AC: Matchups

[fabiano]

I didn't expect anyone to be dumb enough to summon a fish when facing an opponent!

When did I say?

I didn't expect anyone to be dumb enough to *insert favorite attack*...

[excelence]

i meant on that quote u're trying say "use the attack accordingly", i just fix it a little to match the f.s v Baiken scenario :/

[zaeris]

Although I agree to some point, Summon fish is dizzy basic game/instinct. Dizzy game plan all revolve around summoning something, will it be at mid range or far corner.

Why do people do? Because it can set something up and will pressure your opponent to take certain action. You could galtor into combo and summon a fish/bubbler half way and your opponent could:

A. does nothing and guard

B. reacts fast enough and counter.

Game play and mentality on dizzy play varies for each player but you just do these things because it's how she plays.

You know what's worst? Not having any summons and to rely on pokes and random spike to land KD.

As much as I love f.s vs. INO it has its drawback, and sometime a reactive f.s leads to c.s when you do it too close.

if you see ino using note, you can use your scythe (236S) to eat the hits

I think this is a rather great suggestion, although I'm curious if all hits of K scythe will trade or just the initial hit and the rest will continue with the animation?

do try that stuff, but back then the I-No I go against is spamming machine gun hcl (>_<), the best thing to do in this matchup is go on runaway games and get that knock down, and on neutral, if she try to throw a note, it's also a trade in for fish and stuff

I believe the whole running away game is pointless as Ino thrive on air throw, Dizzy runaway game includes alot of air dash and super jump which give Ino even more incentive to be an annoying bitch but in the end keeping your distance from Ino with a 10 foot pole is probably the best action you can take until you can score a KD from somewhere.

[fabiano]

I meant I didn't expect anyone to be dumb enough to summon fishes when their charac is near a standing opponent. And use the attack accordingly who's the opponent, you surely agree about it too. f.S must be forgot vs Baiken, cause it's too risky vs her. Anyway, if my english is bad, sorry, it seems like it cause some misunderstood between us.

[excelence]

the end result is similar thought summon fish while oponent're near -> pawnd f.s v Baiken -> pawnd well english is my secondary too @Zaeris : err yeah I-no Air Throw, but Dizzy still has her j2s(not sure if it's throw invul but I-no has problem when trying to throw this) and j.s for spacing(only got beaten by CL) and iirc I-no can't air Throw Dizzy high Jump on reaction ... no?

[zaeris]

It depends on the Ino player, her ground dash is good enough to catch you when your landing after super jump. distance yourself with double air dash is the key when escaping. Beside air throw he has j.p which is unusually good against Dizzy, even HH commented on Ino j.p being godly at G3 23 v 23 against Yossan EDIT: depressing rewatching H.H get beaten so badly, lol at all of Ino j.hs you know she was trying to air throw.

[excelence]

yeah, the mid air tick throw games revolves a lot on mind games. i'm not realy certain with j.p thought... rarely dealing with it back then

[fabiano]

That bitch air throw is amazingly good vs Dizzy's air hs, when I play vs I-no I always dumbly forget about it. Revision for the next GG: -air throw can't throw in your opponent's move hit box -smaller hit box on Dizzy/ why is she so big? dream on.....

[Gonzales]

yeah againts Ino i use j.2S alot more since its trow invincible

[1muvwndr]

The ultimate anti-Potemkin strategy:

If you land this, from the back of the PS2 come out 100 mini RKYs, Pots and Fausts which then take the Pot player away to a secluded isle whe he dies of shame. You are then crowned King of the F...ing Ice Mountain and thereafter revered as a divinity.

P.S.: This thing actually happened on a tournament a couple of years ago(#R I think). I was that Dizzy

[bizarro]

Wow I never knew j.2S was throw invincible

[zaeris]

Wow I never knew j.2S was throw invincible

While its not listed anywhere after practising and trying to air throw Dizzy while she's doing j.2s it has never happen, you can counter hit her but thats about it.

If you land this, from the back of the PS2 come out 100 mini RKYs, Pots and Fausts which then take the Pot player away to a secluded isle whe he dies of shame. You are then crowned King of the F...ing Ice Mountain and thereafter revered as a divinity.

P.S.: This thing actually happened on a tournament a couple of years ago(#R I think). I was that Dizzy

Its not a bad idea but spacing is a problem if you can react fast maybe, Imperial ray would be better in situation like those. It shouldn't trade and even it it did imperial is multi-hit.

[bizarro]

Best counter to pot j.D is gold burst :D

[zaeris]

While I don't like to nag how is the sub matchup forum coming along for Dizzy?

[bizarro]

I read the staff thread for requests, seems like Nehle hasn't gotten a response yet. I put in my request too just now, so we'll see.

[excelence]

somebody can review Jam matchup? just got raped yesterday with bullshit combos j.k,j.d, gekirin loop... black beat but it's hard like hell to recover from it and her 5p also ruin the recover timming, mashing isn't a good idea on this btw ... what worse is her 2p broke out all my Oki, she wake up tad later sometimes missed the fish timming (>_<)

[Gonzales]

we woul't have to review each macthup if we had a sub-forums. Is anybody gonna make a subforum for Dizzy? Id do it but im not a Mod

[excelence]

there's still no response by the admin for the request Nehle submitted >_<

[Saros]

what do you do?

1. against INO throw tech traps.

2. Okizeme

3. Zoning Notes

4. Stroke the tree

I'm no expert, but I have a friend who play's IN. Here's what I've found:

1(a). IN's air throw is godly range, but if you can recognise the usual tech throw points, like some have said, tech late.

1(b) If you are really fast and it seems IN is a bit too far and has to dash further to throw you, tech and jump again immediately. Be careful of I-No's SJ jP though, it kills alot of DI's air moves and IN can combo into her FB for quite a bit of pain. Try to get to a safer position with high in the air ADs (watch out for that SJ jP!).

1©. Don't spam tech like most people do when you are in the corner, it is not worth it as she can lead to ground-to-air KD combo and you're back to square one. Let her OTG you and let yourself fall. If IN is attempting tech throw by OTGing you near the corner, she will have to sacrifice some of her note's hits which isn't a bad trade off. It is still not safe if IN FRC's it and lands straight down into a really fast low, however you can then quite safely reversal BD -> throw. I do not believe most IN's will try corner tech throws after you've done that to them a couple times as she is not in a favourable position (hand on stick-wise) to throw break.

2(a). If IN has done a clean note in your face, it becomes difficult. You can:

• IB the last hit of note and BD

  if IN is trying for a double-dash overhead scam into a 2K low you will escape and can try to throw her, but this has a risk of DI being thrown as note hits are lv1 and you get out of block stun really fast if you IB, be careful. On the plus side, similar to what I mentioned above, IN cannot input throw break command if she is going for 2K unless the player has super fast hands.

• FD IN's normals in the hopes of pushing her far away to limit her high-low options

  this is generally what I try to do, if IN goes in with air attacks and *if* you can push her far enough away, she is limited dashing landing slide 2K (hm.. hard to describe it) so that she can get a low, or dash for a longer time and try for a jK. This will give you more time to watch for an opening and get those note hits to expire faster (since she spends more time travelling). Good IN's generally don't extend their ground normals to more than one hit if you block it though... so they can still reach you with dashing landing slide 2K with not much change in their timing. Be careful.

• Reversal BD and take the note hits in the air

  only attempt this if you have a burst and you are desperate as this is highly likely *not* to work. The reason I put this down is that if you have a burst and IN is trying to bait it by simply blocking after dashing in your face. You *might* have a chance to tech (then you have to deal with tech throw, oh the stress). This is extremely risky for obvious reasons (the horrors of eating IN's jD still haunt me).

  2(b) If IN has not done a clean note and there is a chance to 1-frame jump up.

  DO IT and FD block the note in the air (to slow your landing and block her grounds), this will kill all her high-low games and somewhat ease the situation. After landing, you have more chances of defense. You can also normal block in the air but I don't really feel safe doing that. The downside, of course, is your precious tensionnnnnnnnnn

3(a). The note has a big flaw, IN needs to spam on the stick to get it to move decently far in the vertical plane. Jump straight up and try to stay up with a K/S bubble if possible (not SJ, normal jump) and watch IN's movements, just be aware of the type of note, fast or slow and then try to watch IN, not the note. Keep your peripheral vision on the note though. Sadly, DI's air hitbox is rather large and this is easier said than done.

If IN notes in the air (and they should) and then she...

• drops straight down and then looks like she is trying to do squats, or has a bowel problem

  double jump up (towards usually makes you jump smack into the note), zoning with jS, j2S or jH as you land (be careful of 6P if you're in range, which you shouldn't be). If you can pop the bubble early during your DJ you can delay your landing if you desire with another bubble. Just to extend your options.

• drops straight down, and then flies towards you without landing for some time

  This means IN has committed her note angle. It is hard to judge her flight time but you will sort of get used to it. You can escape this note easily but it presents a new problem, with IN flying at you, it is difficult to dodge the note while moving in her direction as the threat of her air throw is always there (not to mention that jP). Watch your height carefully, or time an air backdash if the note is going really low (careful about landing ON the note if you jump/AD backwards). Try to zoning with a jS or jH as you land to deny her getting in air throw range. If you can pop the bubble with jP even better, bubble again before you land on the note :X and watch for a chance to pop it with jK as IN is probably on her approach flight by the time you land.

• lands, jumps, and does a quick double jump

  Note's on its way up, watch the range and see if you can dash in under it. Be careful of IN's dives though, try to IB/block it in the air if you can and you have advantage on landing.

The same goes for both fast and slow notes, except you need to adjust your timing, it all comes down to experience. Note that fast or slow notes are relative to your position. If you are far away, the slow note would be the one that starts out fast, then slows down. If you are near however, the slow note would be the one that starts out slow, then speeds up.

3(b) Explode the note before it comes near you

There are many ways depending on where the note is headed.

You can use spear, S scythe (K not recommended), P/K fish or popped bubbles. Of all these however, I feel that spear is the most flexible. You can hold it and block the note in the air, and IN will have to be careful coming in or doing a 2nd consecutive note as you can unleash the spear on her. She might still do it if she has tension for FRC though.

Bubble is not a bad choice, and one of the few times where P bubble comes in handy for its travel range. A bubble also gives you the chance to air BD pop it of course, which can give you the distance needed to get some projectile out. But be careful of the note going really low and landing on your feet, if IN keeps doing that switch to K or S bubble. If its a slow note you have time to jump again though.

3© Get hit by the note

Yes, if it is a 2-3 hit note, take it in the air and tech out. You have double air dash, IN does not. Not the safest thing to do, but if you did not react to the note fast enough so the note is already in your face, and IN is flying towards you already, *and* you have health, it comes down to taking the damage from note, or blocking it and have IN below you. It's up to you in the end.

4(a) STBT S version

You can try to BD it. It's got really short hit active frames. If you're feeling like a hero you can try 2K (not 2P) into whatever, but IN usually does STBT S version after a 2H which you need to IB or it becomes difficult to safely 2K it (hello counter + high float!). Or just jump (1-frame preferred). Do not try to predict if a STBT is coming after 2H though, as she can gatling to 2D. Eating 2Ds makes Dizzy sad.

One more way is to simply block it. If you can IB even better, you get some frame advantage.

4(b) STBT H version

This one is rather tricker due to the FRC. IN usually does it near the corner only. Assuming IN has tension for FRC, the startup is longer so you can jump out, but be careful of FRC -> air throw (CURSE THAT AIR THROW). Generally don't BD as it only gets you in trouble. She can 6H you before you can recover from BD which is quite painful and now you're forced to air tech and say hello to air throw or fall down and give her a note setup. Good luck :X

If you do get hit by STBT H on the ground, learn to shake out of it on reaction. Fast. And you can limit many of her follow-up options.

I am unable to make decently short posts most of the time. Sorry.

[bizarro]

Very good insight into the matchup. Only thing I don't understand is the difference between Ino's S version and H version STBT. I like your recommendation about taking hits in the air so you can escape Ino's okizeme, similar to what some people I play do against my Dizzy by holding up after being knocked down (which works if I summon a split second too late). In my opinion, although it is true that Dizzy is fragile and will lose the bigger portion of her life with just one combo, Dizzy doesn't need health to win, she just needs one knockdown, solid okizeme, and the ability to read DAAs and bursts to win the round. It's entirely possible and happens very often where Dizzy has no life remaining but wins the round against a full-health opponent, all because she got a lucky throw during a reset attempt by the opponent. So if you are confident about your offensive strengths, you won't have to fear taking hits to escape (certain exceptions apply of course, such as Slayer + Jam who can win the round just by scoring a counterhit, and also require special okizeme patterns to keep them from escaping).

[Saros]

STBT H is the one with the FRC point and travels a little further, but startup is longer too.

STBT S has no FRC but shorter range + startup. Both have the same active as far as I can tell.

The annoying thing is the throw invince somewhere in the middle of the startup. Have to be careful if you're trying for a throw or you eat a counter. I used to have the habit of trying to throw any STBT attempts, but there's quite a small window only and I guess I eventually gave up trying to throw that.

Video Says Thousand Words:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uZR0Y0vYJfk

00:21 - FRCed STBT H into 6H (it swings up after a bit and its deceptively good at killing jump ins + 5K cancel makes it recover pretty fast. It will kill normal jump-in j2S so watch otu), pity he missed the followup combo.

02:25 - This is what happens when you miss the small throw window on STBT

02:30 - Must ... resist... urge... to .... tech

[zaeris]

thanks for finding the vid, I have a copy at home which I should view more often. Its quite depressing seeing Dizzy lose as soon as Ino gets her Okizeme down and her pressure going.

[bizarro]

I just came back from playing some friends, and yes, ino rapes dizzy for free

[Gonzales]

so i was playing a testament player and i felt pretty comftarble in the machtup. There was however one thing that was bugging me. Sometimes when i would IAD with J.2S he would jump and he would use one of his air normals(forgot wich one) wich would wiff because he would jump toward me , but my J.2S would also wiff since the part of the hitbox wich was supposed to hit him would not be active. I would fall and he would grab me. There's one thing that i hate and that is randomly getting grabbed into a combo. i refuse to lose to something that was not planned. Am i supposed to use my J.2S less in this machtup so i dont get randomed out or should i just try to score a counter hit by jumping straigth up J.2S?

[B.L. Pancho]

^You can always play a less random game or a character who is less susceptible to lose to randomness but more likely to win WITH randomness..... Hehehe just kidding...what am I doing here?