[UNIEL] Chaos Matchups Discussion

[Tigre]

Welcome to the Chaos Matchups Thread!

Welcome to the Chaos Matchups Thread! Feel free to ask any questions or share any information you have learned about any specific matchups you've learned in UNIEL!

[LordSpectreX]

Incoming Most Depressing Thread

 

IMO

 

Extremely Skewed Matchups; 8-2 estimate.

Vatista, Hilda, Gordeau,

 

Vatista and Hilda do a fantastic job of completely demolishing Chaos' neutral game. Hilda can snipe Azhi on reaction meaning you have to slowly work your way in as solo Chaos. You lack decent anti airs so she can abuse teleports, and while her defense is bad, blocking Chaos is not that difficult. Vatista completely dominates the air, and while she cannot snipe Azhi as well as Hilda, she can follow her slow fireballs in and you can't do anything about it due to Azhi losing to meaties Her DP is also a pain and good luck stop her jump>6D>j.C air approaches.

 

Gordeau's 66C is a huge meaty barge that kills Azhi with ease. He can essentially give no fucks and go in ham and simply react to what you do, only 6C makes him think about his approach in any way, and even then, it gets outranged by 236B236B. 

 

Hard; 7-3 estimate

Carmine, Waldstein, 

 

Only thing stopping Waldstein from being harder in my eyes, is his size and lack of mobility make him somewhat easy to zone with 6C and moves like 623B/236B. Roll also works decently well vs his long recovery moves, but you can't afford to mess up. Carmine is a complete asshole. 6B is insanely oppressive and can be used on reaction to punish most of Chaos' zoning. His strong pressure is hard to get out of and his j.C is generally uncontestable even for good characters. Carmine is brittle to mass health overuse and lacks good defense, meaning being very patient wield rewards.

 

Medium: 6-4 estimate

Nanase, Seth, Yuzruriha, Linne

 

Nanase, Seth and Linne are mostly good because of their high mobility and overall strong offense. You can't really stop Seth from flying around your head doing mixup, Nanase and Linne are just really fast with meaty projectiles and very oppressive anti-mash pressure. Yuzuriha is strong here mostly because her teleport easily punishes Chaos' extremely long recovery on his specials and slashes force you to play extremely patiently.

 

Close to Even: 5.5-4.5

Hyde, Orie, Byakuya 

 

Hyde and Orie are quite easy to zone. They've got tools to beat you on offensive and defense, but they'll have a very hard time getting in if you play well. Byakuya is similar, except that his general game is countered quite consistently by rolling to avoid his high commitment mobility and web traps placements.

 

Even: Akatsuki

 

Akatsuki has double jump to avoid Azhi zoning, he wants to get in, Chaos needs to zone him. Pretty skill based matchup. Akatsuki is more stable, but Chaos has higher potential. Probably will go slightly into Chaos' favour once developed.

 

Don't Know: Eltnum, Merkava.

 

Don't hate, participate.

[Loody]

Vs Eltnum feels like a medium/hard matchup. Azhi zoning is doable but if she has the meter she can punish with 236C and follow up on it. Her range on corner pressure also makes force function and veil off riskier than usual, so once you're in there it'll be difficult getting out. Still not as hard as Vatista/Hilda/Gordeau/Wally though

 

Haven't had much experience with Merkava either, flight seems to stay above azhi's range entirely, at first shielding seemed like a good way to bait him down, but his flight dash eats forced the recovery and lets him continue pressure. 6C might be a good punish for his air shenanigans if you have the proper spacing for it.

[MikhailLuca]

I personally don't feel the Vatista and Hilda MUs are as bad as people say they are. They're annoying sure but in Hilda's case once she gets knocked down you can just go to town since she lacks real reversals. Round start you just block and hold a button down to get Azhi in and then start swiping at her after you block stuff or see an obvious attack. It's kind of annoying and neutral is really stupid but you can also roll through projectiles to get a free punish at midrange. It's a really dumb MU but I don't think it's 8-2 by any means. You just have to be extremely careful on your lizard placement (if it dies you'll have a hard time summoning it safely) and rolls. 

Vatista is a bit more complicated, but Reflector is a much more viable option in this MU than Hilda. The thing you really have to watch out for are lasers. You want to stay at a safe mid range to reflector any projectile attempts or you can be closeup but watch out for flashkicks. Azhi is your lifeline because he will keep Vatista respectful at max range. On knockdowns you must bait DP, but other than that I feel this MU is easier than the Hilda MU because you can resummon Azhi with less difficulty. She might outrange us, but we can keep her respectful.

Gordeau... I've only fought crappy ones. :L (AKA They don't block fireball or Hide oki LOL and I get a free 3k reset) But I assume it's the pits. I've been trying to roll is 5C at certain times and if I do it right I can get in for a free punish on his recovery.

Fighting Merkava is torture, if you whiff something you're gonna get punished and Azhi specials have a lot of recovery on whiff. He has big normals to destroy Azhi and reflecting his fireballs can be hard at certain angles. 

Eltnum is hard, but not too bad I think. Just don't try reflecting bullets and bait DPs. Otherwise I'd say it's kinda like the Linne MU but a bit easier.

[Raiza57]

I would have to disagree on the Akatsuki matchup, for the very same reason Vatista is annoying, her projectile moves slow allowing her to trial behind it for a free get it, akatsuki has the exact same projectile. Only he has a double jump to make using reflect all the more dangerous. 

~Shiro

[LordSpectreX]

http://t.co/qWJxLrbZ2V

 

My new list.

 

Agreed that Akatsuki is not even. Fireball and his double jump ruin Chaos' neutral game far too much. Extremely difficult for Chaos to disrespect Akatsuki's mixup and pressure.

 

Lowered Hilda and Gordeau. Raised Carmine and Linne. 

[Doobylover]

Alright, I'm gonna discuss Chaos' overall matchups and how I view them in my own honest opinion one by one.

 

vs. Vatista: Easily one of Chaos' hardest matchups. From afar she has her orbs and lasers that can shut you out mercilessly and set up her explosive prisms in order to keep you out. Up close is even worse, as her DP is near death for Chaos, and her 66C can be really frustrating to deal with once you finally find yourself close to her. You also have to make sure your blocking is airtight, as literally one false move will reset your space, result in you taking massive damage, or both. At round start it's advised to immediately start shield guarding or retreating while holding down a button to send Azhi forward to intimidate Vatista from doing something and/or force her to come to you. If they blindly just keep throwing out orbs and lasers, just shield block it, as you'll get more GRD and eventually get vorpal. If Vatista notices what you're doing and charges just to steal vorpal from you, you can try to gain some space and close in on her, send Azhi on over to her if she isn't there yet, and/or just sit there and vorpal as well to sustain the bar and eventually make them want to try something else. When dealing with her pressure keep in mind that like Hilda, she only has one low, so when she's in the air make sure to stand guard as to avoid her [8]2C overhead (and throw attempts as well, miss those and you're back to fullscreen hell again). Chaos' B+C can be useful at long range to avoid fireballs, just be on the lookout for lasers and speed of fireball. If the fireball speed slow they might follow it and go for 66C--the B+C is perfect against that. Chaos EX 22C is a good tool for Azhi staying on top of Vatista, however assault rush-ins seem highly discouraged as Vatista can flashkick straight through them. Also, when she has meter or CS try not to jump so much as she will use flashkick to knock you out of the air.

[Doobylover]

vs. Hilda: Another one of Chaos' hard matchups, but in my opinion a lot more winnable than Vatista's. Because Hilda lacks a DP, you can gain momentum when you rush her down as well as roll through most of her attacks and get a combo started. The key to this matchup is simply playing patient and paying attention when guarding Hilda's blockstring, using B+C when you spot an opportunity and getting ever more closer towards to screw her up. Azhi is your friend in this, for she can scare Hilda into pressuring you or setting up orbs and allowing her to teleport to the other side of the screen closer to you, so at round start do make sure Azhi is riding Hilda's tail. Keep in mind that Chaos' IW is a threat to Hilda from full screen (unless she has CS), but at the same time any specials you perform at same range Hilda can not only punish with ease but steal your lizard from you and render you helpless from afar.

[Doobylover]

vs. Gordeau: This matchup isn't as scary as people would lead you to believe. Chaos does actually have some fair ground here. At round start just guard/retreat, as Chaos definitely loses any trade to infamous Gordeau. Like Hilda, the key is to simply block their attacks, wait for an eventual slip-up, and then go in swinging. Unless you find Gordeau backing away for some reason, don't worry about sending Azhi to intimidate Gordeau if he's on the offensive; it'll be of no use. Gordeau's two overheads are both pretty slow, so when you see them coming don't be afraid to start the offense with a 2B or 2C. If I recall correctly, Gordeau's shoulder tackle is safe on block, so sadly you're gonna have to respect that. Be wary of his command grab which can be evaded with an assault, be can be very tricky to see coming. When close to Gordeau, be mindful of your jumps--you don't want him to 623B (GRIM REAPAHHH) you out of the air. Chaos can punish Gordeau's 2C (slide) should he block it with his quick 2A, so keep that in mind. Be extremely careful when Gordeau has CS and if you find yourself jumping, make sure it's out of Gordeau's scythe's reach. The best position you want Gordeau is simply from afar, because he has quite a hard time against zoning ironically enough. Gordeau cannot get past the lizard except by assault, so 236B and 623B are fullscreen tools you should keep in mind. 22A/B (Hide) from afar is quite to do, because of Azhi's long recovery and Gordeau having been known to eliminate the lizard even while its hiding. Fireballs, 236A and moves mentioned above are suitable for dealing with Gordeau.

At round start, if you have 200 meter, you can punish a cocky Gordeau and gain momentum, so keep that in mind.

[RozyOracle]

I'm really sorry. This is all I'm good at. (Not mine)

 

Someone please find the strength to fight against the terror that is GURIMU REAPAHH, because I can't handle this matchup.

[Crimefighter]

gord (tackle>22a)xN is uninteruptible without 200 meter unless you shield the tackle.

also, if you block 6b he can cancel to 22a to become plus on block, so you really want to 2b it or something.

if you block grim reaper he can cancel it into ex rekka for 100 meter to become plus on block. Also the A version is safe but negative. if you know he's gonna do it you can roll past him and get a punish on the whiffed grim reaper. I don't think you can do it on reaction though.

Also, a max range/start of round B grim reaper can be punished with 236a>stuff.

[Motakshi]

gord (tackle>22a)xN is uninteruptible without 200 meter unless you shield the tackle.

also, if you block 6b he can cancel to 22a to become plus on block, so you really want to 2b it or something.

if you block grim reaper he can cancel it into ex rekka for 100 meter to become plus on block. Also the A version is safe but negative. if you know he's gonna do it you can roll past him and get a punish on the whiffed grim reaper. I don't think you can do it on reaction though.

Also, a max range/start of round B grim reaper can be punished with 236a>stuff.

 

Is there anything you can do with a shielded 66C (his tackle)? It's the single biggest issue I have with the matchup, even more so than Grim Reaper.

 

Any Gordeau who catches on that I can't deal with it can just repeat it ad infinitum until he manages to get a hit/Assimilation

[Rikir]

Is there anything you can do with a shielded 66C (his tackle)? It's the single biggest issue I have with the matchup, even more so than Grim Reaper.

 

Any Gordeau who catches on that I can't deal with it can just repeat it ad infinitum until he manages to get a hit/Assimilation

I made an entire video on this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3h2XXdWeOCM

(8:00)

[Motakshi]

I made an entire video on this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3h2XXdWeOCM

(8:00)

 

I'd watched this a while ago to help deal with GR, and I forgot all about this section.

 

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1PCbvhv9PJhfpjTpMoKFV90GqRYVTs2Xkhpwl5CbJnko/edit?pli=1#gid=0

 

Looking at Chaos's frame data... 5CC is his only normal that has a lower startup than 5?

 

Assuming that's right, my safest option is going to be throw punishing (to beat Gold Throw Assimilation/frametrap 22B/236A), and 5CC for if I think he'll go with an option I can mash out of?

[Rikir]

I'd watched this a while ago to help deal with GR, and I forgot all about this section.

 

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1PCbvhv9PJhfpjTpMoKFV90GqRYVTs2Xkhpwl5CbJnko/edit?pli=1#gid=0

 

Looking at Chaos's frame data... 5CC is his only normal that has a lower startup than 5?

 

Assuming that's right, my safest option is going to be throw punishing (to beat Gold Throw Assimilation/frametrap 22B/236A), and 5CC for if I think he'll go with an option I can mash out of?

Uhhh dont forget that you have to actually WHIFF 5C before you get to 5CC, so its the startup of 5C + 5CC. Id probably try like 5B or something though.

unrelated side note:

If Merkava does TOO LATE grab (214X grab) from full screen and you block it with Azhi Dahaka next to him. You can easily punish him with reversal 236A. Obvious but worth mentioning c:

[NeonLights23]

After playing chaos a bit. i think i can put down my fiar share of matchups.

 

IMO:

 

Extremely difficult 8-2:

Merkava

 

Merkava is pretty much the bane of our existence. You have NO ground here. He will nuke you in the air, his neutrals out-range azhi, he has a crap ton of frame advantage on his moves, most of his supers are safe on block and he's RARELY punishable. If you want to win, you gotta play full on defence and zone with azhi. but even then you cant play reckless because one TOULIE and he's back onto you again. not no mention his large hp. He does however, have a large hurt box so combo's that normally wouldn't work (i.e 623B (counter hit) 5BB J.B J.C etc) Will work on him strangely enough. play Extremely safe or you'll die. get caught by merkava and you die. try to engage and get anti-aired and you die. You gotta play using super intelligence to win this one.

 

Difficult 7-3:

Gordeau, waldstein

 

Ah, the infamous GRIMU REPAH. Believe it or not, chaos has some pretty good ground on gordeau. the fact that makes it hard is that his meaties will destroy you entirely. i suggest at the starting round you wanna FF/ retreat and use 236A for some distance. after you catch him go in swinging but don't be reckless. one bad move can turn the fight completely in his favour. watch out for when he was meter, his reversals hurt and he can pretty much confrim with whatever he wants. Don't get hit by a meaty shoulder tackle, space and zone him and come in for the kill when he's not paying attention. Don't forget to use 6C(REFLECTO) in this matchup for a free combo. Helps a lot too. Oh, try not to get hit by mortal slide (the best move in the game) as then he'll gain momentum and you'll loose it. Be careful on this one and try not to jump on him to avoid getting GRIMU REPAH'D out of the air and into his claws.

 

As for Wald, while he is a incredibly scary guy once hes got you cornered you have one thing he doesent; the ability to space him. Hard. Good walds will mainly use his Command grabs to get up to you/ assault J.C but you can give them a loving smack with 6C and get a free combo. 236C is a godsend in this match up so use it often. But note that if he DOES get in, you'll die. extremely fast. so try to prevent that.

 

(ill continue in the morning. have coursework due.)

 

Hard 6-4

Eltnum, Vatista, Carmine, Linne, Yuzuhira, Hilda, Nanase

 

I barely face a good Eltnum, ever. But when there ARE some, she will destroy you completely. With her infamous pressure and hardcore mixup, not to mention her incredible hit confirms and her godly loops, shes easily the best female character in the game (rivalling Nanase) Play extremely Cautious in this match-up. its completely momentum-based. Try to get the first hit with the standard azhi combo (236A > 236B >623A >623B) to gain some distance and damage. only go in when its save but avoid getting DP'd and avoid trying to play the full screen game the whole round. her full screen is pretty scary as her bullets have quite the bit of hit stun and damge and her 66C hits as an overhead with crazy reach that looks like a run. 6C her if you can predict it, otherwise just block when you see her rushing in, if she blockstrings, Shield and win the GRD battle, CS when shes doing a move with loads of recovery time (ex super) n go crazy on her because you'll rarely have a chance to do that. 6D > J.2C Is a saving grace here. it helps oh so much to get in on her, and if shes seeing it coming you can always change it up with 6D > J.2C > 5A or 6D > Azhi command. try not to jump too much though as it becomes repetitive and easy to see. Go for 236C everytime you can for a free combo, but be VERY careful in times when you're pressured by her, as she can frame trap you with her string-thing oh so easily. Play smart here.

 

Vatista is... Weird. You have some ground here but she also has some ground here. pretty skill based match-up. One you cant go swinging in, but cant play crazy defence too. try to catch her in the early round and try to pressure her into Flash kick. Bait it, Block it, Punish hardcore. Rinse and repeat. i dont know too much about this Match-up. ill keep you informed on this one.

 

Ah, Carmine. Having some of the best pressure in the game (Dat J.[C] tho) he will be hard, but not impossible. if you see it coming you can FF your way out of it. getting in is a lot more easier in this match up then the others because carmine cant really zone you full screen unless he has a pool of blood under you and will generally try to get close to you. smack him with azhi if he gets to reckless (most carmines will) and show him you're not a pushover. but also try not to get corner pressured because that's what carmines play style is pretty much all about. Corner pressure. remember you have no DP's so don't be afraid to Veil Off to stop the abuse. IW EXS is a very safe move at full screen and one of his only like-a-DP's he has. the goal is to do some close range damage with your combos and then let azhi do some zoning, making it safe to come back in and dish out the pain. I suggest using 22B/22A as an oki and a set up. its one of Chaos's highest ways to get damage from regular combos. when you have meter and he comes in swinging, smack him with a 6C and a IW EXS for a free 4k (4.8k on counter hit+ vorpal i belive) and teach him to FEAAAR the intelligence. 623B is nice for your blockstrings as it does give frame advantage, enough for you to revert to using normals again (if you see them stand blocking smack a 2C into the mix for more damage) and pretty much just play like its even. Non reckless-like and Intelligent.

 

Linne does everything you do but with better. Better roll, better projectile, better spacing tools, better air game. The only thing you can bragabout is that her projectile is blockable with refrecto, You wanna keep your distance in this match and only go in for coutners. her moveset and agility can easily out do everything you do. play super safe here, only go aggro when you see a chance and for god sake stop trying to backjump her KUUGA. rikr has the details below on this one.

[Rikir]

Random vs Linne notes (particularly dealing with Kuuga):

You can react to Kuugas on reaction with BC roll, but unfortunately Linne usually recovers before/same time as you do (especially if she TKs it). The only time its perfectly safe is if you do it when Linne does it at max height from her jump. (in which case youre better off running under the Kuuga if you're close enough). Kuuga > Dash cancel is also not safe, and you can 2A her out of her pressure if she tries for it after the dash cancel (watch out for DP).

Especially important is that you don't jump back  when you see Kuuga, its better to just sit and shield it, getting hit by it in the air gives her too much advantage. I mention this because all Chaos players have the habit of jumping back j.236A anything they dont like (myself included) and it doesnt work against Kuuga.

[Crimefighter]

Figured I'd post this here as well as in the main thread since it's hyde specific (variants probably exist for other characters)

Also while I'm here notes on rolling through stuff

gord:

5C- When you punish 2a>2b will whiff because God hates you. Instead do 2b>2c>stuff. It should work.

236a- The only punish you get is throw, but you are mad plus, so if you'd rather have pressure you can do that.

623a- You can get a 2a punish

also, gord's hitbox is messed up and so 22a/b>5c/2c>combo is really hard in this match(still possible though)

wald:

Everything you roll leaves him at + frames #RIP

yuzu:

In order to roll a sword slash and punish you'd need to be really close. Given how fast the slashes are you'd need to roll extremely early. Not a viable strat IMO

Carmine:

If he does 6[c] in a blockstring and you roll it you're like +2 or 3. Also sometimes 6[c] just beats 2b IDK maybe I just have bad reactions.

[LordSpectreX]

That roll doesn't crossup. The crossup protection means the roll actually has to finish before it becomes a left right mixup.

 

Also the meaty automatically loses vs back tech and you don't want to commit Azhi to a 22B that will end up whiffing. Just go for j.214 meaty.

[Crimefighter]

It does, if you watch the video hyde is blocking normally and still gets hit. Cross-up protection in this game seems to make absolutely no sense, I think some things are just hard coded to break it, but that's just my guess.

[Tari]

It does, if you watch the video hyde is blocking normally and still gets hit. Cross-up protection in this game seems to make absolutely no sense, I think some things are just hard coded to break it, but that's just my guess.

 

Assuming the defending player isn't locked in blockstun, projectiles must be blocked either from the side the projectile is on, or from the side the attacking player is on. In this case, since Chaos switches to the same side as the 'projectile' (Ahzi), the defending player has to switch block.

 

If I recall correctly, it's universally true, and is actually fairly important for both Chaos and Seth in terms of wakeup/mixup game.

[Crimefighter]

What you said is only sometimes true.

As hyde you can jump past the opponent and do ex orbiter, its blockable in both directions. Both hyde and the fireball are behind the opponent but the cross-up is prevented.

[Tari]

Each projectile has a 'point of origin', so to speak. Seth's orb and Ahzi have the origin points set at where they become active. Most other projectiles in the game have their origin points set at where their character performs their startup frames (even things like Carmine trap and Hilda sword rain).

 

Players can always block away from a projectile's point of origin. The only reason it's confusing is because a projectile's point of origin usually does not align with the projectile's visual marker. Notably, this is why you cannot block Hilda's j.214B by walking towards Hilda, even if the sword rain orb is positioned behind you.

 

It's technically possible to cross up with any projectile in the game, it's just that most projectiles, even if you jump over the opponent, they can continue to down-back the original direction because of the origin point, meaning that you would have to jump over them a second time to get a cross up effect.

 

 

I should clarify that in the mechanics, didn't realize how confusing this was. Thanks for bringing it up. By the by, you're technically right when you say some things are hardcoded to break it, it's just not 'breaking' it, per se. :P

[Crimefighter]

In that hyde example the fireball's point of origin would have to be well behind hyde's sprite for that to be true, at no point during that sequence was hyde in front of the defending character. It is possible to cross-up with orbiter though, I've seen it happen, something involving rekkas>ex orbiter. I think there's something about the rekkas that gets around the detection since it seems like it's not possible to cross-up raw.

Is there an interview where the devs have talked about this BTW?

[Tari]

In that hyde example the fireball's point of origin would have to be well behind hyde's sprite for that to be true, at no point during that sequence was hyde in front of the defending character. It is possible to cross-up with orbiter though, I've seen it happen, something involving rekkas>ex orbiter. I think there's something about the rekkas that gets around the detection since it seems like it's not possible to cross-up raw.

Is there an interview where the devs have talked about this BTW?

 

I may be misunderstanding your example, but if you crouch block the air EX Orbiter, you should get hit by it for blocking the wrong way (assuming you're holding the stick towards Hyde). If you're stand blocking in neutral, you'll usually have crossup protection.

 

If I'm thinking of the right thing, the rekkas > EX Orbiter string punishes people who switch block, because it isn't actually a crossup. It looks like one, though, and people end up blocking the wrong way because of it. Rekkas > CS > EX Orbiter is fairly annoying, too, because that actually does require players to switch block.

 

The devs never went into detail on it, this is just what we got from looking into it for a few months.

 

 

edit: if you can prove/disprove any other theories, I'm all ears. :D We mostly stopped digging into the system mechanics a few months ago. Not even sure we finished working out counterhits/proration/etc. beyond a basic understanding.