[UNIEL] Byakuya Matchups Discussion

[Tigre]

Welcome to the Byakuya Matchups Thread!

Welcome to the Byakuya Matchups Thread! Feel free to ask any questions or share any information you have learned about any specific matchups you've learned in UNIEL!

[Loryuo]

There is only one matchup I have trouble with the most, and that is Vatista. 

 

She seems to be really good at making sure Byakuya can't do any of his shenanigans in the air in a way of getting in and her orb things on the ground seems to be good at keep you holding down back more often, than trying to get in, so i'm just wondering how should we go about this match?

 

I assume it's one of those get in and she's dead matchups based on what little knowledge i know of playing a good Vatista player(only like 2 or 3 matches total)

[Ryd']

Unlike most zoning characters, Vatista has a solid reversal option with her flash kick, which is invincible, air-unblockable, and can cover a variable chunk of space depending on which version is used.  B-version also leaves you at almost full screen, and you have to take any crystals that may be set into consideration as well.  So, no, it's probably not going to be a matchup where getting in is the win condition.

[Loryuo]

Hmm, then I guess it's just a matter of playing very defensive against her even after getting in to avoid getting flash kicked back into her keep away game?

[Big Ben]

I'll chime in with my own experiences too then.

 

Linne: Feels even. Her buttons are slightly bigger than ours and she has a legit pressure reset in the fireball and a DP but beyond that you're both fast and want to be on offense. Being patient and having a solid defense will win you this as in neutral she'll more often than not beat us out and get pressure going. Her only ground overhead is 5C[C] and I haven't run into that once as of yet. Shield assault overheads if they ever happen and it's your turn. Poking out with 2B if she wants to get cute with resetting pressure is a very viable option but be careful of BC, she can call you out with it pretty well. Webs are not particularly good here since her normals are fairly large and sweeping and 6C erases floor webs.

 

tl;dr be patient, block, poke out when you see a chance and watch out for BC

 

Oreo: Slight disadvantage. Her pokes are slightly longer and less whiff punishable than yours and has a DP. 3B and danzai shut down any attempts to come in from the air or to be cute with web dashes. 66B doesn't low profile anything significant enough to be useful. 2B is your friend here. Once you get in and in the corner you can pretty much do your thing. Just don't jump and you'll be fine. Also 6B exists I guess.

 

tl;dr: 2B is your friend, don't jump ever

 

Merkava: Suffering. As you might expect his buttons are slightly better than yours. You lay a web, you get eaten. You get in the corner, you die. You get him down and Edward Spaghettihands bails him out. You have no real good antiairs and Merkava controls the air. 66B is nowhere close to long enough to be useful, at least in neutral. Basically hope for mistakes. And maybe 2B. Maybe.

 

tl;dr: pray

 

Gordo: Very volatile. Not quite as bad as the other top 3 matchups, at least to my experience. You slip up once, you die, but at least you sorta have the tools to deal with this matchup. His fullscreen buttons are an issue. Mortal Slide is an issue. GURIMU RIIPAA is an issue. Everything he does erases your webs. You can't jump at all because GURIMU RIIPAA catches you out. You can't jump in over mortal slide because the scythe hits such a huge area above him on the way back. And when you inevitably get cornered you have to worry about command grabs, 6B which leads to 3k and guessing again, 2C if you wanna try jumping out, 22A pressure resets and whatever else you can think of. The only solution is to never let him breathe. You theoretically have the tools to deal with him, they're just very unsafe and not particularly reliable, but it's better than nothing. 66B is one of your better friends in this matchup, just don't get predictable with it. If you can get closer and play the midrange game, just be careful and don't get intimidated. Try to catch him with 2B or something (it's still your friend) and capitalize on every single opportunity you get. Playing it safe will probably get you killed since he does it better so just try to get in medium range and hit him with something unexpected. If you do get him cornered and get your knockdown do not ever be in the air and hang slightly out of command grab range. If he does GURIMU RIIPAA into 236C there's nothing you can do but at least he uses meter for it. Tough matchup but doable.

 

tl;dr: get into midrange and play wild but not stupid, look for holes, 2B is your friend blah blah blah, hang out of grab range when you get a knockdown, don't jump ever, 66B

 

Holy shit this was long. This is probably very incorrect and pretty opinionated but I hope I can get some feedback from people who know their shit better than I do.

[smellthejava]

What can I do against Merkava? 

 

I just feel like I can't do anything against him. 

[Big Ben]

What can I do against Merkava? 

 

I just feel like I can't do anything against him. 

Yeah, this really feels like our worst matchup. From the little I have I can say a few things though that might help.

 

First, if you get a knockdown in the corner and expect 236C you should jump over him and j.2[C]. The spaghetti hands have no hitbox behind him and you'll get another good corner knockdown from it. If not it's still your turn.

Beware of web swings, 4B can basically shut down anything you do in the air. Also your dash is pretty fast and safe so you can sorta do little dashes and inch towards him. I have no answers to flight oki, our antiairs are shit enough to begin with. 

 

That's pretty much all I have, this matchup really is suffering.

[Justice7541]

Speaking of getting in, how does Byakuya even get in on Hilda? He doesn't seem to have any easy approach options that he can toss out at fullscreen and even when he gets to midscreen it feels like he's still too slow to take advantage of any of the gaps in her midscreen pressure.

[Diaphone]

Speaking of getting in, how does Byakuya even get in on Hilda? He doesn't seem to have any easy approach options that he can toss out at fullscreen and even when he gets to midscreen it feels like he's still too slow to take advantage of any of the gaps in her midscreen pressure.

 

When you're full screen, slowly inch your way forward.

 

Once you're midscreen, Wait for the hilda to end a string in something negative, then press your advantage. For example, the spike that comes out of the floor (22X series) is negative and can't be canceled into anything. If you do dash B in a range it will reach immediately afterwards, and hilda presses a button you'll beat her out.

 

Don't be afraid to just sit there and block, her midscreen mixups are all reactable. Look for the overhead animation, not the flash. The spike from that comes from behind you is +, dont hit anything. The spike from the front is negative and you can press your advantage. Make her over commit or end in something unsafe.

[TD]

Can you stay in the air and simply threaten with j224cc? Seems like a useful gimmick on paper, once in awhile, though I'm finding trouble thinking when you would have the time to do this. Perhaps in preparation of wall spike, or a skewer attempt. Hilda does sort of have to commit once she throws out most normals, and her safer attacks are ironically minus on block - not enough to be punished outright in most cases, though, especially fighting a byak.

Oh yes, definitely block though, get that vorpal and then getting in should be ok. Once you're in you can take advantage of the same problem byak has: no defense.

[Nerk]

Once Hilda does 2CC or 5[C], she must special cancel (she can't whiff cancel them). Every special she does besides the spike that comes from behind you is minus, and if blocked, you have time to do 'something'. 2B, dash forward 2B, jump forward to beat her 2B, dash forward and block; make a decision based one where you are and where she is. The spike that comes from behind is interruptible with 2B or 2C or simply jumping forward for a full punish, but if you block this attack then you must keep blocking another string.

[Justice7541]

Random Byakuya matchup notes based on all the people I've played thus far.  Some are better than others so take with a grain of salt I guess.

 

Linne:

- j.2[C] is really good for air-to-air.

- Her normals beat yours if she put your hurtbox into then (i.e. press a button) otherwise you have more range.

- Max-range pokes like 2B will get hit by first hit of DP then you will fall out, giving free punish.

 

Hyde:

- Block a lot, his pressure is good but he has no mixups.

- Standing shield his 5[C] then immediately switch to crouchblock in case he does 3B.

- DP will beat your shit, respect it.  Can be safejumped.

 

Eltnum:

- DP works the same way as Linne's

- 2B moves her forward a lot and is fast, use 5A or 2B to challenge it.

- Respect her strings and learn when to mash/jump out, it's not that bad once you know her tricks

 

Waldstein:

- 5B beats assault j.A/B if you do it preemptively

- Easily safejumped

- Webs are easy lockdown.  Space it so he has to attack to destroy webs but you can reach him with 5B/2B when he does.

- Whiff j.B after B followup sometimes hits him and makes the combo drop.  Do whiff j.A/C instead.

 

Vatista:

- Probably Byakuya's worst matchup IMO

- Flashkick will hit pretty much everything you do and can't be safejumped.  Max range 5C/2C or 5C/2C whiff 2A are your only safe options vs. flashkick but she can press buttons to take pressure if you use these.  Everything else will lose/be punished by FK on reaction.  Not sure how to deal with this in general.

- Orbs and laser are really hard to get past.  Best way seems to be to wait until she throws a fireball then dash jump and block.  Will have to repeat this multiple times to get in as you will get pushed back constantly.

- You will likely lose by time over if you ever get FK'd out once you are in since getting in takes so long.  Again, not sure how to deal with this.

- Don't use 66B/C.  She can jump over it and fireball you.

- Crystal 5A spam is almost inescapable.  if your opponent does this a lot save your meter/Vorpal so you can VO/GT out.

- If she ever does overhead B divekick you can shield and punish with 5A or 2B.  As far as I can tell this will be your only real opportunity to get damage on her if she is playing smart so make it count.

 

Gordeau:

- Probably Byakuya's other worst matchup lol

- Try to stay just outside of Grim Reaper range.  Shield Mortal Slide if he does that instead.  Punish whiffs with 66B.

- EX Grim Reaper catches literally everything.  A bit slow at 7f startup so try to bait it out with raw blocked 2B or 236A or 5C/2C whiff 2A if the Gord isn't paying attention.

- EX Grim can be safejumped.  Watch for EX Assimilation, if you see him holding the scythe during superflash then block, otherwise jump.

- If you ever get put in block you are pretty much guaranteed to eat huge damage.  YOLO mash and try to at least catch him on a gap since you're gonna die anyway if you don't.

- 66C to 22A blockstring loop is pretty much inescapable since Byakuya doesn't have a 5f jab.  You can shield 66C and try to mash out of 22A but Gord can just 214A on reaction and get a counterthrow.  Best bet is to block and hope he gets bored and tries a gold throw so you can tech out.  Alternately, if midscreen, just let yourself get hit by 66C so you fly out but watch out because he can confirm to Mortal Slide for a combo if he's fast enough.

- If you ever get momentum try to sit on all the GRD you can so Gord never gets CS.  Once he has CS pretty much everything confirms to 4k+ so it's probably better to not let him get it ever even if it means you don't get to use yours either.

 

Hilda:

- Need to block and be patient but not too bad otherwise.  Still an annoying character though.

- At fullscreen, stagger dash and crouch under lasers.

- At midscreen, block low and watch for 5[C] and lantern overheads.

- If she ever does low spike, 66B gets you in free.

- 623B (spike from behind) is super plus on block.  Startup animation looks like 5[C] but you can block it both ways, including while dashing forward.  Easiest way to approach on it is to do 6[6] when you see the animation and block back if you see a flash.  If she does 623B you will autoblock it while dashing.

- At close range, Hilda is pretty free but watch for 2B if you get pushed out of her deadzone.  She will probably try to jump out of 2B/2C gap and do divesword, frametrap it or AA with 5B/3C.

 

Merkava:

- Not that bad of a matchup.  Probably the easiest of the so-called "top 3" (or as I call them, "Gordeau + Vatista + the other two whatever")

- Grabarm is unsafe.  Dash in after it.

- Standard approach tactics apply.  Mostly watch for 5C whiff cancel 5A.

- 3C is free vs. Merk.  Run under him and charge it while he is flying.  Release whenever he tries to dive or j.C, otherwise let it charge to full and hit him out of the air.  Don't use 5B as j.C beats it.

- All of Merkava's reversals are easily safejumped.  236C is safe though, just settle for making him burn meter.

 

Yuzu:

- Annoying matchup but again not that bad.

- She can theoretically keep you out forever with battous and win by time over but she probably won't/will mess up.  Just stagger dash in and keep blocking until you get your chance.

- Mad free once you get in.  No real reversals so do whatever you want.  IW can reversal but is super slow.

 

Byakuya mirror:

- Lol

- Web shuts down Byakuya really well (lol) because it keeps him from web pulling for mobility + he has tons of opportunities to set up a wall.  Just 5B/2B your way through them.

- Whoever does j.2[C] first wins.  Can't be reliably AA'd either.

- Byakuya has no reversals but he also can't use spacing to make blockstrings safer cause if you can reach them, they can reach you.  There's gonna be a lot of web sets and rekkas to end blockstrings so just block and wait for your chance to retake pressure.

- Putting a C web above Byakuya keeps him from doing web set at that location (he will float into it and get hit if he tries).  Good for being the one to set up a web wall while denying them the ability to do the same back to you.

- Burn your GRD whenever you get it since otherwise you're just stocking up more for him to steal back if he ever hits you.

[TagAnarchy]

So, I've taken a notice that Hydes really enjoy using max range 6B[1]>5C as a corner pressure tool. At max range, Byakuya doesn't seem to have buttons fast or far reaching enough to get him. From what I've gathered, really the best choice would be to barrier and wait until he's pushed back. After getting enough space to where the 6B[1] whiffs, you get a free rekka punish.

[Skye]

Hyde doesn't have a 6c, I'm assuming you mean 5c.

[TagAnarchy]

Yes, thank you. Fixed. I think I just got used to it being "6C" since I always just hold 6 anyway.

[QSpec]

Any vs Carmine advice?

[TagAnarchy]

Carmine and Byakuya work on the same principle of unrelenting pressure and setups without a reliable get out option if they start getting pressured themselves.

In terms of the general matchup, you want to establish your pressure first and keep it tight so that carmine can't breathe. If Byakuya so much as gives Carmine a moment to properly space so he can get a puddle out and start his pressure, the only thing Byakuya can do is hope that Carmine drops his pressure so that webs can be set up once more.

One thing of note that I keep handy is that if carmine does start his pressure, one of the easiest ways out is to get put into a blockstring and wait for carmine to throw out the blood wheel. Even with a puddle out, there's just enough space to poke Carmine with 2B and begin establishing pressure. Don't try this if Carmine throws out his Blood Spear to end the block string. It pushes Byakuya out of 5/2A range, and Carmine can stuff any of Byakuya's other buttons at that range.

I'd go more in depth, but I'm at work. Hopefully this helps out some.

[TagAnarchy]

One major note that extends to hilda, carmine, vatista, and eltnum(at low altitudes), is that you never EVER place webs from full screen against any of the aforementioned characters if they have 200 meter without having either established the fear of god in your opponent or having Chain Shift handy because you will get punished by their Infinite Worths without question.

[QSpec]

Yeah that is helpful.  A lot of my issue is simply being new and not knowing what blockstrings are true and what the relative frame data is (like what beats what).

 

I did notice watching SonicFox in Winter Brawl 9, that he doesn't often go into seemingly infinite block strings (unlike every Carmine I fight online) which I take to mean that Carmine's blockstring is eventually vulnerable to a good read or a lucky guess?

 

What are some common round openers for us?  Round start always seems like a disadvantage for Byakuya to me.

[TagAnarchy]

<Words>

What are some common round openers for us?  Round start always seems like a disadvantage for Byakuya to me.

I'll address this first, since I've been meaning to lab this for a while. Mind you, this might be a bit of a read.

 

Byakuya's round openers are kind of poor, especially when you consider the fact that near everyone has a projectile they can start a round with or simply outrange him with their normals/special moves

My most common/safest round starter is just to backdash or back jump>Assault>Web to provide yourself enough space to start laying webs unhindered. At that point it's all about knowing how your opponent likes to start their rounds. I'll just give a few of the most common examples I can think of / have experience with.

At round start, if your opponent:

 

Has a tendency to jump in/assault:

3C, which leads into a jump cancel combo

 

Has a tendency to backdash:

Dash C, it wont hit most unless they aren't blocking*, but it'll at least put them into blockstun which gives you freedom of choice as to how you'll continue pressure from there

*Exception to this are the following characters whose timing goes from strict to open in round start BD punishes:

Hardest to punish (Chaos) (Carmine) (Seth, Yuzu, Hilda) (Merkava, Waldstein, Byakuya) Easiest to punish

The closer you get to the left of the list, the closer to the end of their BD recovery frames you'll be when having to connect.

 

Has a tendency to use projectiles (exceptions: Vatista & Hilda):

Jump Back > C Web > A Follow-up

Has a tendency to use forward moving specials (examples: Byak's/Seth's 623x, Orie's 236x, etc.)

Air 2[C] > full combo

Grim Reaper (623B ONLY):

The best thing to do is to block. If you're feeling frisky, you can always trade with 5C, 2B, or 2C. I recommend blocking though.

Tl;Dr These are just varying options that he has, but if you aren't versed in how your opponent likes to start their rounds or your opponent likes to start rounds differently each time, then the default backdash or back jump>web still fares as a far better option to start the round with at any given time.

[TagAnarchy]

Yeah that is helpful.  A lot of my issue is simply being new and not knowing what blockstrings are true and what the relative frame data is (like what beats what).

 

I did notice watching SonicFox in Winter Brawl 9, that he doesn't often go into seemingly infinite block strings (unlike every Carmine I fight online) which I take to mean that Carmine's blockstring is eventually vulnerable to a good read or a lucky guess?

 

<words>

 

I'll address the rest because this is shorter. Pretty much everyone's blockstrings are infinite online. Offline though, there are some holes in his strings that can be taken advantage of. As I learn more about each character's primary blockstrings, i'll update this.

I might just end up making a google doc of Byakuya matchup particulars for each character.

[Tari]

Yeah that is helpful.  A lot of my issue is simply being new and not knowing what blockstrings are true and what the relative frame data is (like what beats what).

 

I did notice watching SonicFox in Winter Brawl 9, that he doesn't often go into seemingly infinite block strings (unlike every Carmine I fight online) which I take to mean that Carmine's blockstring is eventually vulnerable to a good read or a lucky guess?

 

What are some common round openers for us?  Round start always seems like a disadvantage for Byakuya to me.

The Carmine infinite blockstring is quite infinite, unfortunately, assuming they're doing the right string. However, if you have vorpal and he's doing it, he's losing more health than you are, and you can guard thrust him away at many points.

As a character without a reversal, even shielding the right spots won't really give you any reasonable opportunity to get out, either.

Fortunately, the infinite blockstring has no mixup in it, so you can just block until he decides to do something else or you get bored and VO/guard thrust him away.