[UNIEL] Carmine Matchups Discussion

[jo-p]

He doesn't have a meterless reversal, so if you can score a knockdown, you can apply pressure on his wake-up without worrying about that.

You might want to try waiting for him to get to you. He has very little in the way of mobility, and his fastest movement options - Assault and [4]6A/B/C - are both easy to punish if you bait them.

Those're the only things I know about him that might help you out. He's regarded as one of the best characters for a reason

Hmm didn't know that he was free on wakeup. Always thought he could command grab me so I was always scared to get too close. Having Wald come to me seems like the better plan as I could probably get him to land a tk wheel or something. 3B anti-air doesn't seem too reliable though.

[Magaki]

I actually play both and the matchup isn't actually that bad. Actually, it's one of the few matchups when you can do whatever you want.

It's impossible for him to mash out of 214[A/B] on reaction. 236A/B and tk 236A severely hurt his neutral and he can't cancel them. 6B cannot be canceled either and will often hit him if he tries to assault.
When he tries to play patient because he understands that he has no way to get in or do anything against 236X, 6B and puddles, you can do assault j236A which will most of the time force him to block it and allow you to start blood pressure right away. His only reversals also are 360C and 623C. You can jump out of 360C on reaction during the superflash and 623C is quite slow and have a crappy hitbox behind so jumping behind him midscreen (You usually want to do jump>j[C]) will allow to make both reversals whiff.

At the start of the round against 5B-happy Wald, you can just make him shut up with 2C which is a really pain for him to deal with on the ground because of its ridiculous speed and hitbox.

If the Wald player is smart though, he will understand that his best choice is to try to deal with Carmine from the air because of how fast jB is and how he doesn't have any hurtbox on it while doing so allowing to beat several normals like 3B. That's why even if you bait his assault, you won't necessarily be able to punish it. Your best bet on reaction is to actually backdash>2C. Keep also in mind that he can't combo after assault jB if he did the jB as soon as possible(unless it's a counter). He however can combo after jC.
Best way to beat whatever he might want to do in neutral though is with jump backward>j236A.
Technically, he can try to throw a rock at you in order to stop you from zoning him but it's so slow it's not something he can rely on.

As for your offense against him: go ham. His fastest normal comes out in 8f which makes it too hard to block 214[A/B] on reaction. It also makes it hard to deal with 2A whiff cancels on reaction too. His 2C also comes out in 12f so you shouldn't worry about being punished on reaction for assaults either.
Pseudo-infinite blockstring also works both midscreen and in the corner against him. Make sure you dash a bit midscreen after any 236A. Only thing you really have to watch out in offense is his 360A which comes out in 3f and will be used if you're not careful with your spacing.
As for your pressure itself, like mentionned, he can't punish 214[A] on reaction so everytime he blocks something, it's free blood pressure so you should abuse that. It's actually the only matchup in the game where you have guaranteed blood pressure. If he got some meter, he can try to 623C out of it or 360C so make sure to use 2B and 2C in blockstrings sometimes to catch any reversal attempts.

Defense-wise though, you need to understand how Wald's pressure works. Best way for that is to go watch some of Fusemaster's matches. Midscreen, he's not particularly dangerous and backdashes are a pain for him to deal with considering his pushbacks and the numerous gaps in his pressure. Usually, his only way to deal with backdashes midscreen is to anticipate it and do 236A. Which can only combo into 236C and whiffs if you're too far. If 236A is blocked though, he's -20 on block. So go with 2C>6B combos and punish it accordingly. 236C however is only -6 which means you have to be really fast with your 5A to punish it. You can also shield it to make it -9 for additionnal GRD and an easier punish. Or a bigger one if you punish with 5B.

In the corner though, his pressure becomes insane. And you will actually end up there quite often because of [4]6X which can be done after most confirms midscreen. If the combo was too long though, you can air tech forward and he will be the one in the corner.
Back to his pressure, his most important move in the corner is 214A/B (the claw clash). A is +1 and B is +3. Both are projectiles and the claws doesn't have a hurtbox. The hitbox is also bigger than it looks like and it allows him to make frametraps out of any normals. Thankfully, the pushback is as great as the efficiency of the move.
His safest and deadliest gameplan is to mixup if he's close with 2B (his only low) and dash 360A, frame traps from afar with 214A/B or assault in order to be closer (Or do stuff like assault j[C] whiff/j6C whiff>360A).
If he's using frame traps, 214C is actually quite efficient on him and will beat quite a lot of things while allowing you to do a big combo. You can get some GRD by shielding but be careful with that because 360B is here to punish shield attempts. So make sure to be unpredictable with your shields and don't abuse it. Speaking of 360B, it will always be a gold throw whether done when you're in blockstun or neutral so make sure to tech them on reaction. It's a free GTFO ticket after all. Once you have your GRDs and Vorpal, you can decide to either CS and get some meter or guard vorpal if he's not too far. 214C is generally what you do when he's too far because even if he baits and block it, you're +6.

When he's closer is when he's the most dangerous simply because you have to deal with his mixups. He got 4 possibilities: dash 360A, 2B(low), 6C and 236B(overheads) and [4]6A/B. The last two options can actually be easily reacted to so you won't see them that much. If his mixup attempt fail, he will end up too far to mixup and will keep pressuring you from afar. His 2 best ways to get in in order to start mixing up is with assault (which can and should be AAed with 3B at this distance) and dash B. Dash B is the safest choice, comes out quite fast and got a huge hitbox. He will either go for dash B>214A for a frame trap or dash B>dash B to keep getting closer. Whatever he does though after dash B will always have a gap so you can 214C afterwards.

He also has several moves that are + on block. 214A is +1, 214B is +3, 6C (second hit) is +5 and 4B is +2. Obviously, the most dangerous moves are 214A/B simply because he can do them whenever he wants to.

Anyway, while it's true that he's indeed top tier, the matchup is actually much easier than Gordeau's and obviously Merkava's.

[jo-p]

Magaki never told a lie. Took the above and used it vs Shine, matchup feels a lot easier! Its still a terror when I end up in the corner but all hell breaks loose when he's stuck blocking lol. Thanks a lot

[Crimson King15]

A lot of people always mention that merkava's 3c into 214a/b is safe, but I've been in the lab testing it and if you shield the 3c you can run under the projectile for a full combo punish. Also, if he makes an attempt at delaying it so his body is closer to the ground to make it less punishable you can punish the delayed fireball (beat it on start up rather) with 5b into a full combo.

[jo-p]

Anyone have any tech vs Hyde? Anything specific would be nice, as for now I just run my offense a little bit on the weary side, same typical rush down plan though.

[spoot]

Any tips on taking on Orie?

I've been having some trouble with good Orie players since they can use her quick low attacks to poke through any small gaps in my combos and get things going in her favor.

Watched a few matches on chainshift and it seems that the matchup usually follows the same general flow of Carmine getting in good hits at first and then Orie will get in a reversal and grind the Carmine down in the corner until he can't hold out anymore.

[jo-p]

Any tips on taking on Orie?

I've been having some trouble with good Orie players since they can use her quick low attacks to poke through any small gaps in my combos and get things going in her favor.

Watched a few matches on chainshift and it seems that the matchup usually follows the same general flow of Carmine getting in good hits at first and then Orie will get in a reversal and grind the Carmine down in the corner until he can't hold out anymore.

I don't think orie is that terrible of a matchup. Yes thrust is gdlk, so she will defintely keep your whiffs in check. Outside of proper spacing I don't really see the adv. 6B is a huge annoyance and kills any random thrusts she may try to gain ground on you. Overhead is sneaky at first but after a while you'll see its very slow and easy to react to. Either block high, backdash, or simply push a button if you scout it early enough. Her regular dp reversals only have head invincibility so throwing out 2Bs and 2Cs will get you a high counter. With 100+ meter she can use either dp or the rush super (I never know the actual names of moves lol) which both carry a decent amount of invincibility so don't play her as close. Also I feel the inf block string works wonders on her cause it forces her to burn meter for a reversal which isn't that great of an option to begn with. I wouldn't be too scared of orie, just watch the thrusts and her meter for panic reversals. Otherwise 6b her ass for free blood puddles and go ham.

[SoulGuitarist]

There hasn't been any activity in this thread for almost an entire year and with UNIST coming in JP arcades soon, I thought I would post.

I heard Carmine is pretty much the same as last version except a few changes. The biggest change being his damage taking a hit with the nerf hammer according to tweets I read.

I also wonder if the new chargeable 3C will have any use or has unique properties. I still think standard 3C will be used mostly in play though.

I'm thinking charged 3C can be used in combos 3B and you can charge the 3C to knock the opponent in the air to extend/end the combo.

The length of the reach is also dependent of the charge so maybe it will make some MUs easier.