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[P4AU] Ken Amada Gameplay Discussion

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Definitely interested in playing Ken/Koromaru, but it's a bit of an adjustment because they're more Relius like than Carl like. I didn't get to play with them a lot, but I definitely need to learn their combos and special moves. I can also see why Ken/Koromaru only need 2 Persona Cards, since they don't really need them too much.

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So in regards to the safejump oki I was talking about earlier on this page, I've recorded some combos/setups in training mode which I should be able to make a video of later this week (or the week after if shipping gets delayed). I found that if you double jump forward instead of doing the airdash j.B, you can get a pretty safe left/right mixup on them, which is super ambiguous thanks to Koromaru being offscreen. And even though Ken is way above them when the dog hits, a combo can still be picked up with 236AB. Ken can be blocking anyway in case they try to DP out (barring Teddie or maybe some other reversals I'm not thinking of right now), and the crossup version will also beat rolls (as their roll follows Koromaru).

Hopefully videos in a few days.

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So in regards to the safejump oki I was talking about earlier on this page, I've recorded some combos/setups in training mode which I should be able to make a video of later this week (or the week after if shipping gets delayed). I found that if you double jump forward instead of doing the airdash j.B, you can get a pretty safe left/right mixup on them, which is super ambiguous thanks to Koromaru being offscreen. And even though Ken is way above them when the dog hits, a combo can still be picked up with 236AB. Ken can be blocking anyway in case they try to DP out (barring Teddie or maybe some other reversals I'm not thinking of right now), and the crossup version will also beat rolls (as their roll follows Koromaru).

Hopefully videos in a few days.

Sounds cool, I found something similar before but I don't think I was as high up so Koromaru wasn't off screen. Have you looked at how it handles delay techs?

I feel the need to make another vid myself on the stuff from my last post, it's a wall of text.

also there is a thread for this kind of thing now if people want to start using it, the first post will eventually collect all useful setups like this. If you already posted something in here, you're welcome to post about it again in there if it doesn't get updated with the info. http://www.dustloop.com/forums/index.php?/topic/9429-p4au-ken-amada-okizememixupsgimmicks-thread/

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Sounds cool, I found something similar before but I don't think I was as high up so Koromaru wasn't off screen. Have you looked at how it handles delay techs?

 

Delay tech beats the double jump crossup. In the safejump setup, all it does is sandwich themselves between Ken and Koromaru, as the airdash goes over them. I'm gonna try to cover their options in my video, as there are definitely escapes to each setup, but there isn't a universal one.

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Delay tech beats the double jump crossup. In the safejump setup, all it does is sandwich themselves between Ken and Koromaru, as the airdash goes over them. I'm gonna try to cover their options in my video, as there are definitely escapes to each setup, but there isn't a universal one.

Cool looking forward to it.

 

Have we found any application for Shadow Ken yet? I need that floating P3 Ken B)

There are some combo vids with him in the video thread first post, so far I don't see him being that good unfortunately but it's still early.

 

Collapsed: oki tests:

In an effort to find decent high-low mixup while at the same time covering delay tech, this is what I've been looking at lately. I hope this doesn't get too long winded, there's a bit to it, but I'm curious how others think it looks compared to his other options. This is all tested on Mitsuru. And lots of theory fighter here so bear with me.

After a j.2B > land knockdown, you never have enough time to safejump from what I can tell. That's partly why I started out looking at real safejumps off j.2B jump cancel. However, that limits your high low options since you don't have access to air options anymore. So I started looking more closely and doing makeshift "safejumps" with j.2B > 236C/D > land > briefly step forward > forward jump while blocking > deep jump-in.

With the proper height j.2B hit, timing of 236D, and timing of your jump, you can "safejump" this way. These are all the scenarios I looked at. Combo used for testing:

5A/2A > 2B > 5C > 2A+B > 236C > 236B > 2B > fj.B > j.2B > meaty 236D (2831/2467) (make sure to have 236D come out immediately following j.2B so it hits delay tech)

air hit j.2B > input 236C/D > land, brief step forward > forward jump while holding back > they immediate tech and DP > you block their DP.

- You haven't input any attacks in air by the time DP connects if timed right. The brief step forward makes it so you're higher up when they're able to DP immediately after teching.

air hit j.2B > input 236C/D > land, brief step forward > forward jump while holding back > they immediate tech and block > 236C/D is blocked > they DP while you deep j.B/j.2B and it safejumps.

- You want this gap here to discourage DP after blocking 236C/D. The best timing will hit the opponent holding upback on ground, and hit roll attempt. If you want it airtight after 236C/D, you can do deep j.A or remove the brief step forward before the initial jump.

Now having established you can block their DP and hit upback/roll after they block 236C/D, you can theoretically attempt the following:

air hit j.2B > input 236C/D > land, brief step forward (optional) > forward jump while holding back > they immediate tech and block > 236C/D is blocked > you land 2A/2B for a low hit.

- The low option, they can DP/jump/roll it but you have the above safejump option to discourage those. Note the brief step forward is optional since you aren't pressing anything in air anyway, you block the entire way down. Can make this potentially trickier by land cancelling j.2B (j.2B has very noticeable animation).

air hit j.2B > input 236C/D > land, brief step forward (optional) > forward jump while holding back > they immediate tech and block > 236C/D is blocked > airdash right before landing > j.A/j.B/j.2B.

- The fake-low (high) option. They can DP/jump/roll it the same way as the low. j.A hits fastest, j.B slowest. j.2B probably nets most reward.

As for delay teching, the 236C/D will OTG if they attempt to delay tech at all when timed correctly. It seems difficult to react to whether or not they delay teched when going for your chosen jump-in option. But these are some scenarios that can work whether you react to them getting OTG'd or not, tested with 236D.

"safejump" j.2B option:

- j.2B will combo after the OTG 236D causing another knockdown. Following that, you can meaty 236C into either ground oki or meaty 236C into j.2B jump cancel safejump stuff. If they still stay down and take the OTG 236C, there doesn't seem to be anything you can do and they air tech immediately, so might be wise to delay, do 236D instead, or wait until they get up to do dog moves. Depends on if they like to delay tech twice or not.

"safejump" j.B option:

- j.B will combo after the OTG 236D and can be followed up with dash DP to bring them to corner, and the option to super cancel that for more damage is there. Probably difficult to hit confirm this, and whiffing DP is the worst thing you can possibly do, so maybe not that practical.

empty jump 2B option:

- 2nd hit of 2B combos after OTG 236D which leads to instant j.2B re-knockdown. This only works off better starters and if you didn't take the brief step forward before the initial jump. Following j.2B you can go for low airdash stuff if you want.

delay airdash j.2B option:

- The airdash j.2B will combo after the OTG 236D and re-knockdown.

Some other interesting thing here, if you dash jump airturn after j.2B you can land on the other side and do the same things.

EDIT:

another combo you can set this stuff up with,

5A/2A > 2B > 5C > 236A > 236C > 236B->B > 214C > forward super jump falling j.2B > meaty 236C (2949/2631)

On this stuff, I made a quick vid demonstrating it, along with some new things. So depending on the combo, you might not be able to time j.2B such that after they block 236C/D, it hits roll and upback grounded, so they have the roll option. You can OS to throw their roll, but timing is extremely specific otherwise your throw can get DP'd. You want to do it as late as possible but not so late that throw comes out after your j.2B connects. I've been finding combos that go into this oki from different starters.

I noticed something unfortunate about 236C/D just now, after it's blocked Koromaru has to retreat back for a little bit. That makes it so after a hit or block with this oki, you can't use Koromaru immediately, so combos and pressure following it will have to be modified accordingly. This can be mitigated with 236C+D however, since Koromaru stays in place and is usable immediately after it's blocked.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZPqZMctWTBY

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So has anyone been experimenting with how to get max damage from Koro's Maragidyne super? It seems that, the closer your opponent is to Koro, the more damage it does. Plus, with how easy it is to pick up/continue a combo after SB Maragidyne...well, there might be some applications here.

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Depending on where Koro is, there really isn't really much you can do after SB Maragidyne and still get worthwhile damage besides DP > another super. SB Maragidyne combos are a S.Ken thing IMO, meter is much better spent elsewhere for normal ken.

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Depending on where Koro is, there really isn't really much you can do after SB Maragidyne and still get worthwhile damage besides DP > another super. SB Maragidyne combos are a S.Ken thing IMO, meter is much better spent elsewhere for normal ken.

Off of raw SB Maragidyne, you can actually confirm into a small combo for not much effort. Even at max range, you have time to dash up>236B>2B into air series. However, I noticed that, while messing around with it in training mode, I was getting something like 3.9k raw when Koromaru was right on top of them. When I get back from class, I'm planning on messing around with it, to see if this damage boost will make it a better ender in combos, or if it'll be neglible at best.

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I'm sure this is already known, but you can AoA D and then use his special to bring them back. I wonder if any kind of looping is possible?

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So on oki, I've been way over-complicating things, you can do everything I was looking for from a properly spaced and timed meaty 214C. Saw it in a vid and actually looked at it in more detail. The only real drawback is it requires cutting combos short.

The problem with 236C/D oki that I was looking at is when they block it, Koromaru has recovery time so you're combo and more importantly pressure after can't use him right away. 236C+D doesn't have the Koromaru recovery but that costs meter so not always worth it. Koromaru doesn't do the recovery animation from 214C.

Example combo:

2A > 2B > (5B) > 5C > 2A+B > 236A->A/B > 236C > 236B->A > meaty 214C, 2292-2612 depending on if you use 5B or A/B add-on (it's more annoying with B but more damage)

Timed properly, 214C will be meaty whether they delay tech or not. They can't roll, they can't upback. Dash jump immediately upon recovering from 236B->A, while blocking to block immediate tech DP. Come down with any jump move, land 2A, or delay airdash. They can't delay tech long enough to avoid a safe jump-in. You can even get the 2A to be airtight if they don't IB the 214C. Delay airdash always leaves a gap but since Ken's airdash is short you can block a DP from your airdash if you don't press anything. It seemed like the only hole was that if they get absolute max delay on their tech they could DP a land 2A. But if they miss the window to delay tech, they do the slow wake-up and have to block. (tested on Mitsuru, Narukami so far)

I'll make a clean post about it with combos from different starters in the Oki/Mixups/Gimmicks thread tomorrow.

The other stuff I was looking at before might still have use somewhere, but this is way easier and does a lot of the same things.

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So after playing for about a month, and with a better understanding of what makes Ken a good character, I can safely say there is no way this character is better than top tier. HOWEVER. He is also just barely worse than them, so he's about where Teddie was in the last game imo. The main difference is going to be on ease of use, and what MUs he dominates. In the ones he does well in, he does extremely well, and can often control the flow of the match with ease. The MUs he has problems with, however...they make things extremely rough for him. Anyone who can whiff punish with ease is going to be a problem as well (whiffed a 236A? Congrats, you just got supered by Sho/Aigis). He can definitely compete with a lot of the commonly used characters, but some of the lesser used ones (Yukari, Marie) might offer some trouble.

All in all, it might be worthwhile to pick up a sub if you main Ken. Hopefully for me, Margaret will cover what I need to cover. Other good choices might be Aigis, Sho, Chie, Narukami. But that's just my take on it. I'd say he's probably the best out of the newcomers, even with his flaws. His control of space is really just that good.

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Ok so I got the basic concept of Ken stuff down.

 

Simple combos to use:

 

non 2A/j.2B starter combo:

 

starter > 236AA > 236D > 236B > 2B > j,A > j.B > j,236D > j.2B land 236B

 

Combo for sho's, mitsuru, yukari (doesn't work on them) don't use follow up on 236A

Sho note: Neutral jump on the 2B part or it will drop.

 

2A/j.B/prorated combo route.

 

starter > 236A > 236D > 236BB

 

air conversions

 

starter > j.A j.B > (dj.B) > 236D j,2B land run 5A/2B j,A > j.B > j.2B

 

CH DP/throw combo because you need this when you score CH or land a throw

 

DP > 2AB > 236A > 236C > 236BB 

 

Oki stuff.

 

214C oki works on normal ground combo conversions

 

236D oki works on no tech/late tech or air conversions

 

2C is for people who never wants to tech, carefully time it on their tech so it meaties.

beats DP's without you having to stick and arm out and if its blocked lets you do a high/low.

 

If they block 236D oki its usually fine you can do delay strings to regain use of the dog.

 

Don't forget frame data 2A is +1 so its quite handy.

 

Anyway I am done for now, may be back to answer questions later.

I don't know.

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Probably has something to do with when the Ken player hit 5D during the hit that KO'd Koromaru. At least, that's what I'd guess :s lol

 

Perhaps?

Looks like the dog was already doing 8D, and killing the dog by Yu's fireball is common. What makes it more strange is that the dog super armored through the fireball and still got 8D. If someone can react this glitch, it seems that it can be really useful.

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I've added a bunch of combos to the first post in combo thread. So far, it's 214C oki from a bunch of different starters and damage routes with meter. The routes are pretty common between multiple starters so eventually it will probably look neater and just refer to a common route rather than listing the same sequence again and again. Midscreen only so far.

Also there are a couple no Koromaru and Koromaru returning ones.

I haven't added any air confirms yet, but you can do things like A.X.I.S mentioned into 236D oki. It seems difficult to get 214C oki off them, but still need to look at it.

Also still need to add character specific notes, biggest thing so far worth knowing is CH B+D > 2A+B probably.

That glitch is interesting. Need to try recreating it later.

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I haven't added any air confirms yet, but you can do things like A.X.I.S mentioned into 236D oki. It seems difficult to get 214C oki off them, but still need to look at it.

 

 

Air hit starter >j.B > j.236D > j.2B > land 236AA > 236C > 236BB 

 

doesn't work on sho's probably not work on labrys either.

 

Also sho and labrys hitboxes are problematic, I'll figure it out soon.

 

It works on sho but its a weird delay.

Labrys requires you to do it fast.

Also corrected notation.

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Air hit starter >j.B > j.236D > j.2B > land 236AA > 236C > 236BB 

 

doesn't work on sho's probably not work on labrys either.

 

Also sho and labrys hitboxes are problematic, I'll figure it out soon.

 

It works on sho but its a weird delay.

Labrys requires you to do it fast.

Also corrected notation.

ok using that, I got this for example:

 

air hit j.A(1) > j.B(JC) > j.B(input 236D immediately after) > j.2B > 236D hits > run 2A+B > 236A~A > 236C > 236B~A(input 214C immediately after) > meaty 214C

= 3012 damage

if you take out ~A after 236A you lose 200 damage, but makes it a bit easier to time so that 214C is spaced just right. The 2A+B is also optional, but I think it actually helps on Sho/Labrys. Also uses ~A ender before 214C which is better for that oki.

On a ground hit which you can't combo to sweep since Koromaru is unavailable immediately (but on screen), or you didn't get CH/crouch hit, this seems to work just fine for the same oki, but with 214D.

2A > 2B > 5B > 236A~A(input 214D immediately after) > meaty 214D

= 1403 damage

works just like 214C oki except from your dash jump you'll be at about max 2A range. Hits meaty unless they max delay tech with proper timing. Also the last hit of 214D can't connect so Koromaru is available immediately after.

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https://www.evernote.com/shard/s422/sh/6346b769-1a1f-4fe1-9f81-ce5904298afe/ee4eb744660d5b329321ea9293e71a36

 

Kubo's Ken guide.

 

The last section mentions some good blockstrings. Google translate is all I have to work with but lots of stuff can be made sense of.

Buckling/bending = crouch

absolute = 214C/D

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Trying to figure out how to actually open people up with this character, I spent most of my import preview period on Rise unfortunately.  This is like day 2 Ken stuff mostly but so far:

 

2A/5A 2B/5B hop j.B looks to be airtight (if they don't IB) and heavily + on block, which means it's possible to do something like 2A 2B hop j.B 5A jump forward 2C > mixups.  Unfortunately I don't think there's any way to make airdash j.B airtight so it looks like you'll either be baiting the DP mash or just going for something safer but less ambiguous like IAD j.B > j.2B or 2A.  Looks like jump forward j.B JC j.B 5C j.2B works as a fuzzy too but it's pretty hard to time, j.B has to hit pretty deep.

 

236C+D is pretty + but still not enough to prevent them from mashing DP vs. airdash mixup.  You can delay it so the spin covers your airdash but then they can roll on reaction to the jump.  214C+D seems kind of useless as a mixup tool outside of setting up a meaty unfortunately since it doesn't have that much blockstun and the spin doesn't hit them till super late unless they jump into it.

 

Ken's AOA is super bad and not really worth mentioning but it's worth going for sometimes I guess.  Since he has super armor on the move itself you can delay Koro followup a lot to cover only the recovery since they won't be hitting you out of the startup anyway.  Obviously don't try it vs. Yu or anyone else with a good super they're likely to mash on defense.

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Hop cancel does seem pretty useful for him. In that Kubo guide he listed 1 blockstring with it with 2B(1).

I looked at some 236C+D stuff recently and posted things similar to what you're describing it sounds like. Yeah couldn't get gapless airdash mixup in pressure, but off corner you can with meaty 236C+D after DP or 236236A knockdown which is pretty cool. They can't be OTG by it there either for some reason.

If you want you can post stuff like that in the oki/mixups/gimmicks thread (I think I'm just going to rename that to "How to Hit People" so it's more encompassing).

Thanks for sharing the findings.

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