[P4AU] Ken Amada Gameplay Discussion

[Pen_Ninja]

Elizabeth's ground lasers will tag Koromaru which makes that MU hard-ish. Once I got in though, I spent a lot of time with Ken in the air and Koro coveting the ground so her DP was even less of an issue than usual.

[Dopples]

Elizabeth's ground lasers will tag Koromaru which makes that MU hard-ish. Once I got in though, I spent a lot of time with Ken in the air and Koro coveting the ground so her DP was even less of an issue than usual.

Yeah, that definitely seems to be the case. Ken's going to prove a nightmare for anyone without a solid aerial DP I think.

Oh, and he probably does extremely well against Kanji so long as he doesn't get tagged once.

[mixedmethods]

There was a Kanji-Ken match during Evo that someone described as hell for Kanji ("one bad guess and you'll never get him off you"), and I'm guessing Koromaru beats Kanji's DP, so... poor Kanji. Wish I'd seen it.

[Dopples]

Yeah, I fought a few at EVO, and...well, it was bad xD

On that note, I can see him doing decently against Aigis as well, since j.A actually stops quite a few of her approach options, while 236A/B makes using 2B in neutral a nightmare. Plus, her DP seemed useless against Koro pressure, so take that for what you will.

[Balguna]

So, what are people's thoughts on matchups so far, both good and bad?

 

Right now, I can see Yu being a potential thorn in Ken's side - he has quite a few ways to stuff Koro, and DP both shuts out Koro pressure and anti-airs Ken if he tries that during pressure. Yosuke might be another tricky matchup, since he can dance in the air all day and rain kunai on both Ken and Koro while being able to get in close fairly easily, where Ken seems to suffer.

 

On the flipside, as mentioned, Kanji seems to buckle pretty hard against Ken pressure, and I imagine Junpei might also have issues. I might suspect Akihiko might have a hard time too, but can't really tell about that yet. Don't know how the zoners will fare, but I'm guessing Yukari will fare the best, while Yukiko the worst, but it's all speculation right now.

[mixedmethods]

Right now, I can see Yu being a potential thorn in Ken's side - he has quite a few ways to stuff Koro, and DP both shuts out Koro pressure and anti-airs Ken if he tries that during pressure. Yosuke might be another tricky matchup, since he can dance in the air all day and rain kunai on both Ken and Koro while being able to get in close fairly easily, where Ken seems to suffer.

Actually, Yosuke may suffer against Ken. Dopples wrote a bit about that MU in the news thread. It seems like Yosuke and Aigis are going to have to be very on-point with air-blocking and air approaches, as Ken's range means they're vulnerable to being tagged on approach and retreat. Aigis does have her Orgia backdash (fast, sends her airborne and out of range, 7f invuln... could probably be punished if Ken has the meter and positioning to super), and new Orgia air roll, though, and Ken's 2B isn't looking as strong as his j.B and j.A, but I'm not sure how much good that does Yosuke and Aigis. It reminds me of Yosuke and Aigis vs. Shadow Labrys: Yosuke and Aigis dominate the air, but against Shadow Labrys, jumping becomes very risky due to Flame of Hades; projectiles may stop movement of the persona, or, in this case, the dog, but at least for Aigis, 2B is no longer a magic Get the Hell Off Me button (it halts Asterius and annoys Shadow Labrys players but it isn't as effective as it is in other MUs)... Yosuke's kunai could prove more of a challenge, as they deal more damage than Aigis's 2B (particularly with SB kunai inflicting poison), as long as Yosuke doesn't get hit out of the air. Both Aigis's 2B and Yosuke's kunai would stop Koromaru from approaching, but that's not necessarily a solution. Since I'm most familiar with Aigis, I'll stick to her -- 2B would knock Koromaru down, but the risk there is that Ken set Koromaru as a trap planning to roll 2B or potentially use Charge Thrust, destroying 2B's purpose as a GTFO option. The other issue is whether or not hitting Koromaru counts as Aigis's 2B successfully hitting, as it's jump-cancelable on hit only. 2B > jc j.A isn't going to work if Ken is sufficiently far away or if hitting Koromaru doesn't register as a successful hit. The available data strongly suggests (I'd say "all but confirms," but there may be something we've yet to see) that you must actually hit Ken, as we've seen Ken escape supers and normals thanks to Koromaru being at his feet and forcing opponents to whiff moves.

On the other hand, Yosuke is always crazy fast and Aigis gets to ~fly in Orgia, so Ken's slower start-up time on ground normals may allow Yosuke and Aigis to bait out his moves and jump Koromaru for a punish. Of course, we don't know what Ken's dash-cancelable moves are, and his run speed isn't bottom-tier, so this is pure theory. Yosuke's 2B could give Ken grief if Ken takes to the air, and Garudyne now auto-tracks for a CH from fullscreen at ridiculous speed, so Yosuke isn't helpless. Both Yosuke and Aigis are going to need to be careful with their j.Cs (or in Aigis's case, learn the spacing), as Ken looks like he's going to excel at breaking cards, and persona-broken Aigis is sad times. That being said, Pandora Missile Launcher might have some application in this match, as it Fatal Counters, hits full screen, and will shut down anything Koromaru and Ken are doing other than blocking.

To add another bit of speculation, I think Shadow Labrys and Teddie are in for a tricky time in this MU. Koromaru normals deal more than enough damage to break Asterius's auto-guard, so Shabrys has to have Asterius block or risk having set-ups and cards destroyed; Koromaru may be able low profile Flame of Hades the same way he can get past Yukiko's fans; and Ken out ranges Shadow Labrys on the ground. For Teddie, items may not be as effective if Ken sends out Koromaru or times 5B/Charge Thrust in prediction, which could give Ken an easy way to pick off cards and shutdown a lot of Teddie's game.

Narukami is still Narukami, though. 5B > 5C dash cancel > MY BUTTONS ARE BETTER THAN YOUR BUTTONS is always going to be a pain in the ass. The one upside is that Narukami really can't zone (no, Zio is not zoning) and he's more meter-dependent now. 2C should stuff Zio, and Narukami has to deal with a character who can beat him at the "my normals out range your normals" game, plus watch his Fatal Recoveries... it's still Narukami, but low-level netplay Narukami may have to learn to block and be patient. I can imagine some pretty hilarious punishes to a rolled Cross Slash. Raging Lion might be avoidable if Koromaru is significantly in front of Ken or in a mid-air move -- Narukami hits Koromaru, Ken rolls or dashes the move completely, then punishes.

[Balguna]

I believe you do have a point about Yosuke. There's still Dash Spring to  add to the equation (I imagine SB will be able to blow through Koro, but that's speculation), but I guess it might not be as simple as I thought. Garudyne only tracks on SB version though I believe, so it's really going to come down to Yosuke managing his meter well.

 

I definitely agree on Ken being a potential thorn in Teddie's side, considering how much I already dislike fighting Mitsurus as him. I don't think it's an impossible matchup, but it's going to depend greatly on what tools each character has on their side (items vs. dog). Teddie does have ways to hit Ken from a distance (TVs, potentially Bearscrew), but most of them are Fatal Recovery or might cost Teddie a card. 2D Teddie might be useful for forcing Ken to whiff a move and then punish, but it might not be as useful if Koro is covering Ken. What Will Come Out? will likely be the safest way to get items out provided Ken doesn't hit Kintoki-Douji in the 5f of startup, even if it costs 50 meter. I do think the matchup leads slightly in Ken's favour from what I can tell, but it'll be easier to see once the game actually gets proper playtesting.

[mixedmethods]

The effectiveness of EX Dash Spring depends on whether the game considers Koromaru a projectile. EX no longer goes full screen, so there's that to consider as well. As far as the projectile part goes, the best comparison I can think of is Aigis's Megido -- she's not a projectile at that point, but she has a massive hurtbox, which is why a fan from Yukiko can destroy a YOLO Megido. (You can try it training. Have Aigis do a Megido at range, send out a fan, and laugh. If you ever watch Aigis do a raw Megido, everything but the exterior flames is a hurtbox.) Of course, Yosuke is fast and it's only ten frames until the projectile invuln kicks in, but if he collides with Koromaru, I think he'd be knocked out of the run. Anyone know for sure?

I definitely agree on Ken being a potential thorn in Teddie's side, considering how much I already dislike fighting Mitsurus as him. I don't think it's an impossible matchup, but it's going to depend greatly on what tools each character has on their side (items vs. dog). Teddie does have ways to hit Ken from a distance (TVs, potentially Bearscrew), but most of them are Fatal Recovery or might cost Teddie a card. 2D Teddie might be useful for forcing Ken to whiff a move and then punish, but it might not be as useful if Koro is covering Ken. What Will Come Out? will likely be the safest way to get items out provided Ken doesn't hit Kintoki-Douji in the 5f of startup, even if it costs 50 meter. I do think the matchup leads slightly in Ken's favour from what I can tell, but it'll be easier to see once the game actually gets proper playtesting.

Ken vs. Teddie is a MU I'm really interested in, along with Ken vs. Shadow Labrys. Kuma's 5B is ridiculous, but so is Ken's, and both players can step back and let either their persona or dog take over at match start as they feel each other out. Teddie changes everything, though, so... up close, Ken has ridiculous pressure, but Teddie has better reversals and that DP. My Kuma experience is relatively limited, though, as I haven't fought a good one. If Ken has meter, Fire Breath might stop Teddie from approaching after he puts down the item obstacle course.

One question for those who played and tested Ken: any thoughts on how meter-dependent he is?

[Dopples]

He doesn't feel terribly meter dependent, but having the option to use Maragidyne as a punish from SJ height is really good. Other than that, OMC is always good to have handy if you go for a punish with AoA, but mistime it.

As for Ken vs Shadow Labrys, it will all depend on how well Koromaru can deal with Asterius. If he's able to break Asterius from SJ height with Koromaru specials/attacks, I imagine it'll be super hard for her to get going.

[Balguna]

It should be noted that Teddie's DP got nerfed; it's now blockable and I believe Teddie is at a disadvantage if it's blocked. Koro also recovers from getting knocked out faster than Kintoki-Douji.

 

Teddie does have fantastic normals, it's all a matter of using that Persona wisely to land the damage where it counts. The question is if Koro can low-profile bat with 2C; if so, if Ken can play a zoning game Teddie could have a difficult time coming in without EX Teddievision.

[KingofCups]

I was getting the feeling that it is very possible to annoy Ken from the air in that match vs Junpei, but that is pure speculation. Also, Ken is a friggin Dragoon. His DP is Jump. I wonder if it can be used to similarly just not exist while ugly, horrible things are happening on the ground. But Koromaru and Ken spend a lot of time absent from the field, which I find funny.

 

Also, I'm wondering what the properties on hit are of 214C. If it washing machines them down to the ground like Vergil's DP M, that has obvious specific combo application.

[Pen_Ninja]

Ken's anti-air (2B) is terrible... Invuln kicks in late and ends very early and the hitbox doesn't move above your hurtbox until really late as well. I found a better AA was jump back > j.A (which leads into a full combo with dj.B > j.2B > 2C > etc) but that's potentially not great depending on the angle of the jump-in.

 

In terms of leaving the screen while stuff happens, I wouldn't recommend it...

The only super I can think of that lasts long enough for Ken to go through his entire whiffed DP animation would be Teddie's unblockable super... which might not even let you punish... just get out of there.

I don't remember clearly but I think 214C carried them downwards on air hit but not fast enough to keep up with the falling Koro so in the end they end up still like head height by the time 214C ends if you hit them say in the middle of the peak. I feel it'll definitely be good for combos and do more damage than 2C re-launches.

[mixedmethods]

Good stuff, Pen_Ninja. Thanks for the info, as always. Given Ken's AA (or lack thereof) and his j.A, I'm ... happy I'm an Aigis main, because I'm used to going air-to-air.

I'm planning to download the Japanese version and see what I can learn from challenges and training mode. I know Ninja mentioned 214C straight-up going through supers, so I'll definitely be looking into that. Anyone else planning to hit the lab early or have any requests? Assuming region lock isn't an issue, of course....

[Pen_Ninja]

I have a physical copy pre-ordered but I'm probably going to buy a PSN version to get in ASAP.

[VR-Raiden]

That's unfortunate to hear about his 2B, though I wonder how 2C works as another anti-air option when Koromaru is nearby.

I'm downloading it too (assuming region free) but I won't actually have much time with him til after that weekend, Summer Jam just had to be then

 

Looking forward to hearing what everyone finds. I've been wondering if he will have any fuzzy guard setups.

[mixedmethods]

That's unfortunate to hear about his 2B, though I wonder how 2C works as another anti-air option when Koromaru is nearby.

I'm downloading it too (assuming region free) but I won't actually have much time with him til after that weekend, Summer Jam just had to be then

 

Looking forward to hearing what everyone finds. I've been wondering if he will have any fuzzy guard setups.

VR, are you our forum mod? Awesome!

At launch, I was planning to start a combo thread with the standard template so that optimal combos, challenge mode combos (and solutions, if necessary), etc., would be organised in the top posts, as Pen_Ninja and I are going to try to collaborate on testing. But now that we have a mod, would you rather I wait until you return? I imagine we'll also be able to start MU threads pretty quickly as well, even if they begin a bit bare bones. I don't mind doing the tedious "updating first post as new tech as found" grunt work but since we have a mod, I figured I should defer to you and ask if you'd rather delay forum overload until you have more time to, well, mod. Because fun first, then modly duties.*

*Autocorrect gave me "mouldy duties" ... probably more accurate.

[KingofCups]

Good stuff, Pen_Ninja. Thanks for the info, as always. Given Ken's AA (or lack thereof) and his j.A, I'm ... happy I'm an Aigis main, because I'm used to going air-to-air.

I'm planning to download the Japanese version and see what I can learn from challenges and training mode. I know Ninja mentioned 214C straight-up going through supers, so I'll definitely be looking into that. Anyone else planning to hit the lab early or have any requests? Assuming region lock isn't an issue, of course....

 

The way I had it imagined in my head for antiairing was 214C/D jump back j.A/B, 214C/D DP, or 214C/D dash. But only getting to try these can really tell me what weaknesses these ideas have.

[Dopples]

If you're anticipating a jump in, I can see early 214C/D>j.A stopping a LOT of approaches actually. 2C seems mostly for combos, since while it's fast? It also shoots out some, and makes it hard to rely on. Kinda wish I had the chance to go to WNF to play, but Walnut's such a long trip from where I am. :s

Edit: 2B seems like it's more for mix-up and continuing pressure. It does seem to bring Ken pretty close to the ground, so perhaps it can be used to low profile some moves?

[Pen_Ninja]

The way I had it imagined in my head for antiairing was 214C/D jump back j.A/B, 214C/D DP, or 214C/D dash. But only getting to try these can really tell me what weaknesses these ideas have.

 

214C/D is WAY too slow to anti-air with on reaction D:

Our best options are to either jump back j.A or straight up DP. Though with some more training mode, I may get the knack of 2B... it seems like it's possible to use, it was just kind of hard to tell when trying to learn in live matches.

[Dopples]

Yeah, as a reversal, it's garbage. But if you use 214C/D preemptively, then jA? It covers a surprising amount of space for a large amount of time. 

[Pen_Ninja]

pre-emptively, yes.

But would j.A be the best option to go with it? 214C would already cover pretty much the same space as j.A would.

214C and 5B or 236A would cover a ton more space and wouldn't require you to hard-read a jump because if they don't jump then they have to deal with 236A...

[Dopples]

If you simply want to create a wall? It'd probably be the best choice. It'll likely depend on what the situation calls for though, tbh. Mind you, I haven't played since EVO, so my memory of how high 214C/D goes could be way off.

[Pen_Ninja]

My memory tells me 214C/D went about as high as a normal jump or somewhere between normal and super jump height...

I also haven't played since EVO

Oddly enough, no events in Australia are big enough for... uhh... anything.

[VR-Raiden]

VR, are you our forum mod? Awesome!

Yes, one of them haha. I'm currently looking for a co-mod and have asked about it. The general process seems to be people who are already mods are appointed if possible, and if the position can't be filled by any, new ones are considered. Still waiting to hear if any current mods are really interested. If I don't have anyone by the time this drops, I'd be happy to recommend someone from in here who is already expressing interest and a desire to do forum work. Main reasons I want a co-mod: for times like next weekend where I can't do work, and because once Xrd drops my duties with that will skyrocket. I'll keep you all posted.

As for creating threads, I would say leave that to the mod(s), since they have proper templates to match other forums. I've been waiting on those to be finalized, and to get a co-mod before making threads. However if me or my co-mod somehow fail to have threads ready by the time people have their hands on the game, feel free to make any and we can edit as necessary.

I and others planning to play Ken definitely appreciate all the info gathered in here already so thanks for that.

Looking forward to talking Ken tech with you all and helping make his forum/wiki top notch

[KingofCups]

I mean, it can't hurt to have Koro doing things as insurance while you try your main method of anti airing. Assuming you can press Koro buttons whenever, it could always be a nice backup.