Jump to content

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

Kiba

[CPEX] Valkenhayn Changes and Discussion Thread

Recommended Posts

One more thing ....does 6B hit Amane? Because with all these changes 6B BETTER HIT ANANE

Sent from my LG-MS695 using Tapatalk 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

One more thing ....does 6B hit Amane? Because with all these changes 6B BETTER HIT ANANE

Sent from my LG-MS695 using Tapatalk 2

6B already hits Amane but you have to delay it as it depends of his height. If however you're talking about a hitbox change concerning either 6B or Amane's hurtbox, then we don't know anything about that.

After checking some matches, I finally understood what happened to mondlicht.

Before reading my explanation, please watch this first.

The combo done was started with an N starter so Isa (the Taokaka player) didn't tech because of anything related to hitstun decay.

I would say that it actually looks like Mondlicht's untechable time was roughly divided by half however, if the opponent comes in contact with the corner, it wallsticks and becomes fully untechable (so far, I've never seen anyone tech before touching the ground. I might be wrong mind you.).

This is probably the biggest nerf we have had so far because it affects actually 3 things:

-Human corner carry: Probably the first thing you might think of. However, we got ways around it especially with wolf gauge.

-Corner oki: If you have been around here for a while, you probably know that one of the best oki we have is tk214B>6C>3C. Problem here is that because of Mondlicht's change, we might not always be able to do tk214B>6C if the opponent is too low. In order to get the right height, we would need to do 5B>2C>tk214B. However, 5B>2C drops in particularly long combos which means that if we try to optimize our damage output, the ender would become in the end 2C>tk214B>3C.

This implies that we will have to sacrifice an important amount of damage to go for that ender rather than the jBBC or hjBABBC one.

-Optimized corner damage: Mondlicht's nerf and the fact we have less time to hit with it would also mean that 2C>tk214B>CT doesn't work anymore. If we consider it this way, the only reliable ways to combo into CT would be 6B(1) FC and Corner throw>CT which indirectly nerf it and Valk's potential damage output.

Few other thoughts:

-About Rozen, I first thought that it was an important nerf but it actually allow us to corner carry from human mode without burning any wolf gauge. It also allows us to combo with his throw without using wolf gauge for a decent corner carry so the pros in my opinion outweighs the cons.

-If wjC is indeed faster, it would mean that the IAD wjB>wjC route isn't character specific anymore which is quite useful.

-The fact that Jasu tried to do jB>j214B>9D>wjB might imply that doing it is possible. If that's the case, it would mean that j214B>9D>wjB>wjA>human combos would still be a thing thus allowing us to conserve roughly the same corner carry by sacrificing some wolf gauge.

 

 

So, what are everybody's thoughts on CP2 Valkenhayn? My opinion of him is almost finalized, so I'm a bit curious about what everybody else thinks at this point. 

In a few words, I would say he's pretty much Valk 1.1 with his 1.0 mixup back. However, he got now better ways to combo without using his wolf gauge which makes his vortex much deadlier than in 1.1. Wolf grab first felt like a huge nerf but I would rather have combos that use less gauge rather than rely on his grab like in 1.1. The fact that it got a special cancel however gives us a really interesting option midscreen.

Matchups-wise, Litchi's nerfs should make the MU much easier for us. Some troublesome matchups like Mu, Rachel, Kokonoe, Azrael or Hazama also should be much easier. Characters who looks like they will be rather dangerous threats in 2.0 are Nu, Bang, Bullet (Her rewards being stronger and her drive still being amazing against wolf movement will help her quite a lot) and, maybe Taokaka. Though, it's debatable.

Overall, we got a slightly weaker version than 1.0 Valk but if we consider the nerfs most of the other characters had, 2.0 Valk might be better matchup-wise than in 1.0. It's definetely obvious that he's much better than his 1.1 counterpart but figuring out whether he's better than 1.0 Valk completely depends of how much the matchups will change.

A few other things that weren't mentionned before that we can see in this video that Kiba uploaded:

-5C>6D>wjB>wjC works which might mean that we can maybe have no gaps at all if we do afterwards w5A. Best would be if wjC>w5C had no gap.

-Air command grab only provides a soft knockdown which makes the oki off it not that great.

-Corner wolf grab>2B still works.

-BrjC looks like a viable meaty option.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The combo done was started with an N starter so Isa (the Taokaka player) didn't tech because of anything related to hitstun decay.

I would say that it actually looks like Mondlicht's untechable time was roughly divided by half however, if the opponent comes in contact with the corner, it wallsticks and becomes fully untechable (so far, I've never seen anyone tech before touching the ground. I might be wrong mind you.).

This is probably the biggest nerf we have.

 

Yup. The wallsticking had me a bit perplexed at first, but your assessment is reasonable. Probably going to end up being something like that. This would also explain why Valkenhayn players aren't using the midscreen tk.214B routes (and not just a few of them, NONE of them are using them). I've mostly been seeing our standard midscreen BnB off of N-starters, which is odd.
 

Few other thoughts:

-About Rozen, I first thought that it was an important nerf but it actually allow us to corner carry from human mode without burning any wolf gauge. It also allows us to combo with his throw without using wolf gauge for a decent corner carry so the pros in my opinion outweighs the cons.

 

Yes, exactly. It's basically a corner carry trade-off for better wolf-gauge conservation. 

 

-Optimized corner damage: Mondlicht's nerf and the fact we have less time to hit with it would also mean that 2C>tk214B>CT doesn't work anymore. If we consider it this way, the only reliable ways to combo into CT would be 6B(1) FC and Corner throw>CT which indirectly nerf it and Valk's potential damage output.

 

Our CT was never particularly useful anyways, so I don't mind this. At least Corner Throw > CT should still be there, which has always been our best way to utilize CTs mid-combo.

 

-If wjC is indeed faster, it would mean that the IAD wjB>wjC route isn't character specific anymore which is quite useful.

 

 

Or...well....we'll see....

 

I'll leave that aside until I get some form of confirmation. 

 

 

-5C>6D>wjB>wjC works which might mean that we can maybe have no gaps at all if we do afterwards w5A. Best would be if wjC>w5C had no gap.

 

 

5C > 6D > w[j.B > j.C] has always worked due to the geschwind cancel height increase. Not sure what you're trying to say here. 

 

 

-Air command grab only provides a soft knockdown which makes the oki off it not that great.

 

 

Yeah, the oki is very poor. But that's okay. It's not even really a command grab anymore either, just a regular throw that he can do in wolf mode. I think this was a fair change. The command grab was a bit redundant.

 

 

Overall, we got a slightly weaker version than 1.0 Valk but if we consider the nerfs most of the other characters had, 2.0 Valk might be better matchup-wise than in 1.0. It's definetely obvious that he's much better than his 1.1 counterpart but figuring out whether he's better than 1.0 Valk completely depends of how much the matchups will change.

 

 

Hit the nail on the head, yes. I definitely agree that from what we've seen he's better than 1.1 Valk, and weaker than 1.0 Valk. Somewhere in the middle.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

5C>6D>wjB>wjC got a gap between wjB and wjC. If wjC is faster, we don't have a gap anymore.

I did a mistake though. I just tested it with a friend and actually, in 5C>6D>wjB>wjC>w5C, there is no gap between wjC and w5C on normal block. Though, IB does create a gap that allow the opponent to DP out of it. If wjC hits closer to the ground, we might not have a gap even with IB.

Anyway, you might wonder: "Yeah but what's the point with wjB>wjC still working from geschwind ? Any player who know the matchup will blow you before wjB even comes out." and you're absolutely right if you use it during pressure.

However, I'm certain that you ended up playing troublesome matchups like Nu where they can do stuff like IAD backwards>jD>2D/6D where they do jD to catch you going in from the ground and if jD whiff, they do 2D/6D to catch you out of the air once they land.

Well, 3C>6D>wjA/wjB actually blow up that kind of thing and it's something that I use quite often.
That's why being able to have an option to blow up DPs with this kind of neutral tool is a good thing in my opinion.

Also, mind telling me your thoughts on IAD wjB>wjC ? Always thought that the reason it was character specific was due to the fact that wjC stopped momentum.

I agree with you on one point though, having Valk's crazy high/low mixup back is much better than having the command grab. It didn't really feel necessary before and we had no OSes based on it. Well, as long as the wolf gauge was well managed at least.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Do you guys know if there's a meaningful oki difference between ...5B>2C>jBABBC and ...5B>5C>jBABBC mid screen? I'm wondering because, since 5C does more damage than 2C now, I'm considering just using it every time instead of character-specific.

 

I always wondered because 5C doesn't float as high. So in theory there'd be less time for oki. But in practice it hasn't seemed consequential to me.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Hey guys ive been meesing arround with valkenhayns h236C and found a combo path for midscreen i liked a lot and been getting pretty good dmg since the damage proration isnt as bad

h236C>4D>w(jB>jC) etc and ive captured a vid, its a simple combo but i got good dmg lemme know what you think

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Do you guys know if there's a meaningful oki difference between ...5B>2C>jBABBC and ...5B>5C>jBABBC mid screen? I'm wondering because, since 5C does more damage than 2C now, I'm considering just using it every time instead of character-specific.

 

I always wondered because 5C doesn't float as high. So in theory there'd be less time for oki. But in practice it hasn't seemed consequential to me.

 

 

I tested both and I don't see a meaniningful oki difference. Using 5C gives you a little more corner carry, but by little I mean extremely miniscule and nothing significant.

 

 

https://youtu.be/nDIdPMl-H9I

Heres the link to the vid lemme know if its "ilegal" to post vids here :/ i hope not

 

I'm not fussed so it's ok. I never thought about using 236C > 4D wj.B so that's pretty cool.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.

×