add an extra layer to the usual oki. If it's at the cost of a little damage I can see them totally being worth it. Only problem is you can't do delay airdash stuff or fuzzy off a jump cancelled j.2B safejump, but from that just neutral jump setup you should be able to.

oh while I'm at it, j.A can hit twice on stand blocking, so from this you can do something similar to Narukami j.B. j.A(1) > j.B(cancelled by landing) > 2A for 1 high hit into low instead of 2 high hits.

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