[CPEX] Tsubaki Yayoi Changes and Discussion

[chzchan]

Oh man I did some gimmick exploration at around 4 AM last night with 421D and here's what I came up with. I am going to take this far.

 

And yes that is a green grab.

 

Sister gimmick using 421A to condition the opponent not to jump after the stagger caused by the grab. Still as gimmicky though. Requires fear.

 

Here are some more shenanigans I recorded while I was just messing around in the lab.

[KonannFriends]

Ummm started playing around with tsubaki. Going to leave. Some bnbs but I don't get how I'm supposed to dp mid combo and still keep going afterwards

[Airk]

Ummm started playing around with tsubaki. Going to leave. Some bnbs but I don't get how I'm supposed to dp mid combo and still keep going afterwards

 

Watch Daedron's CPE basic combo video; It should give you an idea of how it looks.

[TheGreatReptar]

Ummm started playing around with tsubaki. Going to leave. Some bnbs but I don't get how I'm supposed to dp mid combo and still keep going afterwards

You can either cancel the DP as soon as you possibly can into j.214A which gets you back on the ground the faster than just DPing, or after a little bit of a delay you cancel into j.236A. Canceling into j.236A makes you fall slightly faster, then when you hit the ground you won't have the normal landing recovery that DP has.

 

Doing j.214A does have a drawback that it's spacing specific. If you're too close, the j.214A will actually hit. If you're DPing after 5CC, this is almost never a problem. Any other normal can place you too close. j.236A pretty much always works if the DP hits, as it also moves you forward a bit to connect with 5C. 

[TheGreatReptar]

So I've had recording equipment for a good while now and feel I haven't been utilizing it enough, but I really don't know what I could record. Does anyone have anything that they'd want put into video form?  I can't promise nice editing and all that, but I can stitch together stuff in a logical sequence. 

 

Some thoughts I've had are like, optimal punish combos with various resource amounts, possibly a narrated character overview, or something similar. 

[chzchan]

I also happen to have equipment but not editing software or skill. I focus on data and gimmicks and usually just put out short clips instead of full videos now.

If you want to, though this is something I was planning on making eventually, make a short video explaining how relative vertical air positioning affects oki after ending with j.214X. Been wanting to make it for a while but I have been busy and I am still in the process of learning how to stitch things together and use proper font color, placement, and timing and all that. Still super new to all of this. If anything I should be asking for tips even though you say you can't promise nice editing. Probably way better than what I can do.

[KonannFriends]

It's really been pissing me off the

At all the izayoi players have the biggest advocate in the world. Skd.. ( love him) but yeah he records all kinds of stuff.

You know I would like someone to have A video that shows specific punishes to different characters supers and defensive options. I not sure how serious you are about tsubaki, but even things like no tech situations, roll punishes, safe jump setups. Or character specific stuff that you've found out yourself or someone has told you such as a specific option select against a certain characters pressure. Or a way to deal with a special move a character abuses.( gauntlet hades,Amane pressure,) a lot of stuff.

[KonannFriends]

)

[chzchan]

I can easily do all of that actually since I have all of them in mind and written down across multiple evernote documents. I just need to find the time to convert them into video form and make them watchable. Maybe once I finish bringing one more prototype gimmick into concept stage and get all of Tsubaki's data confirmed on the wiki I can put some time into addressing each and every point you noted. I'm sure Reptar would be happy to as well. Is there anything else you would like found out or done?

[Kiba]

Or character specific stuff that you've found out yourself or someone has told you such as a specific option select against a certain characters pressure. Or a way to deal with a special move a character abuses.( gauntlet hades,Amane pressure,) a lot of stuff.

The thing with dealing with something like that is that, there isn't any solid counterattack that can deal with these sort of character specifics. With Gauntlet Hades, I could suggest for you to use a DP, or Anti air it, which is very unreliable by the way. Both of these options require you to have good reactions, otherwise the opponent is just going to counter hit you. Instant blocking makes it easier to poke out of his stuff since there it is a bigger gap, but again, this boils down to how well you can react to these things. Amane, his pressure is pretty, inconsistent I should say, and it's unreliable to deal with his kind of stuff because again it requires you to have good reactions, or guess in anticipation. I know you were giving examples, but you see my point. The same will hold true for other characters in that kind of situation. You can see where I'm coming from.

As for making videos on general tech like safe jump setups, have you look at the video thread? @TheGreatReptar made a video showcasing Tsubaki oki variations here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kp1NmExU3c8 I have thought about showcasing various Tsubaki stuff, but I'm making no promises. It would be nice, but it's down as to whether I can do it.

 

Now, to all of you, regarding the sticky threads (the video thread in particular), I know they look like a hot mess right now. That's due to the forum update, and Shtkn is still sorting out stuff. I know it look messy but please bear with it until I can sort it out.

[TheGreatReptar]

I'm actually slightly annoyed that there's now 5 enders to that combo with 2C>22B being the best for charge gain. Don't know if I should rerecord that video or not.

[chzchan]

Yeah I remember seeing Konan use that ender a ton in the FT10 against Dogura. It worked really well due to the minimum 0.5 charge you get.

[chzchan]

I think I got a fuzzy setup going if any of you are interested in trying it out. You get actual reward off of it thanks to j.214D and it also makes attempting the setup safe. Then you can spend more resources to get even more reward like I did in the example combos. I think I would still classify this as a gimmick because of the j.D stuff, but I think it is pretty solid at least on the characters that it works on.

God I love j.214D so much in this version. It is just so amazing. You can make it plus on block at certain heights.

[Airk]

That's pretty nifty.  And so far beyond the level I am at right now. x.x

[chzchan]

I have A TON of tech that I have yet to post here because I have been busy. Here's just copypasta from my notes of something I have been working on for the past couple days:

j.214D vertical spacing long startup normal links

When doing any air combo starting with jump canceling 2CC you can adjust spacing in the air with sj.BB in order to allow a ridiculously large hard knockdown frame window so normals other than 2A and 2B can be used to continue the combo on the ground. This is because they very very top of j.214D's hitbox connects with the opponent while Tsubaki is under them so she hits the ground and recovers much earlier. This is pretty much taking the augmenting of knockdown frame advantage by positioning yourself below the opponent before j.214A/B a step further.

 

Using sj.BB by itself gets you a bit more damage but is not that consistent and can be unstable because of the 623C > j.236{A}(w) route. Using sj.BB > dj.BB is a bit more consistent to at least allow j.214D to connect without fail, but there are subtleties here depending on when you cancel 623C into j.236{A} and how high you catch them with 5C since it affects their height when being juggled by 2CC before the jump cancel.

 

Biggest things are what you can do when you touch the ground though. 

 

Conventional routes after j.214D:

• 2A5C2C > X
• 2A5B > X
• 2B5C2C > X
• 623C > j.236{A}(w) > 5C2C > X

 

Possible links after j.214D with adjusted air spacing:

• 22B
• 236A
• 3C
• 214B
• 6B
• 6C
• 6A
• 5C*

*These are listed by difficulty and 5C is the absolute hardest to get to happen because it requires you to hit the opponent right as they touch the ground and bounce from j.214D's hard knockdown. This is immensely difficult. Just know that the max hard knockdown time you get off of this is ~26 frames or a bit more.

 

So these links allow you to do a ton of end combo setups for charges or oki anywhere on the screen depending on starter and also get some decent combo extensions off of conventional midscreen combo routes. Oh yeah, even off of a 5A starter, you can still get j.214D > 6C to connect which is amazing. This means practical 1 charge midscreen ghetto 6C delay projectile oki is a thing again with this being a replacement for followup 22[D] no longer wallsplatting midscreen.

 

Combo extension examples:

• 214B > X
• 6C > 214B > X
• 6CC > j.X
• 5C2C > X

 

Combo ender examples:

• 3CC
• 214B
• 6C jc

 

Charge generation setups:

• 22B > 5D
• 6B(B) > 22B > 5D
• 6C > 22|B| > 5D
• 6A > 22|B| > 5D

 

Oki setups:

• 6C > 421{X}
• 6A > 421D*

*This setup costs 1 charge on top of the one spent on j.214D but it is super legit midscreen since it will catch everything except no tech and backwards roll, but you will get guaranteed pressure off of backwards roll and no tech allows you to pick up into a combo with 2A/2B.

 

Still in prototype stage.

[Airk]

Videos please. @_@

[chzchan]

Will make a short one soon, but I definitely want to go more in depth with full videos not just for this stuff but all the tech I haven't even reported on in any form just because of the sheer mass of things I have figured out.

Oh wait here, let me post a couple short videos I made. I may start just infodumping my notes here when I get the chance since I have been keeping to myself for a while.

623C > j.236D Confirms and Gimmicks 

Various Charge Generating Combos

I'll get to making a video to showcase the j.214D long startup link stuff soon. Hopefully I have enough time today, but I really could have been done by now if I had just hit the record button on my LGP while doing my 2am - 5am training room tech labbing for the past couple days.

[chzchan]

Videos please. @_@

Okay here you go.

j.214D Vertical Spacing Long Startup Links and Setups

It is pretty much sj.BB > dj.BB after 2CC in order to get things to work nicely. If you cancel 623C into j.236{A}(w) super early during a standard midscreen combo, the opponent will be juggled higher so you'll have to do sj.B > dj.BB instead in order to still connect j.214D.

[Airk]

This sounds promising, since I am still struggling with the dash 2A pickup after normal j.214D stuff.

[chzchan]

Well you sacrifice a bit of damage by using j.BBs instead of j.CCs, but it makes the links infinitely easier, especially if you go for the standard routes rather than the longer startup normals I showcased.

The only thing is that you will get sideswitched midscreen unless you do a neutral double jump rather than a forward double jump after the first j.BB (8 instead of 9). I don't mind this too much since I usually only go for the route when I am near the corner.

Also, picked it up from Errol and Kuresu, but you should pretty much 100% of the time try to do air combos with j.BB > dj.CC instead of any other combination of air normals (unless you want to do j.D extender shenanigans) because of how it spaces you relative to your opponent in the air. It doesn't get the max j.214D hard knockdown time since that actually requires all those j.BBs, but it does get enough to allow 6B to link and it actually deals optimal damage (as in slightly more than just doing j.C > j.CC). If 6B can link then you have ~22 frames to work with which means 214B, 22B, and 3C along with the standard 2A/2B should work flawlessly. I make this recommendation not just for use with j.214D, but in every case you decide to do an air ender because it makes catching rolls and blue beating so much easier and consistent.

Going to copypasta some of my notes in a bit since I have some free time.

[Airk]

Huh. Okay. I'll try that!