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[CT] Carl Clover Tactical Discussion/Questions/Help

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But I meant miscounted in the sense where it'll say it's a black beat, but it's in actuality a legit combo.

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But I meant miscounted in the sense where it'll say it's a black beat, but it's in actuality a legit combo.

imo they're not miscounted

just that the tech frame was probably really short (like 1 frame) or something and nobody asides from CPU can get that exact timing.

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imo they're not miscounted

just that the tech frame was probably really short (like 1 frame) or something and nobody asides from CPU can get that exact timing.

Zeero, I'm aware that there are situations that grant the opponent to tech (even if it's a 1 frame window). But I'm also FULLY aware there are such things as miscounted techs in GGAC and MBAC. It's a situation in which the game suggests that the combo isn't legit because it thinks the opponent was granted an opportunity to tech, when in actuality, they were in a legit state of hitstun. I'll have to go through the character boards again to find out which characters have this side effect in some of their BnBs. I think A.B.A is one of them, so I'll start looking in there. Melty Blood infact has a list of these (although conditions may be different by larger or smaller margins) and it's no surprise that it exists in GGAC. Which actually when I think about it, endorsed even more reason to release GGAC+ to the states.

EDIT: Now that I look at that statement again. How can you imply that 1 frame is too much for a GGAC player to perform? GGAC is full of 3 frame window executed actions and there are plenty of 1 frame maneuvers as well, eg: Anji's multi-butterfly, Bridget's yo-yo glitches, etc etc. Not to mention some FRC's allow for slightly different behaviors on individual frames, eg: Jam's 2D.

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calm down? i said imo for a reason?

and since, ur 1frame arguement is not valid because FRCs are done when you KNOW its coming. Its not like you do those stuff mentioned on reaction off a random moment. You know u're doing the jam 2d, you know u want to double butterfly, you know you want to do the glitch. Do you know when a 1f opportunity to tech is coming? thats saying you have to predict it coming, and teching in that 1f based on your prediction, i dunno about u, but i think recovering is either mashing during the combo in which case u'll never get that 1f tech, or waiting to see openings in which u won't react and see a 1f tech opportunity. Unless you're implying that bridget players do yoyo glitch on reaction when they see the yoyo hit, and so.

Anyhow, im not here to argue, i'm just offering my opinion, no need to get all worked up.

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calm down? i said imo for a reason?

and since, ur 1frame arguement is not valid because FRCs are done when you KNOW its coming. Its not like you do those stuff mentioned on reaction off a random moment. You know u're doing the jam 2d, you know u want to double butterfly, you know you want to do the glitch. Do you know when a 1f opportunity to tech is coming? thats saying you have to predict it coming, and teching in that 1f based on your prediction, i dunno about u, but i think recovering is either mashing during the combo in which case u'll never get that 1f tech, or waiting to see openings in which u won't react and see a 1f tech opportunity. Unless you're implying that bridget players do yoyo glitch on reaction when they see the yoyo hit, and so.

Anyhow, im not here to argue, i'm just offering my opinion, no need to get all worked up.

Was only sharing my input as well. I also meant no heat in the discussion. I apologize if I came too strongly about it.

Although I do want to bring attention to the "my statement isn't valid" because these on the receiving end of the conditional situations of recovering in just a single frame can actually be quite consistent. Anyway, even if my statement were inaccurate, I was assuming that if it was on a more consistent basis such as a combo that has a tendency to black beat often. This is why I opted to disagree to one measurement or another on the matter. Give credit or not.

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easiest way to settle this is to try those "tendency to black beat often" combos in training mode with recovery set to back and see if it still happens. I've never seen a black beat combos in training mode which is what makes me believe my statement.

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My take:

I very well could be wrong. But, this is how I understand it.

-Recovering Back is the fastest way to escape a combo because you actually recover a frame or two FASTER with back tech as per front/neutral tech'n. SO,IF the opponent is neutral tech/Forward tech, and the player does a combo within the very very small window. A black beat will be legit because the opponent refused to recover backwards.

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That makes sense. But I always thought front and back teching were the same. I do know that neutral teching is slower.

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A little (well not really) post about what I THINK about Carl and what to pay attention to when EATING THE LOOP AND HOW TO GET OUT that i wrote on my local thread because people are saying i'm a cheap bastard :CA:

1. Where you & Nirvana's clap is: Basically when Carl throws and Nirvana's clap is UNDER you, a simple tech + airdash will escape. If nirvana is pretty far back and only the edge of the clap may hit you, you can try to tech and airdash (unless CARL is in the corner, because when Carl throws and hes in the corner, YOU get pushed back away from corner.) Good carl player's wont make these mistakes tho. And always don't eat weak resets with air recoveries from my combos.

2. Height when Carl airthrows you: The higher Carl is, the harder it is to do the loop. Basically its supposed to work like this. When i throw you, you should be at nirvana's height, so that when i airdash, i push you towards nirvana. If nirvana isn't there, i will more than likely airdash UNDER you, failing my loop. Also, if the throw is high, then it takes more time for Carl to land and then he can't do 2C to relaunch. Same logic applies to resets. Higher Carl is, harder it is for him to reset coz it takes more time for him to land, dash, then 2C. If i'm too low and your hitbox is big, you might even end up getting the ground throw-break animation (i've done it more than enough times lol). Resets would also be harder if you have a big hitbox because u'll hit the ground faster.

3. Nirvana's life bar & your life bar: I'm not sure exactly how it works, but i think if you continuously use nirvana, moves actually cost more and more to use. So if nirvana is at low life, and you're at high life, dont even bother teching. Like that buppa vs dio match (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jPJJZ4qzu4I @ 1:23), theres no way he would have died from the loop with that much nirvana life, yet he teched, ate a reset, THEN died.

4. When to throw-break/burst: If you're gonna burst, do it when you see me start my 2C, thats probably the only safe time to burst. As for throw breaking, sometimes you just gotta take a chance. The corner throw loop seems pretty impossible to escape as i did it last friday, like 30+ hits on arakune lol. But again, if its impossible to escape anyway, might as well just try it and pray i screw up. Its easier to screw up a reset than a relaunch. Also imo, if you're gonna throw break, do it on the first throw of the 2throw sets. This is because if you do it on the 1st throw break, theres a chance that i didnt expect it and then end up airdashing. Or i mistime the dash and end up air dashing. Throw breaking on 2nd throw will ALWAYS let me ground dash because my airdash count is gone and its pretty easy to time (basically my dash gets buffered).

5. Who you are using: certain characters are harder to loop/reset on because of their hitbox/falling properties. Rachel, Ragna, Haku are known characters to escape the loop. I find taokaka harder to loop because she drops pretty quickly.

Just my opinion.

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What I've noticed lately is that throw loops are more characters specific than I imagined. We've seen the set-up evolve over the past few months, but I just realized how it's meshed with the opponent as well.

ABOVE THE ORB is the stationary relaunch against Tager, H-man & Bang

Uses J.B+C to pick up.

UNDER THE ORB is best against Noel & Carl

Uses 2C to pick up.

IN THE ORB is the rest of the cast

Uses RC, J.B+C to pick up.

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For bigger characters like Tager and Hakumen, is it possible to clap loop them fairly above the clap? Mainly I'm asking if they tech, they will get hit with the clap because of their size (assuming Hakumen doesn't counter), can you dash back in and regrab them?

Also thanks Zeero for tip #2, I've been having trouble with the loop and that clears up alot of questions for me.:)

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For bigger characters like Tager and Hakumen, is it possible to clap loop them fairly above the clap? Mainly I'm asking if they tech, they will get hit with the clap because of their size (assuming Hakumen doesn't counter), can you dash back in and regrab them?

Also thanks Zeero for tip #2, I've been having trouble with the loop and that clears up alot of questions for me.:)

Keep in mind that those were tips for escaping the loop and not pulling it off :v:

But anyway, I'm not sure what you're asking, but it seems like you want to airdash back in after they tech, get hit by the clap and then regrab to start your reset?? I haven't really tried that nor seen it anywhere but my guess is that it would work since their hitbox is so huge... Only on tager though, for other casts, if you throw above the clap, its fairly easy to airdash out if they know what they're doing... Reality is, anything works on tager :TG:

Kyle: you can also get V-13 with throw->clap->repeat if you superjump the throw. Not sure why you need the superjump, probably because you float more instead of dropping?, but I can only pull it off if i super jump :psyduck: Not too sure what you mean by Under the orb and in the orb though...

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Sweet deal about V-13 on top!

See 00:20 for "under the orb" set-up

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NIb5_CeUsU0&feature=channel_page

See 00:16 for "Above the orb" set-up

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Er8W21xEkVE&feature=channel_page

See 01:10 for " In the orb" set-up

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3nTbINEd9TE&feature=channel_page

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Keep in mind that those were tips for escaping the loop and not pulling it off :v:

Well I figure by learning how they get out, I can figure out what I need to do (or not do) to keep them in the loop. I always kept my height fairly high, and thus when they teched I couldn't figure out what was wrong. In retrospect its pretty obvious, but I'll do that alot. Basically I'm saying thanks for punching me out of ignorance.:v:

Another question, my friend claims that he's seen taokaka interrupt the punching special (236236D) by mashing A. Dunno how much health Nirvana had left, but anyone know the special is interruptable otherwise?

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i thought all bursts dont kill?

they actually kill on defensive burst?

Late reply, but Carl can kill on defensive burst because he can make Nirvana attack as the opponent gets knocked away. Id_asz always knocks me into the multi-hit drill move on his defensive burst and I'm pretty sure I got KO'd by it once.

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You cannot kill the opponent off of an offensive or defensive burst. The combo has to end, but you can chip them to death afterwards.

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easiest way to settle this is to try those "tendency to black beat often" combos in training mode with recovery set to back and see if it still happens. I've never seen a black beat combos in training mode which is what makes me believe my statement.

I just did this with A.B.A in training mode. I performed a combo like this with the dummy's recovery set to Neutral/Back/Front (all 3, for a more detailed test) and got the miscounted black beat.

MOROHA MODE:

2K, 5S, 2H, j.S, j.H, 41236S.... After I land, I've went from one of the following routes

loop - j.S, j.H (Sometimes had to get start with 5S to keep combo going)

or just for the heck of it (Though this isn't her BnB)

5S, 2S, 412H

I found myself in most occassions going into whichever combos from the Moroha Mode starting combo, that the miscounted black beat occurred =/

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Why hasn't the list of pros been updated? You'd think they would at least put "highly damaging loops/grab trap loops in there or something

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I guess there is miscounted beats then. Thats news to me.

squirrel: i dont think first post is up to date...

Kyle: Good finds. I dunno how i'll be able to pull it off by delaying the throw that much :psyduck: but i'll keep those in mind :v:

edit: i actually just recalled one time i defensive bursted someone into nirvana's 4D and i followed up with a combo and it didnt kill, so likely the chip dmg killed u.

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Why hasn't the list of pros been updated? You'd think they would at least put "highly damaging loops/grab trap loops in there or something

Yeah, please forgive me. Give me a list of pros that should be added to the first post and I'll update.

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Yeah, please forgive me. Give me a list of pros that should be added to the first post and I'll update.

Has insane situational damage and pressure.

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Pros-

Great Supers

Burst Safe opportunities

Summon and combo with Nirvana in same string (w/o tension)!

Allegretto Cancel ... Allecan!

Huge Damage output

un-blockables on pressure and throw break with Nirvana

un-blockables w/o Nirvana

Huge combo potential

Has Throw Loop

Can seldom escape Carl's Throw loop

Kara Cancel shenanigans

Situational Burst Kills

3 overheads

4 lows

Cons-

Numerous bad match-up

No reversal w/o super

No run, w/ awful recovery (hops Like Johnny from Guilty Gear)

limited pokes

limited anti-Air's

limited solutions to situation he's forced into.

Nirvana counts as projectile type

Lacks speed

Lacks significant range w/o Ne~san

Lowest HP in the game: 9500

Overall he is VERY dependant upon Ne~san. Than he's a good character. =)

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My comments on above list... kind of pessimistic though.

Pros-

Great Supers

Burst Safe opportunities

Summon and combo with Nirvana in same string (w/o tension)!

Allegretto Cancel ... Allecan! -> Not really a pro, more like a necessity to be good

Huge Damage output

un-blockables on pressure and throw break with Nirvana -> hard and impractical

un-blockables w/o Nirvana -> 100% tension required and easily escapable by properly timed counters

Huge combo potential

Has Throw Loop

Can seldom escape Carl's Throw loop

Kara Cancel shenanigans -> again, not a pro, more like a necessity to be good

Situational Burst Kills

3 overheads -> but only 2 is good...

4 lows -> but only 2 is useful...

Cons-

Numerous bad match-up

No reversal w/o super -> Even reversal supers don't have invincibility, but might get lucky and trade hits

No run, w/ awful recovery (hops Like Johnny from Guilty Gear)

limited pokes

limited range

limited anti-Air's

limited solutions to situation he's forced into.

Nirvana counts as projectile type

Lacks speed

Lacks significant range w/o Ne~san

Lowest HP in the game: 9500

Lowest Guard Gauge in the game

Hard to get in range with Ne~san if opponent decides to run away

Overall he is VERY dependant upon Ne~san. Than he's a good character. =)

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