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Antiquarian

[P4AU] Tohru Adachi Gameplay Discussion

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With Mandala up, unblockable Ziodyne resets are great midscreen, but they're terrible, if not useless, in the corner. A better thing to do is spin state reset (costs 75 meter, thank you based Canine).

 

http://youtu.be/uCrFDaCmyN4

 

Simply combo into Heat Riser B however you like (no 5C(4) routes though!), then 2C > 236ABA. (You can 2C > 2AC > jC if you want. Remember that the jC has to be delayed so that they don't recover before you tackle them.) Run over and hit them with 5B when they stop spinning then 236BB into the combo of your choosing.

 

Coming out of spin state, your only options are block and burst (no DP, no jump, no attack, no nothing). No blocking because of rage; no bursting because of silence. Unlike unblockable Ziodyne which can be countered in some instances, you can't counter this at all. It's all guaranteed.

 

Think of it as your reward for pushing them to the corner.

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Pre-Awakened Mandala. Don't get people too excited Drake pls ;_;

 

But yeah I didn't know about the spin state options where so dumb. I always had my doubts if it was a legit reset or not.

 

Another good punish would be (After spin state) 5B>236BB>5C>2C>J.C>5C>2B>J.B>J2C>J2D. It's featured in a lot of Pet's videos and deals a bit more than 4K IIRC.

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I had some strange strange problems with the 236AB spin state not working properly. After certain extended combos the spin state doesn't occur, instead the opponent is simply out of the combo standing there. Most of the times this happened lead to a sweet non-scaled Ghastly Wail, but any DP or a short hop will beat it, so it's not worth it. What causes it to happen, hitstun scaling? 

Example combo that ends with this reset: 
j.C > 5AA > 5B > 5C > Heat Riser B > 5C > 2C > 2D > 236ABA > reset
 

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I had some strange strange problems with the 236AB spin state not working properly.

 

It's the 2D that's causing you problems. 2D > 236ABA will cause the opponent to recover faster than you do.

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I had some strange strange problems with the 236AB spin state not working properly. After certain extended combos the spin state doesn't occur, instead the opponent is simply out of the combo standing there. Most of the times this happened lead to a sweet non-scaled Ghastly Wail, but any DP or a short hop will beat it, so it's not worth it. What causes it to happen, hitstun scaling? 

Example combo that ends with this reset: 

j.C > 5AA > 5B > 5C > Heat Riser B > 5C > 2C > 2D > 236ABA > reset

 

 

Actually I think 5C might be the problem here.

 

Corner Spin Combo: 2AB>214AB>5B>2C>hop 5C>5b>2b>2c>2d>Spin to GW should work fine.

 

5C adds a lot of P1 (I'm not sure if this is the right term so I'd also use "combo scaling" here) so It might be messing up with some of your combos.

 

2D is not impossible to combo off but it is pretty hard. If you want to do it remove all of innecesary filler to go ASAP to 2D:

 

Corner 2ab>214AB>5B>2B>2C>2D> Spin is a legit route.

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It's not about either 5C or 2D specifically (there are combos that involve both of these that work, even if you omit just the second 5A from my previous example, it will result in a regular spin state), so I was just curious if it's programmed somewhere in the game that spin state doesn't happen after X condition is met (ammout of hits, scaling, etc.). I'm not too familiar with the way ASW games do scaling (never quite got around understanding it completely), so I was curious if anyone knows why this happens.

2AB > 214AB > 5B > 5C> 2C > hop > j.5C > 2B > 2C > 2D > 236ABA also works, and does some sweet damage (3805 with Heat Riser, I'm not sure if poison damage is dispalyed on the counter), though the timing for j.5C is hard on this one (at least for me, practice makes perfect). It's not quite the best you can get (if you catch them crouching with 5A or 5B, there are slightly better options, depending on if you want the spin state or not).

But, if you add even a single hit to this combo (a FC 5A or crouching 5B for example, but pretty much anything at all at this point), the spin state won't occur. Guess it has something to do with this proration thing... gotta finally read up on it.

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Yeah it's a proration issue, personally I'd reccommend 'never' going into 236ABB after ending with 2D since 2D is a whopping 2000 P2 and if total proration goes over 3400 the next hit is an immediate tech no matter what, in longer combos you could see why 2D would be an issue. With the spin state in particular, you have to make sure that 236ABB's tackle does 'not' send total proration over 3400+ or else the spin state does not apply.

 

j.C > 5AA > 5B > 5C > Heat Riser B > 5C > 2C > 2D > 236ABA > reset in this one for example, it becomes 300+200+100+100+300+200(?)+100+2000+100=3400 then spinstate, though I'm not exactly sure as to 5C's SMP penalty, I'm somewhat believing it's 100 rather than 50. Which is fair imo. But that would lead this combo to have exactly 3400 total proration before the spin state hit, which = immediate recovery which = PROFOUND SADNESS. Reccomendation would be to just skip 5AA and go 5A> 5B

 

2AB>214AB>5B>2C>hop 5C>5b>2b>2c>2d>Spin This one, has 300+200+100+100+100+150(?)+100+100+2000+100=3250, this is assuming 5B's SMP is 50 which would be a safe assumption. It's under 3400 total so it works. Woosh

 

But yeah, if you're gonna go for spin state stuff, safest bet would be to just end with j2C/2C rather than j2D/2D if you've used a pretty long combo. But be aware that a full C animation is also pretty harsh on the proration. Blah blah..back to the lab /o/

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Also showing a midscreen possibility though honestly this route will likely never see the light of day in actual matches. 

 

In other news, I've updated the frame data page with regards to SMP on the 236A/B series. For those who don't feel like wandering over there due to not caring about the numbers, I'll just jot down the important bits.

 

First, 236B~A/B has SMP on 'two' parts, the very first hit, and the first hit of the grab portion. So basically, you 'never' want to do two of them in one one combo, even if one's a grab and another just the slide, or vice versa. Second, 236AB~A/B is also the same case, SMP on the first hit (because it, too, can cause a slide), and on the first hit of the grab, however, this is where some tricky things come into play. Both 236B~A/B and 236AB~A/B share an SMP flag on the grab part. Meaning you 'cannot' do extended combos involving both (e.g. 5AA 5B 236B~A/B *filler* 236AB~A/B 214214D) without cutting the filler a bit. It doesn't cause too much an issue but is still something to keep in mind for my fellow lab goers.

(On a personal note regarding this this is what makes 236B~A/B wallbounce combos into Mandala->Wail not very possible qAq, sad doge, but eh, that's what we have Spin state resets for I guess >_>)

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After fighting a turtle Aigis (which was one of the most stressful experiences I've had playing this game) I've come to realize that blockstring mixups are the most important thing you need- if you can't crack open their defense, you're just dead in the water against players who aren't the regular riff-raff.

 

So I think there should be an exhaustive discussion on all the different possibilities. Please contribute or comment if you have anything to say.

 

Off the top of my head;

 

5A jump cancel

2A ticks into 214C/D

2A stagger pressure (not very good because 2A starter combos stink)

2A ~ 5A/5B

5AA ~ 214C

5AA > 236B > 214C

5AA ~ 5B

5AA > 5C

5AA > DP

5AAA

5B > 5C

5B (full) > 5C

2B jump cancel

2B > jC (> j2D)

5C > 214B

5C > 2AB

5C > 2D

2AB > 214A

 

And various delays and/or SB gunshot applicable all over.

 

There doesn't seem to be a safe place to bait DP (i.e. press buttons, then block), as most of our normals are unsafe if left uncanceled, aside from possibly 5C (which isn't truly safe).

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Here's a couple things I tested out.

- You can short hop/dp between Adachi's 5AA > 5AAA, no IB necessary

- You can short hop/dp between Adachi's 5C > 2AB, no IB necessary

 

I typically check people mashing DP/buttons/roll with 5B(3) > 5C > delayed 214B (comes out if 5C is blocked), but people paying attention won't be mashing at that range.

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- You can short hop/dp between Adachi's 5C > 2AB, no IB necessary

 

I've had this happen to me before, unfortunately...

 

The short hop vs 5AAA seems safe to my knowledge (they just get to blockstring you, maybe). DP through is a different matter depending on character, though I don't know if it would be worth using 5AAA often as a bait as 5AAA doesn't leave you with a lot of options.

 

Short hop vs 2AB seems safe as well (though I am usually buffering gunshot, so it's more risk...)

The bad thing about DP though, is that (from my testing) it seems viable to DP the sweep on reaction. i.e. you are only going to catch mashers by stopping at 5C...

 

Could 2D possibly be used as a sweep fake? They're both crouching, but it doesn't seem solid.

 

Delayed 214B after 5C to catch mashing or walking seems to be the best bet. 2C could possibly be used vs people who try to jump out of 214B... But you leave yourself pretty open if they stay grounded.

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If they block 5AAA, you can do 214A to keep it safe or do 5AAAA > 236236A etc on hit. In any case, it loses to the same stuff 214C loses to, so I guess I can mix 214C up with 214A, 5C, or just 5B/2B to continue pressure after 5AA.

 

Delayed 214B after 5C is nice and safe, but it sucks that you give up pressure. If you get a counterhit with 214B, you can dash and link a 5B afterwards, though that might only work at certain ranges (works after 5AA > 5B(1) > 5C(1)). If the opponent knows how to deal with 5C > 2AB, it seems like you are stuck doing 5C > 214B. At that point, 5C > 236C is completely useless. After doing 5C > 214B a few times, the opponent will hopefully be conditioned to just crouch block and wait for your next move after 5C, so maybe doing 5C > 2D or 5D isn't a bad idea and you might be able to go for sweeps again. I don't know if you can do a blockstring after 2D at that range, but you could fish for a counterhit gunshot. I have to look into this more.

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Oh, 5B can also be dash canceled, I forgot.

 

I don't think I'd use that often, though.

 

 

Short hop cancel into late jC seems to confer quite a bit of advantage (as would 2B, late jC). though, because of the pushback it seems this is only truly viable in the corner (or after 2AB).

 

Cool thing, if you start a combo with 2A (yuck) just head into autocombo. As long as you don't finish with super, you get your hard knockdown and you get your safejump.

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Hey Adachi players. Would anyone be available to do a FT10 with me around 8pm EST today? The MU scares me to death due to the fact I have no idea how to deal with Adachi's DP or jC. I'm a lowly Aigis player BTW.

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Hey Adachi players. Would anyone be available to do a FT10 with me around 8pm EST today? The MU scares me to death due to the fact I have no idea how to deal with Adachi's DP or jC. I'm a lowly Aigis player BTW.

 

I'm game. I could record it for you if you want too.

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Thanks for the matches, Antiquarian. I saved all the replays and have a better grasp on how to fight him.

 

Thank you as well. I haven't had an extended set with Aigis in Ultimax so it was a good learning experience for me too! I'll be getting the whole set uploaded to YouTube, I'll post the link here and in the Adachi critique thread once it's ready. We should get more games in again sometime! It went down to the wire.

 

Edit: Video is ready.

Edited by Antiquarian

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Cool, I appreciate the recording. 

 

I should have listen to Drake when he told me not to test j.C with 2B that often but couldn't help it. Also noticed you jC punished one of my blockstrings ending in sweep fairly consistently which left me confused. Can't wait to wait to see the vid when I get home.

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Thank you as well. I haven't had an extended set with Aigis in Ultimax so it was a good learning experience for me too! I'll be getting the whole set uploaded to YouTube, I'll post the link here and in the Adachi critique thread once it's ready. We should get more games in again sometime! It went down to the wire.

 

Edit: Video is ready.

What are the exact inputs for the combo at http://youtu.be/qreMDeYJ05E?t=2m7s

I saw this same combo done a ton of times in 1.1 combo video but I have no idea the timing to pull it off, is it like 2C > jC > j. C? If that's the case, it must just be a really hard to get timing

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What are the exact inputs for the combo at http://youtu.be/qreMDeYJ05E?t=2m7s

I saw this same combo done a ton of times in 1.1 combo video but I have no idea the timing to pull it off, is it like 2C > jC > j. C? If that's the case, it must just be a really hard to get timing

 

It's a hop cancel not a jump cancel

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What are the exact inputs for the combo at http://youtu.be/qreMDeYJ05E?t=2m7s

 

5AA > 5B > 5C (1 hit) > 236236B > 665C > 2C > 2AC > 5C (turns into jumping C because of hop) > 5B > 2B > 2C (turns into jumping 2C because 2B recovers airborne)

 

The timing is not that bad, once you get used to it. Even my hands can do it with consistency, it's not hard.

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