[CP2] Carl loketest discussion

[wiredgod]

Wait, if I read correctly above 5B is confirmed jump cancellable on block, but 5C is not.  Isn't this a buff overall?

[Raiza57]

Ok based on the video, we can also confirm that fucco automatically lifts the opponent into the air, pushing them in a downwards momentum. This is more good news, if used as a neutral tool, the opponent will be forced to tech; which gives us more time to close the gap in between our opponent. Also the Jc nerf doesnt seem as bad as the jb level reduction. Now its hitstun is almost non-existent. So during the endpoints of our combos, using Jb in the air will cause the opponent to tech before the second Jb can connect. This limits us to using j2c>jc only, near the end of our combo string. As for the jc, it looks like from double jump height, the opponent is teching somewhere near Ada's chest. Meaning that 46D probably will not combo from max height, but volante and 6D are both still doable; provided the timing is done correctly. 

 

Oh right, I almost forgot. In regards to what you said earlier JG, 6D having a bad P1 has little to do with 6D leading into our strongest combo routes. Combo wise, any hit into 6D>brio/volante combo route will net more damage than any ground string.... Well, I guess this is speculation. Since we havent received the new frame data for Ada's attacks yet. Also, 2D causing hard KD is much better in my opinion. Makes for a much more consistent follow up combo. 

[JyakotuKurayami]

So it's safe to say CP2.0 Carl is still viable and probably remains A tier?

[sinder]

So it's safe to say CP2.0 Carl is still viable and probably remains A tier?

 

I would say solid A, definitely.

 

His mixup game is rather ridiculous right now, which is probably why they nerfed his combo lengths for almost all of his routes. If he had CP 1 combos, he would definitely be S tier.

 

I'm still waiting for 5k combos that don't require OD though. It doesn't look like they'll be practical tho from the vids I'm looking at. However, it is very easy to get 5k with the new unblockable reset (reset damage, not total)

[JG]

So it's safe to say CP2.0 Carl is still viable and probably remains A tier?

Mmmm... i think that is too early for decide that.

Leaving aside the fact that his dmg output was lowered (pretty sure that Carl still have viable dmg combos), in my opinion, his "reset" potential was nerfed a lot. The fact that almost the 90% of Nirvana moves lift the opponent up, mean after a mixup/reset we are almost forced to go into a juggle combo.

Simple stuff like Vivance/6]D[ hitconfirm, 2A, 2B, 5B, 5C, Tenerezza or 6B, 6A, j.B, 6]D[, IAD, j.A... stuff into UB isn't viable anymore. And thanks to Fuoco and 2]D[ changes, we lost this 6C lv3 UB setup and one setup that beat Hakumen counter moves (i think that this one could be still doable in 2.0, for me losing the Haku setup is a big loose).

In the end, this Carl is weaker than Cp 1.1, but that doesn't mean is a bad thing if the other characters were weakened in this version. The only thing that is going to give us a plain answers, is when the Japanese release a new Tier list for 2.0.

What can i assure you, that this time the simple stuff that we take for granted, are the things that we lost. (6]D[ and Fuoco lift up, Allecancel only on hit, 2A not hitting low, not having at least one Nirvana move that force standing, Fermata techable, etc... stuff that were always with us since Cs2 and maybe even after that.)

[Raiza57]

Why does everyone think Carl lost his damage? 
All of Ada's starters were nerfed to hell, not carls starters. All of Ada's starters were nerfed due to our mixup being stronger with the addition of 5B being jump cancelable, 6C now having a feint, UB setup being much more stable, along with a stronger gimmick game thanks to the Jc nerf. Jc>opponent techs>Brio reset >_> Sounding godlike right about now. Corner combos are looking to be the exact same. Nothing is different except Ada now doesnt give normal starters. Its only a STARTER!! the P1/P2 values are the same. 

The combo showcase is simply showing that her starters are no longer normal starters. 

Anima is probably the same along with Tene and 3D. Probably all have normals starters because they have no real mixup potential other than crossups. 6D was changed probably because of how good of a oki setup it gave midscreen. 

[sinder]

Why does everyone think Carl lost his damage? 

 

Because he has

 

You even answered your own question in your response:

 

 

All of Ada's starters were nerfed to hell,

 

Not only that, but the one carl move that we need to juggle with

I think it's called j,B but I'm not sure.../sarcasm

Seriously though, his damage was nerfed, that is obvious, because j.B was also nerfed. However, as stated before, his mixup game is absurd now so it's not really that big of a nerf to begin with...

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OZ2NWgi7054

 

7.3k...

[TheEssWord]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vxcs6xrzhQU

 

Judging from 11:58 in this video, it looks like 2C isn't a fatal counter anymore.

[Raiza57]

Because he has

 

You even answered your own question in your response:

 

 

 

Not only that, but the one carl move that we need to juggle with

I think it's called j,B but I'm not sure.../sarcasm

Seriously though, his damage was nerfed, that is obvious, because j.B was also nerfed. However, as stated before, his mixup game is absurd now so it's not really that big of a nerf to begin with...

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OZ2NWgi7054

 

7.3k...

 

The reason I was so confident in Carls ability to deal damage without the need of seeing the video, is because they only nerfed SOME of Adas starters. 6D 4D and 2D which are all mixup options. Hence why they were changed to S starters. As for everything else 5c, 5b, Anima, 46D, 3c they are still the same. So any combo from them will give us a CP 1.1 combo. And since most get-ins are done by Carl, when outside of sandwich position, like how 6B is the Go to punish tool. He is still getting the same damage. Any Non-setup damage, will generally be doing slightly more dmg. 

Also I just saw a Carl do our old UB setup.... The Jb whiffed, the opponent was stand blocking, and the 3D registered as a low!!!!!!!?? 

It even showed the yellow exclamation mark and all.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=131WZj3MfBs#t=14m25s

[Pen_Ninja]

Well then... This means unblockable loops...

 

I'm thinking something like 3D+j.B > j.2C~allecan > 2B > 5B > 6B > 46B+6C > 2A > 2B > 5B > j.A/B > 8D > j.2C > j.AAB +3D

 

I'll test it out in 1.1 but if it does work, I don't know if it'll carry over with all the 2.0 changes.

 

On that note though, we have much less in the way of tools for setting up an UB reset loop than we did back in the EX days. Now that 6D and 421D float, we can't use those to fill the Carl gaps. We did gain 46D but will it be enough?

[Raiza57]

Well then... This means unblockable loops...

 

I'm thinking something like 3D+j.B > j.2C~allecan > 2B > 5B > 6B > 46B+6C > 2A > 2B > 5B > j.A/B > 8D > j.2C > j.AAB +3D

 

I'll test it out in 1.1 but if it does work, I don't know if it'll carry over with all the 2.0 changes.

 

On that note though, we have much less in the way of tools for setting up an UB reset loop than we did back in the EX days. Now that 6D and 421D float, we can't use those to fill the Carl gaps. We did gain 46D but will it be enough?

All combo starters in this game have 40-frames less time than normal, this applies to all starters: very short, short, normal, long, very-long are all globally 40 frames less. So the issue with this loop idea is that they will recover. If you look at the video I posted, Carl used a jB starter which is a normal starter. Yet the combo was jb>jc>2a>5B>2B>6B>6a>46D>iad>ja>ja>jb>j2c>ja>ja 3D-reset. He only did 7hits beore going into the bolded unblockablwe string. In no version of the game could a combo this short be done for a UB reset, from a normal starter, and actually reset. In a situation like this, the IAD>ja>ja>jb/3D would/should have combo'ed and not forced a reset. Which would mean that doing all of what you posted would be impossible. 

Besides, 46D>6c wont combo.. they move to far away. 

[Myoro]

All combo starters in this game have 40-frames less time than normal, this applies to all starters: very short, short, normal, long, very-long are all globally 40 frames less.

 

Is this a change from 1.1 to 2.0? Because that sounds like a pretty big deal and something that should be put in the news and gameplay thread if so.

[Pen_Ninja]

Fair call

 

All combo starters in this game have 40-frames less time than normal, this applies to all starters: very short, short, normal, long, very-long are all globally 40 frames less. So the issue with this loop idea is that they will recover. If you look at the video I posted, Carl used a jB starter which is a normal starter. Yet the combo was jb>jc>2a>5B>2B>6B>6a>46D>iad>ja>ja>jb>j2c>ja>ja 3D-reset. He only did 7hits beore going into the bolded unblockablwe string. In no version of the game could a combo this short be done for a UB reset, from a normal starter, and actually reset. In a situation like this, the IAD>ja>ja>jb/3D would/should have combo'ed and not forced a reset. Which would mean that doing all of what you posted would be impossible. 

Besides, 46D>6c wont combo.. they move to far away. 

 

Fair call. I guess I'm used to either Extend "you have all the time you could ever need to force standing and set up and air dash-able situation" when it comes to thinking about this stuff. On the other hand there's the current "Do stuff, then 46D, then unblockable" making it so very easy...

 

Maybe something magical will happen and it'll all be OK... Maybe we'll be able to loop as long as the opponent tried to block the UB standing (good players will stop doing this very quickly)... we'll see I guess.

 

I figured 6B > 46D > 6C would be too far away but I've never actually needed to try it before so it may very well have worked. I'm also not in a position to check D:

[Raiza57]

Is this a change from 1.1 to 2.0? Because that sounds like a pretty big deal and something that should be put in the news and gameplay thread if so.

The Japanese still dont really have a clear understanding of how it works, and I could also be wrong. But either way, I tested the above listed UB setup; the opponent gets combo'ed by the UB setup. Even if you switch to Jc/3D they still get combo'ed. To much time left on the combo clock, to much hitstun. 

 

Fair call

 

 

Fair call. I guess I'm used to either Extend "you have all the time you could ever need to force standing and set up and air dash-able situation" when it comes to thinking about this stuff. On the other hand there's the current "Do stuff, then 46D, then unblockable" making it so very easy...

 

Maybe something magical will happen and it'll all be OK... Maybe we'll be able to loop as long as the opponent tried to block the UB standing (good players will stop doing this very quickly)... we'll see I guess.

 

I figured 6B > 46D > 6C would be too far away but I've never actually needed to try it before so it may very well have worked. I'm also not in a position to check D:

I also tried tested that, just to be on the safe side. Cause that would have been cool, but alas, 46D pulls them to far away and 6C has shit reach. Also, it would be impossible for this to work since 3D forces crouching. If they crouch block, the jb hits crouching, if they stand block, the 3D forces crouching... No way to loop since they are crouching #TheDreamIsDead  I figured carl stuff>anima>crossup j2c-allecan>carl stuff>46D>iad>UB reset would work. But if what they did to the combo timer is correct, then this would be impossible. Maybe the timer only effects standing opponents? Because iv see other character combos, that are much longer than ours, have consistent hitstun throughout the entirety of the combo. So I can understand the confusion with this system change. Its still under speculation.... Maybe mori should quit being a troll and just release the information. But thats just my opinion. 

[sinder]

It's been bugging me, but wasn't there a change in the first loke test where the first couple of hits for 3D needed to be blocked low? Then we have the official note changes which states that 3D isn't low at all, but clearly from the video the first 3D hit was low

 

I think something got lost in translation, or wasn't tested fully.

[Pen_Ninja]

Yeah I just tried it and it does turn out that 6C doesn't reach in that situation... But crush trigger dooooeeesss!

J.2C~allecan > 2B > 5B > 6B > 64D > CT > 66 > 2A > 2A > 2B > 5B > 5C > 8D > 9j.B > j.2C > j.AAB

Drops between j. A and j.B, CT forces standing. Can omit 1 or 2 2As if the j.B starter and/or combo timer changes makes the timing bad, tested on Ragna so far

Edit: tested this off CH j.B > j.2C~allecan and it works just fine.

We may be in trouble if they really have shortened combo time but otherwise, we got this!

[Raiza57]

Yeah I just tried it and it does turn out that 6C doesn't reach in that situation... But crush trigger dooooeeesss!

J.2C~allecan > 2B > 5B > 6B > 64D > CT > 66 > 2A > 2A > 2B > 5B > 5C > 8D > 9j.B > j.2C > j.AAB

Drops between j. A and j.B, CT forces standing. Can omit 1 or 2 2As if the j.B starter and/or combo timer changes makes the timing bad, tested on Ragna so far

Edit: tested this off CH j.B > j.2C~allecan and it works just fine.

We may be in trouble if they really have shortened combo time but otherwise, we got this!

It wasnt a change to the JB, but a change to all combo timers in the game. They are all generally 40frames less time. Also, yea, to much time passed, to many hits have been done. No way in the world this would work. But I wouldnt be surprised if it were possible just redone to be doable, Seeing as how we have no idea how the combo timer changed we have no way to know the exact combo we would need to make this work. But on another note, I did also say that their were going to be other loketest that were not released to the public. A while back I said the japanese had a loketest number 2. During that time, Dogura had made a tweet saying "Kokonoe loketest version 2 is only B tier." 

Which led me to believe that their would be multiple loketest, all of which were not released to the public. 

[Psykotik]

I highly doubt there were any other loketests. If there was actually a secret loketest, you'd hear a lot more people talking about it and see a lot more coverage, news like that spreads like wildfire.

[Raiza57]

Loketest-"3D is not a low"

Game footage-"3D is a low" 

>_> how does this happen, and yet nothing was mentioned till now? 

[Psykotik]

Loketest =/= revision. A loketest specifically refers to a public beta where feedback for a specific revision of the game can be collected and considered for further balance adjustments. There weren't any loketests other than that one that happened in the summer.

If you meant to refer to a revision, then maybe? I don't know exactly how the cycle works but they definitely kept making balance adjustments following the loketests.

[Raiza57]

Then what was the reason that Dogura posted that tweet about kokonoe? My mistake about that, i figured any change done was done was called a loketest. 

[Psykotik]

Probably referring to the Kokonoe we saw during the loketests. IIRC, the pre-release tier lists were based on the loketests.

[Raiza57]

5c>6c confirmed gattling. Possible on hit, unsure if possible on block. 5b>5c>6D>lvl2 6c>5c>brio confirmed combo route. 

[Zoular]

I've seen 5C > 2C gatling as well, if that wasn't mentioned.

[sinder]

I've seen 5C > 2C gatling as well, if that wasn't mentioned.

pretty useless gatling to be honest <_<