[UNIEL] Hyde Matchups Discussion

[D.R.F.]

A 50/50 is like where you have to guess between one and ay of block or the other. Examples include i-nos offensesl where you have to guess high/low. Seth has the same kind of mixup (albeit not as strong) and that's what he shines in when on the offensive

[Skye]

Nereus, I wonder, what is your experience on the MU? Are you basing this on 2 equal players?

[o Nereus o]

Nereus, I wonder, what is your experience on the MU? Are you basing this on 2 equal players?

Yes

[o Nereus o]

A 50/50 is like where you have to guess between one and ay of block or the other. Examples include i-nos offensesl where you have to guess high/low. Seth has the same kind of mixup (albeit not as strong) and that's what he shines in when on the offensive

I understand what a 50/50 is.. and i really don't see what Seth has that's a 50/50 besides what i explained. There are instances to where he can fake a assault j.C by free falling.. but that's just gimmicky because both options are easily reactable. He doesn't really have a reliable overhead either.. and his blockstrings are ok but not that threatening. Like i said in earlier posts, a lot of the stuff he can do people don't realize how to interrupt it. Not saying you guys don't... but a lot of people don't.

[Surf]

I agree with Nereus. People seem to over estimate and not understand what Seth is doing during pressure. A large majority of his pressure without orb backup is fradulent. The opponent is usually just so confused as to whats going on, (lack of matchup exp, him warping all over the place, etc) Seth gets away with alot more than he actually should.

With orb backup his pressure becomes much stronger with covered assaults, crossups, covered fast fall lows, comboing from his overhead and making it safe, etc. He has a large number of options. But none of them can be considered 50/50s.. Where it doesnt involve reacting, but guessing.

I picked him up recently and Hyde is my most played matchup. And in terms of the match I dont particurlarly think Seth is in control in neutral. Yes he can manuever around and avoid Hyde pretty well. But getting an orb on the screen is always dangerous because of orbiter and 22x. Seth has to make constant risky decisions in neutral (when not at long range) that usually dont pan out to the amount of reward that Hyde gets from a simple decision like throwing orbiters. A couple of stray normals/orbiters + 2 Hyde combos usually means a dead or 10% Seth. Even Hydes chip damage normals are a nightmare for Seth. Where a simple blockstring results in a couple hundred+ damage in just chip. Which Seth cant afford. And usually being placed in the corner without meter or vorpal to 623C/Veil Off/Guard Thrust usually results in death for the Seth player. Neutral can somewhat go either way but if Seth is caught hes usually done for unless he has the resoruces to get out (which i guess goes for most of his matchups)

[Skye]

You guys know that both of Hyde's projectiles have glaring blind spots, both of which are the the air. 22a/b does not track. People give Hyde's neutral too much credit.

I'll be honest here, I think Hyde has very bad neutral and for a shoto, his fireball game is weaker than just about every other character who has a fireball game. I'll even say that Akatsuki has a better game because of its increased utility in the air and that it's much safer on block than orbiter (Hyde has to use the a follow up to make his safe).

Hyde's neutral is more reliant on his normals than projectiles.

Hyde's strong points is his offense, his ability to stay in once he gets in, he has a variety of ways to reset pressure without much risk, combined with very good Oki that ignores a lot of DPs. Getting in is always his problem, which poses a problem when facing a character who excels at evasion.

[Surf]

I never said Hydes neutral is good. Just that Seth doesnt have as much control in that aspect of the match like you stated earlier. Orbiter is subpar but still a problem. Seth can jump or 214B over them and punish the recovery with j.A but thats a risky play even if the reward is decent. Hyde can always choose to do nothing (which is probably his best option against an over aggressive Seth), let Seth hang himself and anti air with 6B. 22x doesnt track but is still an effective tool at sniping Seth if hes around the mid-long range area. Which is the safest range for Seth to set up an orb in the air or on the ground. Its safe to set one up full screen, but your still full screen and have to make it to Hyde while avoiding getting hit with anything so orb still fires. If you caught blocking at best the orb will hit Hyde. In my experience mid-long range orbs have worked best

Seth is similar to how you described Hyde, Skye. One of his worst weaknesses is a patient player. His pressure usually thrives on the opponents confusion/frustration on dealing with it. His A teleports also serve as frametraps but they dont have hitboxes unless your in hitstun. So if you press nothing, nothing will happen. Crossup dives can be vexing enough to bait you into attempting to 3C/dp him, only to miss because he backdashed. Best thing to do is block him and know the Seths teleporting tendencies. Not every one is safe. The times youll have to worry about blocking Seth is after a knockdown and he has orb backup

[Hyde]

So after playing surf for what honestly made me feel like I went straight back to MK and was playing subzero vs kitanna all over again, the Eltnum mu is probably 7-3/6-4 at best. She just destroys Hyde at neutral, plus he can't do anything against tripwire oki. The ridiculous hit box on her trip wire special can AA and with meter lead her into so pretty decent damage and give her oki setups. @Tenryuga got to see this first hand when he last got in on a set with me and Surf. He can annoy her in the corner but if she resets neutral, via jump out, veiloff, GRD thrust, or simply a well timed DP, the hell starts all over again. I have watched the Hyde Eltnum mu (match up) played by different Hyde players and different Eltnum players from JP and I have never seen any of the Eltnums play that match up like Surf. So before anyone says idk what I'm talking about or that it's not that bad, I ask you, play Surf in a FT5/10 Hyde vs Eltnum and tell me how is goes.

We've both looked into the abyss, but when it looked back...you blinked

[steeltoedsandal]

It's been a while since I've seen anything posted in this thread, so I'd like to point people to my matchup section in my primer. I've been playing against Norcal's best at GC2 for almost a year now with Hyde, so I'd like to think my opinion has some merit. Matchup notes start on page 11. It doesn't go into much detail, but it has some important things of note. 

 

https://docs.google.com/document/d/15OXO6GdP00a1hxVE_2Vos3jGc3sv_qLMRmi4tHKHVcI/edit

 

Edit: I just realized these are actually pretty old. I'm going to update this over the weekend while looking at the UNIELST loketest changes.

[Adam_Automatic]

On 8/10/2014, 8:25:00, Skye said:

Explanation time! Sorry I took so long, I rarely on an actual computer, and doing this stuff on the phone is dreary.

 

Vs Linne 5/5 even

Linne wins in neutral, Hyde wins at oki. Her crouching hurtbox makes approaching her difficult from the air and her crouch normals makes it hard to approach from the ground. Kuuga > Orbiter. Shadow Scare <= Kuuga. Dark Lotus is amazing this this MU.

 

Vs Orie 5.5/4.5 - slight advantage

Orie not having a DP makes this fun for Hyde. Their oki is about even. Orie's AA game is the reason this isn't 6/4 Hyde.

 

Vs Carmine 5/5 - even

Statement redacted, this MU feels more in Carmine's favor so moreso 4.5/5.5 Slight Disadvantage. His neutral, pressure and oki is all insane. Don't let him get in his zone. Oh God please don't let him. His defense is shit so once Hyde starts his turn, it's hard to end it.

Vs Hilda 4.5/5.5 - slight disadvantage

Her zoning is good, Hyde loses the fireball game outright, keep her close, mid range, 22a works wonders to help you get in. Be patient, inch your way in and wreck her shit in. Once you're in, you should stay in, but Hilda is great at keeping you out.

Vs Merkava 4/6 - disadvantage

This might be Hyde's worst MU imo, the neutral game is one big rock paper scissor kamehameha bout, except Hyde doesn't have the fourth option. He has an answer to almost everything Merk does, but Merkava has options to keep Hyde guessing. Merkava can play like a minimalist. His backdash and abare is good, so running oki is hard midscreen.

 

Vs Seth 5/5 - even

I can't stand Seth's design, here is a game that advertises ground neutral and combat and here's Seth practically flying without risk. His set play and neutral is pretty powerful, but he is paper.

 

Vs Akatsuki 6/4 - advantage

They're about even in the fireball game. But Akatsuki has no movement, Hyde can stay away from him and get in when he wants. Akatsuki needs godlike neutral to stand a chance, otherwise, it's fucked.

 

I agree with FistMaster on the Vatista and Gordeau MUs, especially Vatista, fuck that hoe.

I don't know why, but I get bodied by Linne all day long.  Her normals are just so much faster than Hyde's and in addition to that, her divekicks are so hard to react to if she "safe-jump assaults" behind Hyde after a knockdown and then has high low with 2A, instant-air j.C/assault C, tick-throw set-ups, or other goofy stuff.  The rest of the list I completely agree with, however.  Merkava gives every character a hard time, but Hyde is especially vulnerable to Merk because all of the options that Hyde *may* have in normal play gets shutdown by Merk's noodle arms.  I'm kind of surprised you didn't discuss Gordeau in Hyde's match-ups.  That is another match-up that is particularly awful, in my humble opinion.  Jump-in shielding is an option for Hyde to approach Gordeau, but considering the frame advantage that Gordeau enjoys on his ridiculously-large normals, I always seem to get punished with GRD breaks when I land or just having to deal with Gordeau's dumb standing/crouching mix-ups.  Of course, I haven't been playing the game for very long and my match-up knowledge is pretty limited.  However, just from watching top Hyde players, it seems to me that they play even more cautiously than they do against Merkava (again, though, that's just my perception.)

[Icekin]

Linne's mixup is not that great. At any time she air assaults, you can shield that free, or block high then switch to low when she lands. Her divekick is not a high, and it is minus on block, so even if you just low block it, you're still at an advantage. Her normals are fast, but Hyde's 6B is a godlike poke to beat out anyone else's.
 

[Adam_Automatic]

10 hours ago, Icekin said:

Linne's mixup is not that great. At any time she air assaults, you can shield that free, or block high then switch to low when she lands. Her divekick is not a high, and it is minus on block, so even if you just low block it, you're still at an advantage. Her normals are fast, but Hyde's 6B is a godlike poke to beat out anyone else's.
 

Is it like Yun's divekick in Street Fighter where she can delay the timing until its lower to the ground?  I should probably go into training mode with her just so I can learn her buttons.  I pretty much never switch characters and focus exclusively on Hyde in order to better learn each matchup he has in its entirety (hence, my moaning about the top-tiers. )