[CPE] µ12 General Discussion

[KonannFriends]

Any advice on arakune. I keep getting rekt by them. 

But I will say that I hadn't fully understand him until I looked at his dustloop. I knew his clouds gave his curse meter but I hadn't even noticed if they we're using them. so That Could Be a big part of it

I think I just don't know what I should be doing. Its seems like chasing him is useless it's allows him to maneuver and counter.

But when I zone I think he gets to play his game to easily 

After going to his training mode I see that he has a kinda sweet spot where the spiders can't hit you. But then I saw the ground spikes hit in places the spiders cant. So then I noticed that you can tell which one he does by his animation.

 

His 2c was weird for Me. Its not safe on block but sometimes I could punish or I would get hit by 5a mash...   thinking maybe frame advantage, disadvantage changes depending on the range.

I always blocked his floating bug high but I didnt know it was high. Now I see why when I'm cornered they use 6d the wait and when I stand high they 2c . Kinda like a fake unblockable I guess.

I feel like me actually sitting down and thinking about this helped but I think incorporating this knowledge into a match is going to be difficult. 

So I guess what I'm asking is 

What is my goal? Its seems like a knock down means nothing to him since he can teleport or counter assault. They refuse to block Tbh.

 

 

[bakahyl]

nice midscreen combos from HH

 

 

 

 

[Shinki]

Sorry to revive an old thread, but I think it gains new relevance now with CP Extend being released on Steam, so I would like to also add my two cents as a new player.

For the new generation of Steam players, we basically had to go from CSE straight into CPEX, and the changes are bewildering. Unlike the console players, who got a long period of time to enjoy CP Mu with properly functioning Steins, we never got to enjoy that and we didn't get a chance to properly abuse the "laser fortress" before it was taken away.

In the earlier part of this thread, some identified "laser fortress" as oppressive/difficult to deal with/annoying, which is probably right. However, there could be a better way to fix that rather than entirely dismantling a character's playstyle. Regardless of whether CPEX Mu is good or bad, the changes to how Steins work are too radical and alienated a lot of Mu's older playerbase that enjoyed using her as a zoning character. The ones who still stayed had to go through a painful relearning process and give up on beloved old tactics.

Instead, they could have implemented something like a Stein/Azure meter that would run out if she does too many consecutive Stein sets, and thus create a gap in the fortress. I think this would be a less disruptive fix, and could integrate well into the game's mechanics, seeing how some characters have drive-specific meters already.

I watched quite a bit of CPEX match videos, and I notice that people hardly even use Habakiri or Totsuka, which are supposed to be something like Mu's signature moves? If you compare Mu to other characters, then the first thing that makes her stand out is Steins and Stein interaction. Mu's signature feature is "supposed to be" the ability to put Steins on the field and later make use of them with interaction specials. This is what made her unique. But when you barely even see people using the character's signature move, you can tell that something is wrong.

Also, I wanted to address this bit:

On 4/7/2015 at 11:12 AM, C0R said:
->drive startup is more than understandable, otherwise she would have infinite blockstrings with stein gatlings, definitely still good

Naturally, I respect C0R's opinion as one of the best players, but with all due respect it's difficult to agree with this. The argument here is basically that adding more delay on Steins was necessary to compensate for the ability to cancel into C normals, but nobody asked for Steins to be C-cancelable to begin with. It was an uninvited change that carried a bear-handed fix to "balance" it. I was quite content with canceling Steins into Habaya/SoD/Origins as appropriate, in fact I would rather cancel into Habaya than 5C, because Habaya doesn't extend Mu's hurtbox and also has a nice bonus of destroying enemy projectiles.

I hope that Arcsys comes to their senses, and gives Mu her old tools back in the next release. Tokotachi does look great, but I also would like to see more Totsuka and more utility from Steins in neutral.

Sorry again if this topic feels dead and beaten, I just wanted to express myself. Thank you.

[pochp]

Hello, don't worry about reviving this, it's nice to have activity here every now and then.

I understand your concerns with the changes, and I'll try to explain them in a way you can appreciate them instead, I hope. That said, she is weaker in CPE than most previous versions, but things are looking better in CF. Also, you're far from being the only one alienated, a lot of players here and in Japan have been using her less, playing other characters, or even just started focusing on other games more.

Azure gauge? not a terrible idea, but I think as a matchup it's already a lot to take in, from an opponent's perspective, if they have to learn how stein works, how they orient themselves, the timings, the cancels you can do from them. It would be a lot to take in (in addition to everything else about the matchup, and a hundred other characters). Playing the laser fortress didn't feel great for me, it was like "I'm going to just do this, my opponent probably doesn't know how to deal with it, so it doesn't feel as much like what I enjoy doing in a fighting game, more like 2 people playing a single player game. Then again, if I'm not doing it, I kinda feel like I'm playing sub-optimally, which goes against how you should play a fighting game." The way I felt steins were used in CP and before was just "I'm going to do this rather safe thing, opp has to deal with the shot that will come, and then it provides me with a resource for my special moves." Now in CPE it requires a bit more decision making, as it's either you set a normal stein which doesn't do much but still helps your specials, OR a charged stein, which is a bit riskier to do, but provides better reward (more range, better tracking, more blockstun). Also, I guess in a way laser fortress kind of coming back in the next game with a gauge, but it's just the Overdrive heh (od recovers faster, better for our character)

About Habakiri and Totsuka use, I think the changes were appropriate. They were just two VERY strong tools in previous versions, so you kind of just did them. Now it's more of a thing you'd apply in matchups, or if you're trying to call out something specifically, or have a set up. They are definitely still useful, but since the uses are more specific, you'll see a big difference depending not only on the matchup being played, but also on the player using them. Let me give you some examples :
Habakiri:
-when multiple steins are on the opponent in pressure, totsuka blockstun would be unreliable, where as habakiri will most likely surprise them because of the multi-hit.
-when a stein is on your opponent in pressure, and on top of them (in the corner). If you do totsuka they might be able to jump, but with habakiri both will keep them in blockstun, although less total then totsuka.
-At neutral, you have no other decent fullscreen option, and the knockdown it gives you is good enough (if you're too far to combo), if you're fighting another zoner.
Totsuka:
-I wouldn't use this as much as in other matchups against Azrael (growler), Hakumen (void), Amane/Tao/Valk/Hazama/Bang (too much mobility), Nu (get hit out of startup). It still has uses in those matchups though.
-Great in pressure (more on this later)

About C cancel normals, I think the intention of the change was to make steins more useful for offense. This isn't necessarily  what anyone playing her asked for, but honestly it feels nice by now. She's probably weak in CPE because they weren't sure how strong these changes would make her exactly. Let me list some uses, perhaps there's some you hadn't considered.
-j.Xd j.2c to bait anti-airs (delays your fall, they whiff, you're in. you're also plus on block if they respect. best case their anti air is crouching, or they miss an air to air and you get a big combo). This often lets you get in without a setup and not that hard of a read/guess, which is something a lot of characters have a tool, and she's been lacking for a while. It also lets you do the following...
-do this string on normal block (midscreen) : 2b 5d 5c 6b 6c 2d > then either 236d if 6b was blocked, or max charge sword of decimation on hit. Unless they have a specific tool, the place to disrespect this would be after the first 2b, but people don't recognize that the first time, so not only do you get a somewhat safe mixup into pressure reset, you get your opponent to start mashing which makes your stagger pressure so much better. You can also vary it by doing things like 2b 2c 5d 6b 5c 6c 2d etc, to make the frame trap and mashable gap be around different normals, but that one is weaker to barrier. Once you start playing around with this, you see there is a lot of room for creativity and adapting things to your opponent.
-another example of a string would be (corner) 2b 5d 5c 236a > adjust to how they defended. On barrier block you're pretty plus (depending on spacing) so you can dash in and do pressure with that 5d shot coming in mind. On normal block you're close to even, so people generally try to stick a normal out or jump, so doing 5c SoD here can give you great rewards. If they jump they generally have to block the projectile in the air, so you dash in, make them block some more and eat their barrier gauge (which they lose a lot faster in this game btw).
-against people that don't know what to do, just running something like 2b 5c 5d 5c 6c 6d 236d is not bad, they'll tend to jump into it and you can reset pressure. Once people know how to be bold against it, it's not that great anymore however.

A few other notes, canceling into habaya isn't great now, because they've increased the recovery a lot, I feel, and it's counterhit state. The DP was nerfed too, both in reward and how the guard point on it works. SoD was also nerfed in the sense that getting a midscreen counterhit doesn't lead to a combo anymore. Cancelling into these exclusively (and jumps) would be kind of lacking. I know you mean the old versions, but still, those are the changes...

As a closing note, having played this version for a while now, the things that make me sad are kinda different. tbh I didn't care much for the nerfs until I realized some other characters still had some crazy good tools and options.
-losing j.2c momentum stop really hurts the offense. No easy throw-whiff tool. Loses mixup off j.b (j.b j.2c/j.b land throw/low)
-low average damage. Feels rough this game, where some other characters can win off a few hits either because of damage (nu, azrael, tager) or because of the mixup they can run from it (carl, valk, relius, izayoi)
-awkward corner carry. a lot of combos force a sideswap, so either you take your corner carry or you lose a lot of damage.
-awkward knockdowns. You rarely get something super safe unless you sacrifice damage, like 6c, or the old j.2c j.d airdash safejump/j.2c j.d j.236a? I can't even remember it's been too long heh. In this one, ending in j.2c j.d gives you barely enough time to meaty a 2a, so its just not as solid.

 

Anyway things look good and fun in CF.

[Shinki]

Thank you for the detailed reply, I will try to incorporate these patterns into my gameplay. I knew of the j.*d j.2c trick from watching a video of your matches vs RYO. CF looks worrying with change notes like "ビーム: 発生時間微増". Hence I hope that in the next release (i.e. whatever comes after CF) they will finally realize that the game already has enough rushdown characters and ruining a unique character to get yet another of those wasn't a good idea. I want Mu to have her indirect attack options and screen control.

[KonannFriends]

I used to like mu in cp. And didnt like that changes at first myself. But after playing cpex along time. It just works for her. I miss spamming steins a bit but other than that cpex mu is much more fun. The only nerf that i think she didnt deserve was airdash cancelling steins. It kinda hurt her ability to attack and move all at once. I think with the slower startup and range nerfs steins would have balanced. The only thing i see or feel that hurts her nuetral is not being able to opt to safely airdash after placing an aerial stein. Now you always have to challenge with a c normal or block if the opponent is close instead. That is the only thing i wish she would be back. I think people often forget how useful that was.

But thing is ussually the risk reward on challenging is in your favor since j2c ch leads to a huge punish

[Shinki]

I don't think that Mu "deserved" any nerfs at all. It's entirely arbitrary and up to developer biases. My impression is that someone in charge of character movesets left the team and someone else took their place, bringing different ideas. This new person didn't like Mu's design and decided to rework the entire character. A change like this is not merely a nerf, because it actually changes the character's nature.

In CSE I could use delayed Stein shots and Habakiri to control opponents from far away, but now it seems that Mu's only way to attack is to run upfront and hit them with a normal. This feels very one-dimensional. Old Habakiri was pretty much equivalent to Sword Iris, and now it barely makes a difference. It is too slow to hit people before they move out of the way, and while in the past actives made up for it, now they are tiny, and it seems hitbox size was reduced as well (not sure).

With major changes like these, you need at least to release followup patches to balance it out, but to my knowledge CPEX didn't receive any. Did something similar happen to any other characters? (I mean the Stein startup/range/cancel option changes, not Habakiri.)

Re: Gauge, it would be lenient and recover fast, so there is no real need to keep track of it. Here is how I can see it working:

1. Enough energy to set at least 4 Steins in rapid succession.
2. After setting a Stein there is a bit of cooldown (30-40 frames) during which the gauge doesn't recover.
3. When it begins to recover, it does so quite fast; something like 1.5-2 seconds to refill the entire gauge (20-30f to recover enough for one Stein).

This way opponents don't need to care about keeping track of it (other than a few rare edge cases), all they need to know is that she can't create infinite lockdown.