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[P4AU] Ken Amada Gameplay Discussion

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I keep seeing videos of Ken players where Koromaru gets hit immediately after recovering from previously getting hit. I'm sure people know that he's invincible as soon as 5D is used, but I'm not so sure if it's common knowledge that you can simply hold down the D button and Koromaru will get out of there at the earliest possible opportunity. I haven't seen that mentioned in this thread yet, and it's really nice to know.

 

It's also possible to pick up a full combo while Koromaru is off screen recovering, as long as you hit 5C early enough. For example, 2B (hit 5C during the first hit) > 5B (dog hits) > 2AB > 236A > 236C > etc. works. I believe you can continue the combo if the dog hits after 236AA as well, but I had more issues getting consistent with that.

 

EDIT: Just confirmed that this safejump setup works, at least on Narukami:
5A > 2B > 5C > 2AB > 236A > 236C > 236B > 2B jc j.A[2] > j.B jc j.A[2] (input 214D during first hit) > j.2B (214D hits) jump, j.2B, airdash, meaty j.B

 

You recover fast enough to block Narukami's DP if you do it correctly. This doubles as a high/low mixup as you can land and do a low instead of doing the airdash j.B, and it also leaves Koromaru in a perfect position for a 236D > roll mixup.

 

Gonna try this on a few more characters.

 

EDIT2: I got this safejump to work on everyone except Yosuke, Kanji, Teddie, Naoto, Akihiko, and Rise. It works on Chie even though the other counter-type DPs beat it, and in Elizabeth's case you'd obviously have to avoid or tech her grab. I didn't test reversal supers or other specials besides B+D.

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EDIT: Just confirmed that this safejump setup works, at least on Narukami:

5A > 2B > 5C > 2AB > 236A > 236C > 236B > 2B jc j.A[2] > j.B jc j.A[2] (input 214D during first hit) > j.2B (214D hits) jump, j.2B, airdash, meaty j.B

 

You recover fast enough to block Narukami's DP if you do it correctly. This doubles as a high/low mixup as you can land and do a low instead of doing the airdash j.B, and it also leaves Koromaru in a perfect position for a 236D > roll mixup.

 

Gonna try this on a few more characters.

 

EDIT2: I got this safejump to work on everyone except Yosuke, Kanji, Teddie, Naoto, Akihiko, and Rise. It works on Chie even though the other counter-type DPs beat it, and in Elizabeth's case you'd obviously have to avoid or tech her grab. I didn't test reversal supers or other specials besides B+D.

I like this, it's something like I was trying to find, but I can't get it to safejump. Is the attack out of the airdash delayed as much as possible? Also finding getting the last j.2B pretty annoying. I modified it to have 3 j.A hits on the last part to help with that but I'm still not getting airdash attacks to safejump.

For reference that combo does 3206.

I'm looking at simpler options, they are much more consistent for me but less damage and corner carry.

5A > 2B > 5C > 2AB > 236A > 236C > 236B->B > 214C > walk forwardjump j.B > j.2C > forward jump cancel > j.B safejump

does 3092

5A > 2B > 5C > 2AB > 236A > 236C > 236B > 2B > j.A(1) > j.B > j.2B > foward jump cancel j.B crossup safejump

does 2882, does less slightly but it creates a sandwich if you 236D while jumping over making for better confirms/pressure?

5A > 2B > 5C > 2AB > 236A > 236C > 236B > neutral jump j.B safejump

does 2167, but gives more options (delay airdash, fuzzy j.2B)

(This one needs double checking, I'm not getting it to actually safejump now...)

I wanna flesh this out with the help of others, it's pretty good looking to me. You get a meaty high which discourages DP, which can be coupled with empty 2A/2B or j.A(1) whiff cancel 2A/2B, and if they delay tech to avoid that you're still plus if you did 236D. Add in crossup Koromaru attacks, AoA, AoA(OMC), and throw stuff in there and it's a lot of options.

EDIT:

Addendum on the 2nd one,

5A > 2B > 5C > 2AB > 236A > 236C > 236B > 2B > j.A(1) > j.B > j.2B > foward jump cancel j.B crossup safejump

If they start delay teching every time after j.2B to avoid the safejump, you can do 236D during j.2B and immediate OTG 2A upon landing, it will combo into 236D which you can followup with dash j.B > j.2B > backjump cancel j.B safejump. If they delay at all, the 2A will OTG. Does 3295 with the OTG add on.

EDIT2:

This route works off throw,

Throw > dash 5B > 236A > 236C > 236B->B > 214C > walk forwardjump > j.2B > forward jump cancel > j.B safejump

2413

EDIT3:

Unrelated, experimented a bit more with fuzzy j.2B.

deep j.2B blocked > forward jump cancel j.2B(OMC) hit (2C comes out) > j.B hit (2C hits) > j.A works on Yu, Yosuke, Mitsuru, Ken. On Yu you can even do j.2B for the 3rd hit and it fuzzies after the initial fuzzy if they blocked that then switched for whatever reason.

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The safejump in my combo is definitely a bit tricky. I think the key is having a very slight delay between jumping and doing the very last j.2B, so that you can airdash as early as possible afterwards and be very low to the ground.

 

Also, even though I recorded it and it was safejumping most character's DPs fine, I found that they can evasive action out, for some reason. I'm not sure if those have head invuln on frame 1 or if the j.B is being low profiled, though. Might not be a big deal, as I imagine you could punish it on reaction if you're looking for it.

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Rolls are invuln to everything but throws from the third frame ... at which point you're in CH state. You probably can't punish the 2f of non-strike invuln during the start of the roll, but you can certainly get a CH throw. Because rolling puts you in a Counter Hit state, most smart players won't try to use it to escape corner pressure, excepting situations in which rolling is a viable option, which is character and MU specific (opponent is committed to a move with long recovery + your character's roll distance is actually good).

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You should be counter hitting (or just hitting, I don't know if it's CH before the invuln) them out of the startup of the roll then since the high should be meaty?

 

Keeping in mind that I never really played much of the first game... I don't know a lot about the whole roll mechanic along with some other things specific to this game.

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Hey all,

 

Safe jumps:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qhei6nePito&feature=youtu.be

Credit to VR-Raiden in the Skype chat for at least the 2nd one.

Can you or someone double check the first one? Last night I was finding that for 236B > neutral jump ones like that, Narukami could actually DP them, but there was a timing where it would be safe. So it seemed like if he got it out as fast as possible it didn't work. I hope I'm just messing up because I really want a plain jump safejump to work.

 

The safejump in my combo is definitely a bit tricky. I think the key is having a very slight delay between jumping and doing the very last j.2B, so that you can airdash as early as possible afterwards and be very low to the ground.

 

Also, even though I recorded it and it was safejumping most character's DPs fine, I found that they can evasive action out, for some reason. I'm not sure if those have head invuln on frame 1 or if the j.B is being low profiled, though. Might not be a big deal, as I imagine you could punish it on reaction if you're looking for it.

It sounds like it isn't hitting truly meaty, I've run into stuff like that before. That's the only way I could see it not hitting a roll.

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It sounds like it isn't hitting truly meaty, I've run into stuff like that before. That's the only way I could see it not hitting a roll.

 

Yeah, this is what I figured, although it's hard to believe that the safejump would work if the attack wasn't even meaty. Imagine my surprise when I had the setup recorded and was able to roll out of it. I agree with mixedmethods though that it's probably not anything to worry about, since rolling is a big risk for them and we can probably punish it anyway.

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Yeah it's probably pretty easy to confirm they rolled and CH 5B punish or something. As long as they cant upback, which I'm sure they can't, it should be fine. I'll try that setup more when I get home today.

On that note I think it will be best to time 236D on these as late as possible such that you're jump-in or low combos to the first hit of 236D. That gives a ton of time to convert to a combo on hit, pressure on block, and gives most advantage if they delay teched the safejump.

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Alright thanks I'll try it again. I want to know if we can get that ender from other combos, the 5A one in my last post I don't think the 236B hits them high enough.

It's definitely strongest mixup-wise. Since there isn't realllly a mixup to meaty high or empty low, they can just switch to low block upon the delay they notice by not blocking a high. Empty throw gets that but they can break with quick reactions. It can still open them up, but if they're on point, having delay airdash into high makes it actually a mixup. That plus j.B/j.2B > fuzzy j.2B or j.B/j.2B > 2A/2B on tall characters.

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Alright thanks I'll try it again. I want to know if we can get that ender from other combos, the 5A one in my last post I don't think the 236B hits them high enough.

It's definitely strongest mixup-wise. Since there isn't realllly a mixup to meaty high or empty low, they can just switch to low block upon the delay they notice by not blocking a high. Empty throw gets that but they can break with quick reactions. It can still open them up, but if they're on point, having delay airdash into high makes it actually a mixup. That plus j.B/j.2B > fuzzy j.2B or j.B/j.2B > 2A/2B on tall characters.

So I got the set up off of sweep into the setup. An alternative would be 5b, 5c, 2ab, 236aa,236d, (dash) 236b, j.b.safejump. the dash is to get the proper height for 236 b.im trying to figure out other ways to do it. Besides throw

So basically anything into 5c, sweep, 236aa will get the setup to work from what im trying.it only works if they were already airbourne or something. So its up to doing this setup, another setup, or damage.this also only works if komo is not getting hit or recovering or something.

Edited by chemical ninja

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I'm getting this 236B > j.B safe jump on Yu consistently. You need to hit 236B at the highest point after 236D.

Ok I found the timing, unfortunately in doing so I also found that this high 236B hit seems character specific. I tried the same combo on Mitsuru and Yosuke and the 2nd hit of 236B missed. Seems to depend on their air hurtbox a lot. At least Yu is one of the ones it works on (if not only) since there is a lot of benefit to using it on him theoretically.

 

So I got the set up off of sweep into the setup. An alternative would be 5b, 5c, 2ab, 236aa,236d, (dash) 236b, j.b.safejump. the dash is to get the proper height for 236 b.im trying to figure out other ways to do it. Besides throw

So basically anything into 5c, sweep, 236aa will get the setup to work from what im trying.it only works if they were already airbourne or something. So its up to doing this setup, another setup, or damage.this also only works if komo is not getting hit or recovering or something.

I got this to work from 5A and 2A starter. The better the starter, the more damage you lose by going for the safejump most likely.

So now we have these which work on at least Yu:

Throw > dash 5B > 236A > 236D > 236B > neutral safejump j.B = 1829

2A > 2B > 5C > 2A+B > 236A->A > 236D > 236B > neutral safejump j.B = 2123

5A > 2B > 5C > 2A+B > 236A->A > 236D > 236B > neutral safejump j.B = 2452

4AAA > 236A->A > 236D > 236B > neutral safejump j.B = 1756 (meter gain option, 37 vs 32 from first attack, probably not worth it)

Worth noting that for the safejump j.B to be actually meaty you need to do it higher up than you might think, otherwise they can roll it, or jump back and get hit on the way up.

That lead me to test roll punishing though like in the airdash safejump setup.

 

Yeah, this is what I figured, although it's hard to believe that the safejump would work if the attack wasn't even meaty. Imagine my surprise when I had the setup recorded and was able to roll out of it. I agree with mixedmethods though that it's probably not anything to worry about, since rolling is a big risk for them and we can probably punish it anyway.

From what I found with neutral safejumps just now I'm betting they can upback and get hit by j.B in the air, but haven't gone back to testing this one yet. However if they roll, found you can do a very easy option-select. Just press 5B or 2B right after you input j.B, it comes out if they roll and CH punishes, doesn't come out if they blocked. Edited by VR-Raiden

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Ok I found the timing, unfortunately in doing so I also found that this high 236B hit seems character specific. I tried the same combo on Mitsuru and Yosuke and the 2nd hit of 236B missed. Seems to depend on their air hurtbox a lot. At least Yu is one of the ones it works on (if not only) since there is a lot of benefit to using it on him theoretically.

Yeah I found this as well when I recorded the setup against Yu then tried it on PerSHOna and the combo dropped at 236B. I always thought this was kind of char specific but then just decided I was being bad.

I did get a slightly lower 236B hit to work for the safe jump against Sho but I need to test it a bit more to be sure of it... Best to go for the j.A > j.B > j.2B safe jump if the starter allows it.

I found you can neutral double jump on that one to not cross up. Will be better against rolls and 236D should cover backdash but mainly just means you don't have to cross yourself into the corner if you're almost cornering someone

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Been messing with another route which borrows pretty much those side swap combo ideas, I like this route because it can easily be converted to a damage ender by replacing 214C with 236D. You can also opt for instant j.2B after the 236D and go for the airdash method (still haven't gotten that to safejump but didn't try for long today).

5A > 2B > 5C > 2A+B > 236A->A > 236D > 236B->B > 214C > walk forward jump > falling j.2B(forward jump cancel) safejump j.B = 3131

from 2A it does 2739

Depeding on how many frames you walk forward before jumping into j.2B, you will either land in front or behind after the forward jump cancel. Quick vid showing it:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9r6WzYjcPzk

On fuzzy j.2B, I found ways to combo off it meterlessly. Do 214C as you fall, then it will combo off the fuzzy j.2B and you can land 5A. From AoA, do the OMC as 214A+B+C so 214C comes out and you can follow up the same way. Quick vid showing this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iYt49_JCYLQ

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So quick question, does Ken have any true blockstrings? that's my issue atm as it seems everything he does has gaps in it (236C/D aside I guess).

Pretty sure 5AA, and 5AAA (hold back to stop Koromaru) is a block string, and it's what Japanese players use a lot, or use 5C and 2C to seal gaps, but you're better off trying to create frame traps, Ken can often sit outside of most characters 5A, DP and roll range with his pressure, so using Koromaru when you feel the opponent wants to press buttons is one of the things that makes Ken exceptionally strong, IMO. I will usually alternate between a Ken hit and stuff like 2C to pester my opponent until I feel like going in with a strong mixup or they crack and do something.

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There is actually a gap in 5AA, even on normal block, which was surprising to me. The only string of normals with no gap outside IBing is 5A/2A > 2B I think. But like PandaKingEX suggests, gaps aren't necessarily a bad thing since it's one of the main ways to hit people, as long as you keep their reversal options in mind. Blockstrings are something I still need to look at in depth.

Actually I think 2B > 5B is airtight too, but would need to double check.

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2A>5B and 5A>2B are  full blockstring  on normal block only

2A>2B is always full blockstring regardless of IB

and yeah, frame traps are the way to go with Ken, try to work your pressure with Koro in such a way that a gap that is easily exploitable by the opponent becomes a tricky frame trap. One simple yet very effective example is doing max distance 5A>2AB to push the opponent into either, roll, jab or jump your pressure, and then do 5A>5C>2AB. with the right timing you can punish all of those three options clean, and net an easy 3k combo into dog okis

 

also another mixup I like is 5A>jc>5C>air-turn> air back-dash>jB fake j2B/2A : if you do it right, the jB acts as a safe-jump, and you can also somewhat control on which side you'll fall if you do an almost point blank 5A (depending on whether you used forward jump or neutral jump before air-turning. for this you'll need to use a 5A without Koro's assistance, which is risky, so you should use it with caution.

 

Been messing with another route which borrows pretty much those side swap combo ideas, I like this route because it can easily be converted to a damage ender by replacing 214C with 236D. You can also opt for instant j.2B after the 236D and go for the airdash method (still haven't gotten that to safejump but didn't try for long today).

5A > 2B > 5C > 2A+B > 236A->A > 236D > 236B->B > 214C > walk forward jump > falling j.2B(forward jump cancel) safejump j.B = 3131
from 2A it does 2739

Depeding on how many frames you walk forward before jumping into j.2B, you will either land in front or behind after the forward jump cancel. Quick vid showing it:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9r6WzYjcPzk

On fuzzy j.2B, I found ways to combo off it meterlessly. Do 214C as you fall, then it will combo off the fuzzy j.2B and you can land 5A. From AoA, do the OMC as 214A+B+C so 214C comes out and you can follow up the same way. Quick vid showing this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iYt49_JCYLQ

 

Great finds ! thanks for sharing the techs !

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Made a vid with some 236C meaty options, but I need you guys to test and see just how effective they are.

Here's the link: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5o0H7vvcFko

 

And an explanation of each segment:

1. Opponent tries to up-back; meaty 236C hits due to jump-start frames; f/u w/ combo
2. Opponent doesn't block cross-up; f/u w/ combo
3. Additional meaty cross-up f/u combo
4. Opponent blocks meaty, takes AoA (use with care since can't make AoA safe since Koromaru jumps back when attack is blocked); f/u w/ AoA combo of choice
5. Opponent blocks meaty, takes low hit; f/u w/ combo of choice
 
Adjust followups (f/u) depending if opponent chooses to roll, block meaty then roll, DP, etc. Might make a vid to show these options.
Thanks for watching! Gonna post it to the video thread as well to catch the members who go there first. ;P

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There is actually a gap in 5AA, even on normal block, which was surprising to me. The only string of normals with no gap outside IBing is 5A/2A > 2B I think. But like PandaKingEX suggests, gaps aren't necessarily a bad thing since it's one of the main ways to hit people, as long as you keep their reversal options in mind. Blockstrings are something I still need to look at in depth.

Actually I think 2B > 5B is airtight too, but would need to double check.

yeah the gap in 5AA is the reason I asked this, but if 5A/2A>2B is air-tight then I'm good i'll start using that instead.

About Doge, how are you guys using him? do you have him out most of the match or do you actual keep him out till you get something going? I'm asking coz in some matchups they can just body him for free so I feel lost not being to use him to help me get in/start pressure.

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yeah the gap in 5AA is the reason I asked this, but if 5A/2A>2B is air-tight then I'm good i'll start using that instead.

About Doge, how are you guys using him? do you have him out most of the match or do you actual keep him out till you get something going? I'm asking coz in some matchups they can just body him for free so I feel lost not being to use him to help me get in/start pressure.

 

With blockstrings 5a/2a> 2b> 5b is airtight and from there I usually go for 214c/d if I think the opponent will jump, 5d if I think they'll stand there and then 236c, or 236D if I think they'll try to roll.

 

My use of Koromaru is very dependent on the matchup. Against characters like Mitsuru who beat Ken at neutral I use Koromaru as a neutral tool to annoy and look for openings. And against characters like Adachi and Yukiko who can destroy Koromaru I only have him out when applying pressure.

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About Doge, how are you guys using him? do you have him out most of the match or do you actual keep him out till you get something going? I'm asking coz in some matchups they can just body him for free so I feel lost not being to use him to help me get in/start pressure.

 

 

It's p. much completely MU based. Against Kanji, I mash 2C like a mad man, to force him to have to find another way to get in, all of which get blown up by Ken's DP, or even Maragidyne. Against Labrys, I go ham with Koro pressure until she gets meter and Awakening, then I back up and try to bait an air option to punish. Basically, find what works best for each MU, and go for there.

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Made a vid with some 236C meaty options, but I need you guys to test and see just how effective they are.

Here's the link: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5o0H7vvcFko

I need to test with these myself, but it looks like pretty standard stuff off a j.2B knockdown. It's susceptible to DP (except maybe the roll) and the high option (AoA) is going to be reactable in the long run, there isn't really a high-low mixup here. But blocked AoA(OMC) does give some options. Delay teching should also be considered, but if you're grounded you could potentially react and covert to another knockdown. That's something I was looking at extensively today, but from jump-in oki after j.2B.

Collapsed: oki tests:

In an effort to find decent high-low mixup while at the same time covering delay tech, this is what I've been looking at lately. I hope this doesn't get too long winded, there's a bit to it, but I'm curious how others think it looks compared to his other options. This is all tested on Mitsuru. And lots of theory fighter here so bear with me.

After a j.2B > land knockdown, you never have enough time to safejump from what I can tell. That's partly why I started out looking at real safejumps off j.2B jump cancel. However, that limits your high low options since you don't have access to air options anymore. So I started looking more closely and doing makeshift "safejumps" with j.2B > 236C/D > land > briefly step forward > forward jump while blocking > deep jump-in.

With the proper height j.2B hit, timing of 236D, and timing of your jump, you can "safejump" this way. These are all the scenarios I looked at. Combo used for testing:

5A/2A > 2B > 5C > 2A+B > 236C > 236B > 2B > fj.B > j.2B > meaty 236D (2831/2467) (make sure to have 236D come out immediately following j.2B so it hits delay tech)

air hit j.2B > input 236C/D > land, brief step forward > forward jump while holding back > they immediate tech and DP > you block their DP.

- You haven't input any attacks in air by the time DP connects if timed right. The brief step forward makes it so you're higher up when they're able to DP immediately after teching.

air hit j.2B > input 236C/D > land, brief step forward > forward jump while holding back > they immediate tech and block > 236C/D is blocked > they DP while you deep j.B/j.2B and it safejumps.

- You want this gap here to discourage DP after blocking 236C/D. The best timing will hit the opponent holding upback on ground, and hit roll attempt. If you want it airtight after 236C/D, you can do deep j.A or remove the brief step forward before the initial jump.

Now having established you can block their DP and hit upback/roll after they block 236C/D, you can theoretically attempt the following:

air hit j.2B > input 236C/D > land, brief step forward (optional) > forward jump while holding back > they immediate tech and block > 236C/D is blocked > you land 2A/2B for a low hit.

- The low option, they can DP/jump/roll it but you have the above safejump option to discourage those. Note the brief step forward is optional since you aren't pressing anything in air anyway, you block the entire way down. Can make this potentially trickier by land cancelling j.2B (j.2B has very noticeable animation).

air hit j.2B > input 236C/D > land, brief step forward (optional) > forward jump while holding back > they immediate tech and block > 236C/D is blocked > airdash right before landing > j.A/j.B/j.2B.

- The fake-low (high) option. They can DP/jump/roll it the same way as the low. j.A hits fastest, j.B slowest. j.2B probably nets most reward.

As for delay teching, the 236C/D will OTG if they attempt to delay tech at all when timed correctly. It seems difficult to react to whether or not they delay teched when going for your chosen jump-in option. But these are some scenarios that can work whether you react to them getting OTG'd or not, tested with 236D.

"safejump" j.2B option:

- j.2B will combo after the OTG 236D causing another knockdown. Following that, you can meaty 236C into either ground oki or meaty 236C into j.2B jump cancel safejump stuff. If they still stay down and take the OTG 236C, there doesn't seem to be anything you can do and they air tech immediately, so might be wise to delay, do 236D instead, or wait until they get up to do dog moves. Depends on if they like to delay tech twice or not.

"safejump" j.B option:

- j.B will combo after the OTG 236D and can be followed up with dash DP to bring them to corner, and the option to super cancel that for more damage is there. Probably difficult to hit confirm this, and whiffing DP is the worst thing you can possibly do, so maybe not that practical.

empty jump 2B option:

- 2nd hit of 2B combos after OTG 236D which leads to instant j.2B re-knockdown. This only works off better starters and if you didn't take the brief step forward before the initial jump. Following j.2B you can go for low airdash stuff if you want.

delay airdash j.2B option:

- The airdash j.2B will combo after the OTG 236D and re-knockdown.

Some other interesting thing here, if you dash jump airturn after j.2B you can land on the other side and do the same things.

EDIT:

another combo you can set this stuff up with,

5A/2A > 2B > 5C > 236A > 236C > 236B->B > 214C > forward super jump falling j.2B > meaty 236C (2949/2631)

also a funny crossup, running short hop over crouchers to crossup 2C > j.A. input as run 2C~2A+C, you have to get a little momentum going to get over.

Edited by VR-Raiden

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