[P4AU] Ken Amada Gameplay Discussion

[NecroTheReaper]

Still new to this series in general, is dash hop>air turn>j.A/j.B on crouching a decent crossup or do the system mechanics stop this from working?

[Pen_Ninja]

I do it in game a bunch, works out for me.

[NecroTheReaper]

Kk. There any way to combo off it without OMB or a specific setup?

[Pen_Ninja]

5A...?

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FuG_o0CSp4w

[NecroTheReaper]

Huh... well I derped. I can do it now, but that's some weird timing. I thought I could just mash 5A lol.

So is hop a requirement to keep up pressure as Ken? So many buttons in this game, until today I kept hitting 2AB instead of 2AC.

[Justice7541]

I dunno if it's 100% necessary for the entire cast but it's definitely good for Ken.

[Dopples]

 

[6:27:23 PM] The Finest Brew: So

[6:27:36 PM] The Finest Brew: I'm experimenting with S-Hold with Ken

[6:27:47 PM] The Finest Brew: You actually get a brief-ish window of invuln when you use it

[6:28:38 PM] The Finest Brew: And since it recovers quickly (Since it's Mediarama A), you can use this to surprise your opponent for a brief moment

[6:29:35 PM] The Finest Brew: Seems GREAT for baiting out DPs

[6:29:48 PM] The Finest Brew: Though you can't exactly use it on reaction to things

[6:30:37 PM] The Finest Brew: Still, it's a tool to keep in mind

[Justice7541]

Uh there's a big bar that fills up while you hold it.  If anyone's DPing you while you've got the big blinking S-Hold bar onscreen he deserves to eat massive damage.

[Dopples]

Uh there's a big bar that fills up while you hold it.  If anyone's DPing you while you've got the big blinking S-Hold bar onscreen he deserves to eat massive damage.

Hey, it makes them pay attention to one more thing. Anything that adds to how you can scare you opponent is a good thing, even if it's got a niche use. Plus, you don't have to use it, even if the bar does fill up. You can easily just cancel it out with another button press. Like, say...5C. And if they're waiting for Mediarama to come out, you get free pressure.

[Justice7541]

So this is kinda obvious is retrospect but Ken can plink 5C~AC to do a roll covered by Koro attack. Good as a pressure escape plus if Koro actually counterhits them you can actually combo off it.

Add "can combo off roll" as another of the silly Ken shouldn't be able to do.

[Zephyrion22]

So this is kinda obvious is retrospect but Ken can plink 5C~AC to do a roll covered by Koro attack. Good as a pressure escape plus if Koro actually counterhits them you can actually combo off it.

Add "can combo off roll" as another of the silly Ken shouldn't be able to do.

 

Still less silly than Shabrys and her knuckle train roll mixups. Another fun mixup involving the same thing is 2A then dash 2C~CD. since 2A is + 1, you get either the throw just before the 2C touches, or you get the 2C before (to bust throw reject attempt, beat 5f  normals or IB mash, and prevent jump-outs) and you can still combo after the throw whiff (jA as a tight link only on normal hit, but pretty much anything you want on CH). Both options win against rolls, but lose against DP, but you can just bait it after 2C and reset pressure after it. It's really good if the opponent respects you enough, and if you use it sparingly ! Only real issue is that it is timing specific depending on Koro's position (you have to literally plink it if Koro is between their legs (corner mostly), but you 2C,dash then throw on normal distance (midscreen). This mixup shines mostly after 214x.

[Justice7541]

I don't think Knuckle Train roll mixup works on block? It's purely an offensive thing. I was pointing out the 5C~roll thing as a defensive option.

[Zephyrion22]

true, just me hating on the character more than anything xD

[Justice7541]

So lately I've been thinking that Ken's frames are just too stupidly good for no apparent reason.  Obviously he's gonna be able to do stuff that ordinary characters can't thanks to having a puppet (like combo off throw) but seriously:

 

- 236B is + on block even without dog

- 236X~B is + on block even without dog

- He can combo off his CH DP meterless and it's actually legit damage with oki

- He can combo his ground throw without even using the dog, and off his airthrow on CH

 

There's literally no reason why he needs any of these things considering he's a puppet char.

[A.X.I.S.]

236B is slow as balls on block.

236A/B is a ex move, they are usually really  good for meter.

DP is death on whiff so its nice that he gets a little reward on hit since he's near helpless/dead on block/whiff

Some characters can combo off ground throw meterless and CH air throw isn't as common as you think!

Not in my experience!

[NecroTheReaper]

I think he was talkin about the B followup to 236A/B is + for that second one. Either way I'm new to this series in general, but even with all these good tools he seems to just stack up as a solid character. Saying he doesn't need any of them when he's not considered super OP A-S tier (at least not now) just sounds masochistic lol. Plus, hes similar to Relius imo, and Relius has his leis which is 30f startup and +1. Don't forget those are multi-hit moves, so if they block the first hit, its practically a free IB.

[Justice7541]

Ken's definitely up there on the tier list.  Not gonna bother with exact placements but I'd say he's pretty close to the top, just under Yu and Yosuke.  Not that it matters, I was just imagining the Arcsys dev going "okay so Ken can use his dog to combo off a throw, but WHAT IF he could ALSO combo off it WITHOUT the dog?"

[Justice7541]

Nothing on Ken from loketests?  Guess no one cares as usual.

[Zephyrion22]

Unfortunately, only good JP Ken player I've seen is Kubo, and he didn't upload any loke note. It will be the same for other console characters. They are played but we don't know who plays them and are willing enough to upload info about them. Time will tell !

[Agito]

I just got back from the loc test and took some notes, here's what I found:

 

 

- Vile Assault has faster start-up, decreased recovery

- Mediarama now has a hitbox and it hits the opponent

- Now you need to hold D to have Koromaru exit from the screen

- Koromaru now executes his attacks when you release the C-button (Doesn't work with Skills)

 

These are all true, but I'd like to explain some of them. For the holding D to have Koromaru exit, if you just press the D button and not hold it Koromaru will do a backflip. It's the same one he does when recovering from a normal and you can't have him do anything until he recovers. Also with mediarahan having a hitbox, it lasts throughout the entire duration of the attack. It's neutral on block as well (at least the A version is) and can be OMC'd into 236A midscreen for a combo. The A and B version on hit simply blow the opponent away while the SB version actually wall bounces in the corner and can be picked up with 2B.

I also found a few more buffs as well as some nerfs.

 

Buffs:

- Dog super is now invincible

- 236A/B hitbox extended downward?

I managed to disarm Naoto's ground trap with it even though she blocked the attack. Not sure if this happens in the current version since I've never tried it out. I'll do some testing later.

 

Nerfs:

- ALL Koromaru's normals have recovery on block (He does the backflip after every blocked normal)

- DP can't be comboed off of Counter Hit even in the corner.

- Dog meter recovers slower

[Justice7541]

I just got back from the loc test and took some notes, here's what I found:

 

 

These are all true, but I'd like to explain some of them. For the holding D to have Koromaru exit, if you just press the D button and not hold it Koromaru will do a backflip. It's the same one he does when recovering from a normal and you can't have him do anything until he recovers. Also with mediarahan having a hitbox, it lasts throughout the entire duration of the attack. It's neutral on block as well (at least the A version is) and can be OMC'd into 236A midscreen for a combo. The A and B version on hit simply blow the opponent away while the SB version actually wall bounces in the corner and can be picked up with 2B.

I also found a few more buffs as well as some nerfs.

 

Buffs:

- Dog super is now invincible

- 236A/B hitbox extended downward?

I managed to disarm Naoto's ground trap with it even though she blocked the attack. Not sure if this happens in the current version since I've never tried it out. I'll do some testing later.

 

Nerfs:

- ALL Koromaru's normals have recovery on block (He does the backflip after every blocked normal)

- DP can't be comboed off of Counter Hit even in the corner.

- Dog meter recovers slower

 

2C having recovery is expected I guess although it is a pretty major nerf.  Not that he doesn't deserve it.  I guess using SB dogespin and C dogewheel are gonna be a lot more important in pressure now.

 

Mediarama being neutral on block is actually pretty nice especially if it's airtight from a B normal.  It'd allow him to end his blockstrings safely without Koromaru or OMC which is gonna be a lot more important now that Koro is out of the picture after a blocked normal now.

[indie_animator]

Thanks for all the info.  General subjective question: Was it hard for you to learn this character? How long did it take?  I've been considering him as a sub, but am just not sure. He's a bit different than the more straightforward heavy-hitters I'm used to. 

[Justice7541]

Ken's probably the easiest puppet character in any Arcsys game.  That said he's still a puppet character so he might be a bit harder than say Narukami.  He lacks in cancel options and most of his pokes have very long recovery on whiff so you will have to get used to using Koromaru to cover gaps in pressure and to set up stuff, rather than simply being able to cancel into a jump or a special or something.  His confirm "windows" are also a bit shorter than most (hitting an AA 5A requires you to immediately jump cancel since nothing else combos from 5A air hit, etc.).  He's also lacking in "easy" mixups (no spammable overheads like Narukami Raging Lion, no command throw, etc.) so you're gonna have to learn "manual" mixups like throw baits and empty jumps.

 

That said, he hits ridiculously hard, doesn't really need to adjust his combos for midscreen or corner, doesn't really need to manage meter (since he does so much meterless), his pressure is super safe and his mixups don't really require super hard reads, etc.  So he's an easy character in the sense that you can just play your single-player flowchart game and basically ignore what the other guy's actually doing.

[indie_animator]

Ken's probably the easiest puppet character in any Arcsys game.  That said he's still a puppet character so he might be a bit harder than say Narukami.  He lacks in cancel options and most of his pokes have very long recovery on whiff so you will have to get used to using Koromaru to cover gaps in pressure and to set up stuff, rather than simply being able to cancel into a jump or a special or something.  His confirm "windows" are also a bit shorter than most (hitting an AA 5A requires you to immediately jump cancel since nothing else combos from 5A air hit, etc.).  He's also lacking in "easy" mixups (no spammable overheads like Narukami Raging Lion, no command throw, etc.) so you're gonna have to learn "manual" mixups like throw baits and empty jumps.

 

That said, he hits ridiculously hard, doesn't really need to adjust his combos for midscreen or corner, doesn't really need to manage meter (since he does so much meterless), his pressure is super safe and his mixups don't really require super hard reads, etc.  So he's an easy character in the sense that you can just play your single-player flowchart game and basically ignore what the other guy's actually doing.

Alright, thanks for the rundown.  I've fought a good Ken in TV World (TheBestNinja), and will consider sticking with him, doing some Training, etc.

[Kikirin]

From a Dengeki article on the loketest, it was mentioned that Koromaru is invincible during the backflip from tapping D. 

 

http://dengekionline.com/elem/000/000/960/960801/