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[UNIEL] Seth Matchups Discussion

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Welcome to the Seth Matchups Thread!
Welcome to the Seth Matchups Thread! Feel free to ask any questions or share any information you have learned about any specific matchups you've learned in UNIEL!

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Anyone got advice on the Yuzu MU.

 

Seems pretty bad since her Battou range is ridiculous, even when you eventually get close to her she can C teleport away and her 2c outrange pretty much all ours and hits low. 

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Anyone got advice on the Yuzu MU.

 

Seems pretty bad since her Battou range is ridiculous, even when you eventually get close to her she can C teleport away and her 2c outrange pretty much all ours and hits low. 

Against characters who have better range than Seth, i usually just shield block and find my openings. You have to pretty much abuse Seth's mobility in order to get in. He's extremely quick. Also, Dash C is a really good tool for punishing things that can't usually be punished by other characters so you may be able to punish her with it. His 623C is really good for making reads... so if the Yuzu isn't cautious you may even be able to react to her with 623C. 623C also has invincibility frames iirc. Be careful though, because although this move is good, the range on it is a bit wonky and it's punishable on block.

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How do we deal with Carmine? I have played against just about every character in the game and he feels like the biggest threat tied with Merkava. We have no answer to fullscreen sword spam. His normals are huge and his j.C wrecks the shit out of us. And to top it off his damage off of everything is nuts. I feel like I have to play this matchup (among others) like a damn grappler. Just wait, make a super hard read, pray to god that you carry the momentum, die if you drop it. It's literally a one shot matchup.

Things of note that are super shitty:

- you can't cross under his j.C because you will be forced to block it anyway.

- your normals are too short to effectively poke out of pressure.

- the only safe way to throw out an orb is up-back > air backdash> orb, which is super telegraphed and easy to punish.

- he has big, fast ground normals to disrespect your pressure if you get in.

- he can kill you in 2 combos if he's being optimal.

- you will rarely have vorpal due to hanging back and flipping around in the upper left/right side of the screen which is you only "safe zone".

- whiff punishing him is nigh impossible.

If this isn't Seth's worst matchup, I don't know what is.

Edit: this has been debunked. Read down to learn how to make this matchup okay.

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Would you mind elaborating more about what you do in neutral and defense ? While it's true that getting in is both Seth's and Carmine's goal, Carmine is much better at doing that thanks to his zoning but Seth is really hard to deal with at close range.

Carmine's hitboxes aren't as big as the sprites make it look like. In fact, the only normal that does have a reach as big as the sprite and is insanely good is 2C. It's true that jC is good but unlike Waldstein, anti-airing Carmine isn't a problem;

You also have to keep in mind that 6B (What you call the sword) at max range is pretty good to zone but he doesn't get anything particularly great out of it. Well, meterless that is. Otherwise he can do 6B>B+C>22C and get in for free thanks to that.

Another thing you have to keep in mind is that jumping is extremely risky against Carmine because his 2 main neutral tools are 6B and tk 236A/B. And trust me, you don't want to get hit by 236A/B raw unless you don't mind losing half of your health and guaranteed corner carry.

I would have to say however that I'm quite surprised to see that you didn't mention what is truly difficult to deal with against Carmine. Like the pseudo-infinite blockstring for example. What does your opponent  specifically does during pressure ? You have to keep in mind that if you're not already blocking a 236A or a trap (what we call the blood pressure) and he uses 236A/214[A] you have to immediately punish him because the gap created by both moves when done in blockstrings with normals is quite big.
But then again, if you didn't mention anything like the pseudo-infinite, it's highly possible that he doesn't know how to properly use the blood pressure and make the most out of it.

So, again, what does he specifically do ? Knowing Carmine's options and when to punish him when he's pressuring you is the most important part of the matchup. If you don't know that, mindlessly mashing your way through or using reversals is what you will usually go with and a good Carmne got tons of way to be completely safe while pressuring and punishing you at the same time.

Despite what you said though, matchup feels even. Maybe Carmine got a slight advantage but it can't be more than 5.5 anyway.

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Nah, it's definitely an extremely hard matchup. All aspects of the game require Seth to make very strong hard reads in order to win. Fullscreen is essentially a game of dash block. Calling out Segments gets completely shut down by 6B, both in the air and on the ground. He can always also very easily get in by shifting from his zoning to rushdown very suddenly. At mid-range, Carmine is utterly dominates. Even Seth's 2C is a complete joke in range compared to his 5B,5C,2C etc. 3C does a fantastic job at shutting down aerial approaches.

 

At close range, you have to make hard reads to get out of Carmine's pressure, especially if he has 100 meter. Things like well timed 623As. Carmine on the other hand can chicken jump out of a lot of your pressure and tricks with j.C/j.B and sadly, baiting these moves requires a lot of commitment to punish, meaning that Carmine can effectively condition you to play extremely cautiously. 

 

Yeah, Seth pretty much loses every aspect of this matchup. You have to play extremely cautiously half the time, and take huge skewed risks the other half. Even Chaos has an easier time in this matchup. 

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I agree with ground segments losing hard against his 6B but I disagree with your opinion about the air version fullscreen. j236B can be quite annoying for Carmine to deal with especially when Seth is blocking right before it. If the Carmine player however likes to spam 6B way too much, shielding the move and getting GRD for Vorpal is a pretty good idea especially when you consider that Carmine loses less health in Vorpal.

I agree however with Carmine having a big advantage at midrange. 5C and 3C however are a huge gamble Carmine is doing at this range because they aren't particularly fast and do have quite the recovery.

I disagree with the hard reads part however while you're defending. Please tell me the kind of pressure you had to deal with so far especially when you're mentioning the 100 meter part. There is no need for Carmine to use meter at all in pressure because he already got all the tools he needs meterless to force his opponent to respect him with or without blood pressure.

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j.236B as tons of recovery, you can just 6B in reaction to it and punish him on his way down, or just 22C if you wish. Even if you manage to get it out, Carmine can do stuff like 214A charged, tk 236A and j.C to avoid the poor tracking of the orb while zoning Seth out still.

 

Carmine's pressure is scary with meter because he can essentially keep you blocking for ages then just go for a Command Grab. The fear of a command grab also means you can't shield his charged j.C, otherwise he can land and punish your shield with it. It's also extremely easy for him to reset his pressure suddenly since, as I said, Seth's only way to punish pressure resets outside of 2C range are very hard reads with stuff like Dash C, 623B etc. These risks aren't really something you can do lightly either since 2 combos is usually more than enough to kill Seth.

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I actually tested j236B in training mode. The recovery is indeed way too big and it seems the only way to make sure that j236B isn't in 6B's range is with an air backdash so it's indeed not that reliable.

There is indeed a setup to force the opponent to either take the command grab or get hit by a 236A/B but it leads to poor damage and is a bad idea in the corner (Carmine's goal considering you can only make sure your opponent can't escape there.) so it's only something he does when going for the kill.
Another important point is that if he doesn't go for the setup, his command grab isn't +0 after superflash so you can jump on reaction.

Also, attempting any kind of mixup with Carmine while in the middle of blood pressure means that he will lose said blood pressure and won't be able at this point to reset pressure safely. Usually, when a mixup attempts fail and his blockstring ends, his 2 best choices are:
-Poking you out with 5B/2C against hasty opponents.
-Resetting blood pressure with 214[A]/236A.

You can usually jump out of a 5B/2C when it happens but I wouldn't recommend it as it's way too risky.
Usually, whatever option he choose, he will need at some point to go for blood pressure again and that's where you have to punish him.

You mentioned before that pressure resets are difficult to deal with outside of 2C range but it actually does make your job easier because he can't use 214[A] at this range meaning he can only go for 236A whose animation is particularly obvious.
I already tested it on training to see how it would look like for Seth and I used a dummy using 5 different patterns with one of them using 236A and even with 8 frame delays on the inputs, you can still punish a 236A on reaction with 623A.
Obviously, considering that I play Carmine, I'm used to the animation so it will be harder for anyone not used to him hence why it's better to train in order to recognize and react faster.

So no, there definetely is no need to do any hard reads here.

Anything else in defense you have troubles with ?

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Of course because that's his best way to reset pressure and go straight for blood pressure.
Why did you think I went with 5 different patterns with only one of them using 236A on purpose ? Because it was fun ? No it was obviously because I wanted to know whether it was possible to react to it or not.

I don't think there is anything particularly complicated here. If Carmine wants to go for blood pressure, he needs 214[A/B] or 236A. If he can't use 214[A/B], he can only go for 236A.
Did you actually even bother checking the huge startup the move has ? Why do you think the top jap Carmines prefer to go with frame traps during their pressure and only use 236A once in a while ? I guess they are all full of theories too right ?

Like with the example of Merkava's MU when you just can't take that risk simply because he can 2C/5B you on reaction hence why Notsu or SAT don't use it at all against him. But then again, that's complete theorycraft for you.

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Thanks for the help as usual, Magaki. I didn't bother noting the infinite pressure because any good Carmine will know how to make it happen anyway. I'll definitely be studying these posts and figuring out ways to make this matchup a bit easier, or at the very least make more sense.

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Glad to hear it. I'll tell you more things about the pseudo-infinite so it will be easier for you in the future to deal with it.

Doing it is quite simple, you need to do (  236A>214[A]>]A[  ) XN
The reason why it's a pseudo-infinite is because there is a gap between the 214[A] and ]A[. Problem is that the Carmine player will activate it right away simply because ]A[ doesn't disappear on hit. It does disappear however if you get hit BEFORE activating it. That's why reversals are a bad idea because even if you do hit him, you will get hit by ]A[ anyway. Which obviously what makes the pseudo-infinite so ridiculously strong.

Unless you got a reversal command grab, you only have another way to deal with it, 214D. There are obviously way for Carmine to block it but unless you do 214D between 214[A] and ]A[, he has to bait it and commit so make sure you're careful while using 214D.
I would recommend to use it in Vorpal.
In order to get Vorpal when he's pressuring you in the corner, make sure to look at his spacing. It's true that he can punish guard shields if done during 236A with dash throw even though it's hard and, most of all, he needs to be quite close. So if you shield when he gets pushed back by 214[A], you're guaranteed to get your GRD blocks.

Be careful when he's close though because he can do instead 214>throw during the pseudo-infinite. If the throw is teched, the trap will automatically disappear so you can start getting in.

Another thing quite important, be careful with his normals especially in the corner because he can end all of them with 22A/B which is a frame trap. It's really useful against Seth players who mash 623A and call them 'hard reads' and leads to rather nice rewards.
If the Carmine player is too far though, he can still use meter and do 22B>22C which will end up with Carmine dashing and doing 214[A]>214>concentration which most of the time means he will steal all your GRD blocks.
 

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Of course because that's his best way to reset pressure and go straight for blood pressure.

Why did you think I went with 5 different patterns with only one of them using 236A on purpose ? Because it was fun ? No it was obviously because I wanted to know whether it was possible to react to it or not.

I don't think there is anything particularly complicated here. If Carmine wants to go for blood pressure, he needs 214[A/B] or 236A. If he can't use 214[A/B], he can only go for 236A.

Did you actually even bother checking the huge startup the move has ? Why do you think the top jap Carmines prefer to go with frame traps during their pressure and only use 236A once in a while ? I guess they are all full of theories too right ?

Like with the example of Merkava's MU when you just can't take that risk simply because he can 2C/5B you on reaction hence why Notsu or SAT don't use it at all against him. But then again, that's complete theorycraft for you.

 

You're acting like the only pressure Carmine is capable of is A>B>C>Special>Mixup>A>B>C like this is BlazBlue or something.

 

He can reverse beat and whiff a moves to reset his pressure. 

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So I took all of what Magaki shared and applied it to a giant play session against the local Carmine player. He is absolutely right about it not being that bad. At best it feels like 6-4 for Carmine. Actively looking for gaps isn't too bad during his pre blood pressure, although his delays and other tricks require you to make a few reads here and there.

Round start is the most important part of this matchup IMO. You have to read what he will do, but guessing correctly means you have the momentum, and Carmine really struggles when Seth is in his face due to his slow-ish normals. Teleport pressure shenanigans are really good because they allow you to set up an orb out of his reach and easily punish whiffed normals with j.214A. If he blocks the dive, cancel into 623A to extend the blockstring long enough that the orb will fire and reset your pressure. j.214A > 623A is a frame trap as well, so you can confirm off of that if he presses buttons.

I'm barely scratching the surface of the matchup, but I want to sincerely thank Magaki for offering his advice. I'm nowhere near as scared of Carmine anymore.

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You're acting like the only pressure Carmine is capable of is A>B>C>Special>Mixup>A>B>C like this is BlazBlue or something.

 

He can reverse beat and whiff a moves to reset his pressure. 

If he does it really close, yeah you can't really react to that and it's purely based on whether or not you respect him at this distance. If however he does it from where you said Seth has huge troubles (outside 2C range), then in that case it's much riskier for him to do 2A whiff cancel and dash in/assault to reset pressure.

His safest option will still be after a whiff cancel to either poke you or reset blood pressure so it doesn't really change anything: If Carmine really wants to do what makes him so strong, he needs to go for blood pressure in the end. Otherwise, his pressure becomes completely basic and I don't think I need to explain how to deal with that.

 

 

So I took all of what Magaki shared and applied it to a giant play session against the local Carmine player. He is absolutely right about it not being that bad. At best it feels like 6-4 for Carmine. Actively looking for gaps isn't too bad during his pre blood pressure, although his delays and other tricks require you to make a few reads here and there.

 

Nice. Carmine seems unbelievably strong if you don't understand him but once you get that his pressure is divided in 2 parts, pre-blood and blood, you can easily understand why he's considered to be mid-tier and not high.

As for his defense, his only reversal cost meter and it's a command grab. 3B is also quite slow so once you make him block, go ham !

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Hello! A new Seth player here! I'm wondering if anyone knows how to deal with the Merkava-matchup? Is there any matchup analysis essay or any good vs Merkava vids available? Anything is helpful since I get bodied very badly at the moment :(.

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Hello! A new Seth player here! I'm wondering if anyone knows how to deal with the Merkava-matchup? Is there any matchup analysis essay or any good vs Merkava vids available? Anything is helpful since I get bodied very badly at the moment :(.

Merkava is most likely our worst matchup. I haven't had that much experience vs the character, but I can say that whiff punishes are incredibly important. You have to be really on point with your punishes otherwise you won't really get anywhere. His high/low is really easy to block, it's just a matter of being patient and waiting for a move with big startup like his 4C. In neutral, his air normals are a huge problem, but unlike some characters he has no method of destroying orbs at fullscreen for free meaning if he's too mash happy you get to go in. if you open him up, you better pray that you carry the round off of the momentum, because you most likely wont get in again.

It's a game of patience, as are most of Seth's hard matchups. It's most likely 7-3, so don't expect anything but an uphill battle, the character is pretty silly.

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(Inconvenient double post)

After all the shit I went through with Carmine, I think I have run into a matchup that proves to be even harder. And that matchup is Waldstein. How on earth do you deal with this giant man? You have no option at round start other than block. Getting in is a huge risk because of his massive normals. He is literally able to take a step forward and do 5C > Eisen Nagel to destroy both you and your orb. Teleport pressure gets beaten by 5A. His pressure is bordeline mash safe due to him being anle to do it at mid range. To top it off you have to open him up like 6-7 times to kill, and combing his wonky hitbox makes maximizing damage a chore..

This matchup is hell, if anyone has any advice I would be very appreciative.

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How do u deal with the eltnum match up

Don't do 214c~c 66c combo on her. it only works on her when you can do 214c~c 6c anyways. If you set up orbs in neutral shes generally going to try and shoot them or whip them. both of these are unsafeish and if you are in the air you can punish with a dive. Other times shes just going to run at them and you'll have to react. You have to be careful on offense and watch out for her dp. if she guesses you trying to do 214x~b shenanigans with a correct dp guess the match immediately flips, so don't get predictable. Get vorpal as often as you can and run your setups on her and punish every dp you bait hard.  Dash c is a good tool if shes gunshot happy in neutral. A correct guess will put the match in your favor. 623c works okay against her when she pushes her self out on offense since 5c, 2c, and down gunshots are slow enough to be caught by this. Shes kind of basic on offense. Her only standing overhead is 6b. The only other thing to look out for is j.214b which is like our j.214b. Unblock able dive that leads into combo with vorpal. If you get used those options she just has normal throw/assault mixups. One thing to pay attention to is if she is trying to 5cc to reset pressure if you shield the 2nd hit (the pullin) you can 2a mash her out. Approaching her is easy with an orb out but Its even without an orb and whoever gets the right read will get initiative. 

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Yeah after grinding the SethvMerkava MU for a while yesterday offline.

 

....

 

Jesus that character is terrible designed.

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Thanks! I guess the patience strategy is pretty much the only thing we can rely on. It's a similar struggle vs Hilda, Gordeau, Yuzuriha & Vatista...
 

Merkava is most likely our worst matchup. I haven't had that much experience vs the character, but I can say that whiff punishes are incredibly important. You have to be really on point with your punishes otherwise you won't really get anywhere. His high/low is really easy to block, it's just a matter of being patient and waiting for a move with big startup like his 4C. In neutral, his air normals are a huge problem, but unlike some characters he has no method of destroying orbs at fullscreen for free meaning if he's too mash happy you get to go in. if you open him up, you better pray that you carry the round off of the momentum, because you most likely wont get in again.

It's a game of patience, as are most of Seth's hard matchups. It's most likely 7-3, so don't expect anything but an uphill battle, the character is pretty silly.

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Hi there. My and my friend recently got Under Night In Birth. We've been playing each other constantly for the past week. He mains Chaos and I play Seth (which would explain why I am in this thread). So, since this is a matchup thread, I wish to know about other people's experience with the Seth v Chaos matchup. I feel it is rather difficult for Seth should he ever get put at more than a half-screen's distance from Chaos. The lock-down possibility he has with Azhi is very crucial in the matchup and puts Seth at a disadvantage. Sure he can attempt to get in the air since Chaos's anti-air game seems to be bleh, but then when I do attempt to do so, he knocks me out of the skies with Azhi's 623B and then proceeds to get a small confirm off of it. It would seem that Seth's best bet in this matchup is to get in Chaos's face a make a string of really good reads. Especially since Chaos has 236C which gives Chaos a REALLY easy confirm into some pretty high damage on Seth. But that's just my experience, what do you guys think?

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