[XRD] Sin Kiske Gameplay Discussion "Playing with Poles"

[Zephyrion22]

Here are some troll wake-up mixups out of 2D/236K midscreen  knockdown. They kinda work against characters with slower wake-ups (i.e Elphelt/Sin) or against people sleeping on you.The sweep has more untech time, making the setups tighter/better, if you're ready to forsake the damage.

 

So you do 2D/236K>microdash jump forward and then

 

- late air backdash jH>j214S or j.P(whiff)>2K cross-up overhead or low, the high option can be DPed/backdashed, but not mashed out of, but the low can be mashed out easily

 

- early air backdash>jD>j214S : fake  cross-up overhead, can be mashed out so don't overuse it

 

-early airbackdash >earliest jD(whiff)> 2K : troll mixup, easiiy mashed out of, but the glide effect will make you land on one side or another depending on how you time your moves. It's bad but it's weird enough you can surprise people with it, especially if they expected the normal j.D

 

-late air backdash YRC>j.K. Only legit and consistent one out of them all : This one is really good when you have your back to the corner for the sideswap. The YRC turns this into safe-jump thanks to the gliding effect, and sometimes lets you see a Blitz/backdash that you can stuff accordingly. if they respect, you have the classic empty low/j.D double overhead mixups out of it.

 

-early air backdash >YRC>j.H>j214S : fake cross-up. This one is an oddball. Safe-jumps/forces most of the DPs to whiff if done early. for it to work, you'll need to YRC at a specific time so that the j.H auto-corrects to face the other direction to grant you a cross-up j.H that will connect with j214S. The j.H gets cross-up protection if you do it safe-jump, so you'll have to play with the timings to either eat reversals or get the cross-up. The j.214S will still ignore cross-up protection if you slightly delay it (still comboes out of jH). A good gimmick to psych them up if they don't know about it !

 

-slightly delayed air backdash>YRC>jK(whiff)>2K : fake cross-up low, instead of the usual cross-up safe jump. Reactable if you expect it, but you have a lot of watch, so this works surprisingly often. You'll be out of throw range when you do this, so reversal throws are not possible here.

 

The cross-up/non cross-up are reactable, but the YRCs and the high/low layers make it that much harder to disrespect you on wake-up, and still make this harder to guard than classic mixups. As usual with this kind of setup, get ready to bait the Blitzes and backdashes when using the safe-jumps, and don't rely too much on this kind of mixup. The less you use them, the more efficient they become !

[chzchan]

Those are pretty neat. Wonder if they'd also work out of doing 214K[6] and then delayed air back dash or the ones that have the delayed parts.

An another note I have a question about what to do in situations where the opponents has a burst and your back is to the corner. So let's say you either DP or somehow poke the opponent out of their pressure (and you are not close enough to end with 2D), how do you prevent the opponent from bursting you back into the corner without meter?

I have actually been having a hard time with this in general, especially after a successful DP since you need to dedicate 5000 calories to get the knockdown if you hit them standing and don't get a CH. This means that if they burst you into the corner, you will not have enough food to get a knockdown out of a non-CH DP a second time.

Hell, just people bursting when they see the food bar is yellow or red completely destroys Sin. Bursts are Sin's worst nightmare when he is doing his specials during combos outside of Beak Driver loops. I'd say that the visual indication is actually a subtle nerf to Sin rather than a simple aesthetic change or quality of life fix.

[Valas Phoenix]

Well, usually they give up bursting on that when they get huge damages from certain starters and burst on those (2HS, 5D in the corner, 214SCH>236[HS] in the corner ecc), if they want to play it smart you just have to wait to use big consuming combos, if you watch J.T. you see that you can also win without doing 8000 cal combos, and that's probably one reason he doesn't do flashy things as much as before.

 

If you can't use your DP because you're too low on Cal to get a knockdown>214HS, don't use it, barrier>2S>236k works, find an opening and grab them when they get near, try to jump out from the corner or backdash on certain moves, AA them properly when they try some jump in or airgrab them, use the blitz shield. I'm not relying much on Sin's DP most of the time anyway, I either try to block/backdash properly and find some openings.

[Zephyrion22]

Well, usually they give up bursting on that when they get huge damages from certain starters and burst on those (2HS, 5D in the corner, 214SCH>236[HS] in the corner ecc), if they want to play it smart you just have to wait to use big consuming combos, if you watch J.T. you see that you can also win without doing 8000 cal combos, and that's probably one reason he doesn't do flashy things as much as before.

 

If you can't use your DP because you're too low on Cal to get a knockdown>214HS, don't use it, barrier>2S>236k works, find an opening and grab them when they get near, try to jump out from the corner or backdash on certain moves, AA them properly when they try some jump in or airgrab them, use the blitz shield. I'm not relying much on Sin's DP most of the time anyway, I either try to block/backdash properly and find some openings.

 

Nice advice here, just adding there that bursts are kinda slow in GG, so if you know their burst habits ( like do they burst early on in combos to avoid damage, or burst at a specific point in your combo to force you to RC to bait it, or do they burst late to force you to stay at a low calorie level) you can bait their burst in various ways : you barely have time to react to their burst gauge depleting and inputting your guard/jump cancel guard or RC guard to kill their burst and either get optimal confirms for free on early bursts, or get your knockdown and refill on late bursts. Of course, if they get unpredictable with it, might as well play it safe with smaller combos into pressure.

 

I feel the same about Sin's DP. If you REALLY REALLY need to DP without having a lot of  calories though, you can spend your meter and do 623S>RC hold 4>2D>hold 4 214H> this will kill bursts that are not specifically timed to beat it, and even if they do burst right, you won't be in trouble because of being low on calories, and if your DP is blocked, it's your turn to pressure. It's only trading calorie meter for tension though, so I don't really recommend it unless you don't see another solution available.

 

To answer the question about the setups I posted, they do work off Leap K, but the different wake-up timing means you'll have to play around both your Leap directional input and airdash and YRC timing. microdash jump only requires you to time the airdash correctly !

[chzchan]

One of the problems is that I'm not doing big hungy combos. I usually end up at around 6-7 kcal before I get a confirm be it in neutral or actually opening someone up since I tend to use food in neutral a lot. Just doing 236K > 236H so I can eat afterward puts me at around 3-4 kcal which is absolutely awful if someone bursts before I get to eat and that happens all the time.

 

I guess I should just try ending with 236K instead, but it is still awful when people know to burst when you are low on food and you can't do much about it.

 

Also another question. If you are in the red zone or have an empty food gauge, what do you do in neutral or pressure now that the opponent doesn't need to respect anything? I usually fall back and become defensive looking for opportunities to grab, blitz shield, or poke out of pressure to end with 2D, but that really just plays into the opponent's hands, especially since Sin's neutral becomes complete garbage without food and he loses his DP.

 

What are the best blockstrings to do if I want to eat without a knockdown if I am slightly low on food (3-5 kcal) and know I won't open the opponent up? I also find myself in this situation as well. I have tried doing things like f.S > 5H(2) > 236H > 214H or f.S > 236H > 214S > 214H if I have more than 3 kcal. Pretty awful idea unless you have 25 meter, but I just feel so uncomfortable with 5 kcal or less regardless of what direction the current match's momentum is flowing.

[edollarports]

For the first part: It happens. Just roll with it. Being able to manage with low food is part of food management.

 

For the second part, Sin is weaker without food but he's not garbage. Sin's normals are all right and anything into a knockdown will bring you back.

 

As far as meterless eating? Just eat whenever you feel like it, at any food level. Don't let your opponent catch on is all. Your opponent has too many options to consider to always be ready to snipe you when you're having a snack.

[shadow_nobody]

When sin doesn't have any Meater left he's not completely useless he still has some really good normals. 

When you run out your opponent will definitely start being more aggressive so look out for that, but you in no way need to resort only to defense because this results in narrow minded neutral.

Obviously what I'm going to say is pretty obvious and basic, but you shouldn't be afraid just because you can't BD or HB.

 

 

When you're low what I usually look for offesively:

 

Far S/2S- On block just wait or Leap in. On hit apply more pressure with normals, inch your way closer to get a hit into knockdown, or leap in for more pressure.

 

j.6hs- A great way to control space while not approaching and leads perfectly to pressure on block or a combo ending in eat.

 

6p-Look for that anti-air! Far S/2S are still great space control normals on the ground and I find a lot of characters would rather try to approach from the air so this is your chance to either force them to FD/back off/get hit. 

 

3K>6hs- You're + so just another pressure tool to get the throw or hit in.

 

Air throw/Ground throw- You're going to need these a lot if you want to open someone up reliably on the ground without your normal pressure tools. Remember to be aware what you can IB in the air that will allow you to throw the opponent.

 

Leap- Even if you don't have access to a lot of specials there is still one you can do without any calories. Leap, leap, leap. 

Blockstrings into leap can take you far as long as you're not obvious with it. Always doing 5S/2S/2D>Leap>J.s/j.h whatever is a good way to get air thrown or AA'd. Mix it up with 214P[4] to bait and then using j.6h to bring them right back in or airdashing to try and open them up. Other options like empty Leap into throw are great.

 

YRC -  you're thinking why not just Eat yrc? And thats because a lot of characters won't give you the time or space to even get eat out and you'll find yourself either YRCing to early or getting hit out of it. However YRC in neutral to react to whatever the opponent does is an amazing way to get a hit, end in knockdown, and eat. YRC air throw is pretty important especially for sin.

 

Defensively I just look for blitz, FD, IB airthrow, Dead Angles. If you have to burst remember that the opponent will try to airdash in so be mindful of that when thinking about eating after burst.

[chzchan]

I wish 6H wasn't so godawful for pressure despite it being +2 on block. Like +2 would be awesome if Sin had at least one fast normal that hit crouching and also had decent range.

If the opponent blocks 6H and I don't have food, I always get smacked out of f.S/2S since they are both 9f startup and they don't even need to Just Block. Then 6H knocks you just far away enough for both your punches and kicks to whiff.

If I have food I can scare them into not mashing because there is a gap between 6H and both 236H/236K that will get me a delicious CH, but if I have no food there is absolutely nothing to fear.

[shadow_nobody]

What normals are exactly beating yours? 

Even if 5k,2p,2k whiff if the opponent does nothing they'll generally beat any button press the opponent has to make. 

 

It's like how vs Leo when you end with slide you don't want to do 2k because he can just 5k right over it and hit you, but if you do 5k instead it'll hit him trying to hit a button.

[chzchan]

Slayer's 2K destroys Sin even when he doesn't low profile normals with it. Sol's f.S and 2D trade and sometimes beat my buttons out if I don't hit my normal as quickly as possible. Same with Ky's 2D. Venom's 2S and 2D also blow things up.

These are all without IB.

[shadow_nobody]

Better start getting the timing of your button presses down then so you don't get beat because Sol Far S loses to basically each button press. 2D will be beat by 2k, 2s, 2d take your pick And 5k it won't be hit by 2d.

 

Vs slayer you should technically beat his 2k seeing as yours will come out first, but if he goes for 2k you can also just wait and hit your button after his because his will probably be too far to hit you as well.

Same with Ky's 2d if people are low profiling your 5s stop doing it and do 2s instead. Hit your button earlier too.

[Valas Phoenix]

@chzchan, 

 

I suggest you pick some of your matches and post them in the gameplay critique thread, it's much more easy for us to give you advice based on what we can see rather than what you tell us from time to time   I mean, from what I can see based on your questions it seems you have difficulties in managing your Cals when you are at 5000 cal and below (5000 cal are enough to play and go for a knockdown or get enough space to eat most of the time anyway) and other issues with bursts, normals.

[Robawtninja]

Great points about fighting w/o calories. A few things I'd like to add are mostly dependent on your tension meter, if you have any. 

• YRC is gonna be your friend here but gotta use it wisely. A cheeky method of sneaking an eat is to get space YRC > Eat > YRC. Slowdown will definitely throw them off the first time so use it really sparingly. f.S into eat is another cheeky way to eat as well.
• At this point your opponent is going to be playing very reactionary, unless they're no paying attention. If you eat, then they'll attack. Take note if your opponent has slowed down then that's what they're scouting for. Go ahead and eat in front of their face to bait them to attack and YRC in the middle to punish their attempt to punish your eat. It's slightly risky but if you know their method of punishing then it shows that you're in control of the opponent even if you have 0 calories. 
• Normals into super/specials is still good. If you can force them to block a VD super then you're good to eat. Many Sin players forget that Sin can still do specials and finish before going hungry. f.S into charged BD won't get you hungry until you recover. You can force them to block BD and then RC > Eat. Another neat application is doing 2K > Elk hunt > YRC before active frames and grab. It works essentially like a tick grab because of the low blockstun of 2K and Elk Hunt having to go through a certain amount of startup frames before becoming active.

If you have no calories and no meter, then get ready for a good ole scrappin'. But stay vigilant and strong and make good use of his awesome normals. 

[chzchan]

Better start getting the timing of your button presses down then so you don't get beat because Sol Far S loses to basically each button press. 2D will be beat by 2k, 2s, 2d take your pick And 5k it won't be hit by 2d.

 

Vs slayer you should technically beat his 2k seeing as yours will come out first, but if he goes for 2k you can also just wait and hit your button after his because his will probably be too far to hit you as well.

Same with Ky's 2d if people are low profiling your 5s stop doing it and do 2s instead. Hit your button earlier too.

 

Big problem with expecting Slayer's 2K to whiff or any character's normals to whiff before hitting a button is that is 100% dependent on the distance you were from the opponent beforehand. Just like with 236K, there isn't a constant distance that you are pushed back, but your non-S normals will still whiff on crouchers.

 

If you are at +2 and you use 2S, Slayer's 2K will still hit your 2S out of startup without needing to low profile it like it does with f.S. Just look at the data. Even if it is perfectly timed after making them block 6H or 236K (in early active frames) the opponent has a 7 frame window to trade with the 9f startup moves f.S and 2S and Slayer's 2K has 6 frame startup. It happens all the damn time.

 

I probably should just record some matches and upload them.

[shadow_nobody]

If you're that worried just back off, jump etc. Mix up your buttons and moves if you're going for the same thing every time the opponent is just going to catch on. Learn what distance you're at and the distance of your opponents normals and know when they'll whiff you'll be surprised unfortunately there is no end all be all to the situation so you gotta make do.

[chzchan]

But the entire point of this was to find out what to do when I have no food. There are no options that the opponent needs to respect during Sin's pressure and backing off when you have no food leads to death unless you have meter.

 

That's also a huge problem I am having. Getting respect. If the opponent disrespects you in the right ways like jumping at the right times in your pressure so that your confirms don't get a combo or just general vertical navigation in neutral, Sin just doesn't work that well. It always feels like you need to rely on your opponent to not be thinking in order for anything to work because if they get past the fear of his damage, Sin really isn't that scary and can be easily bullied during the stages where you are supposed to be conditioning your opponent. Then there's the opponents who cannot be conditioned or are always random that are a nightmare to fight.

[Valas Phoenix]

To gain respect you should:

-Do unpredictable things

-Punish every attempt to DPs, mashings, wake up throws ecc

-Convert properly some damage from any starter if you have the possibility to do so

-Put on the line your Range, is one of your strong points after all

-Burst bait them and punish them

 

 

Show your opponent you know your stuff by doing all the above things properly most of the times, if you do so you can probably gain respect, if the opponent knows the match up is easier/harder up to his personal experience (that's why Sin vs Sin can be quite difficult to play if you're on the same level).

[Zephyrion22]

Big problem with expecting Slayer's 2K to whiff or any character's normals to whiff before hitting a button is that is 100% dependent on the distance you were from the opponent beforehand. Just like with 236K, there isn't a constant distance that you are pushed back, but your non-S normals will still whiff on crouchers.

 

If you are at +2 and you use 2S, Slayer's 2K will still hit your 2S out of startup without needing to low profile it like it does with f.S. Just look at the data. Even if it is perfectly timed after making them block 6H or 236K (in early active frames) the opponent has a 7 frame window to trade with the 9f startup moves f.S and 2S and Slayer's 2K has 6 frame startup. It happens all the damn time.

 

I probably should just record some matches and upload them.

 

Regarding 6H I explained on the wiki that, Like Elk hunt,2K and 2P, The advantage is not good enough for you to always go for pressure resets. for example, Venom's 2S is 6 frames, so it will beat your + 2 if you go for your 9f moves. same for Elk Hunt 2P or 5K because against Sol's 5K is 3 frames for first hit and 5 frames for the 2nd, so it will likely trade or win against your options. They can also easily jump away/backdash in the "at least 3 frames hole" between the 6H/236K and your next hit, or just straight out DP you.

     Here is the thing though, Elk Hunt is special cancellable and 6H too ! Are they looking to blow your 6H because they know they can ? Throw your Elk Hunt cancel, get your counter get your almost 200 damage and see if they continue doing so ! are they looking for the jump-out ? Leap or Bull Bash them ! Do they want to backdash ? Kill them with Beak Driver ! Every option I mentioned means a guaranteed refill and possibly big damage and good positioning !

 

      Never forget, frame advantage is rarely ever meant to be used for pressure resets only, especially in Sin's case : it is  meant to be used for conditioning, as it reduces the number of answers they have against you, and let you take advantage of this. You need to first earn their respect with good reads and punishes, and use pressure resets only when you've made sure you scared them from doing anything that isn't blocking.

 

      Of course it's harder to do so with low food meter, so if you feel it's not worth pressing your advantage, you can just use this frame advantage to go back to neutral with a little edge over them. Just backdashing after 6H/Elk Hunt and see what reaction it triggers will definitely help you get more openings, which means less calories used in pressure and more occasions to eat up !

[KentoHardRok]

Maybe its just me but just to touch on having NO food and low on meter. When I close the gap on an opponent its rare that its dependent on special moves, normally my combos start with normals anyway so I still play as aggressive as I would if I did have plenty of food. I just go for a 3 or 4 hit combo ending in 2D>nom nom. I see it as, all I need to do is connect one normal and go into 2D then I can eat. 

I do sometimes follow what someone else mentioned, I go to eat somewhere random to bait their attack, YRC to counter their over confident attack then after hard knockdown eat. Its not that hard to get a hard knock down without specials.

[edollarports]

Random opponents will lose out in a straight damage war :x

 

There is no right time to do anything when your guard bar is cranked 30+% and sin is staring at you, food or no. Nobody sits still during that.

 

[Zephyrion22]

Here is a classic Safe jump OS that I saw Chonari and a few other JP Sin use

 

safe jump j.K/j.S > quickly buffer 623S while still in the air>5K/2K/whatever

 

 If done right, it will give you j.K/j.S into pressure on block and will do a DP on whiff. note that Sin's invulnerability causes all of the classic meterless DP to either clash(if you're not lucky), or get air countered into whatever confirm. It is tighter to do against Sol's DP because of it's stupidly fast startup, and might or might not work against some supers ( generally the very active and/or invincible ones : Ky's R.T.L, Ino's Longing Desperation and others) so it's better to go for a normal safe jump in these cases. This OS is generally useful to deny them the option of DP RCing, or for the times you fear to have miscalculated your jump-in and want to avoid getting thrown or mashed out for whiffing it

 

the mirror to this OS is safe jump

j.K/j.S>quickly buffer S while still in the air>5K/2K/whatever

 

this one is easier and more useful against characters without good meterless DPs, as it denies them the option of backdashing : you can confirm the punish into 236H or 5H depending on positionning and distance. You can also replace the f.S by 236H for bigger damage, but you'll have to do your safe-jump normal below j236H's minimum heignt to avoid whiffing a j236H in front of them

[Destin]

Couldn't you OS in a backdash to avoid sol's dp as well?

[Zephyrion22]

Couldn't you OS in a backdash to avoid sol's dp as well?

 

You can OS with a backdash as well, but the issue with Sol's DP is not that it beats Sin's invul frames : The true problem is that it is so fast that it will catch you if you didn't perfectly time your OS to do a DP/backdash as soon as you land .Any mistake in the extremely tight timing will result in you eating the DP, so might as well play it safe. Chipp's Beta blade is somewhat of an issue too, but the OS works better on him if you properly space your safe-jump so that you don't get hit by the first active frame. Even Judge better half (Elphelt's OD) is not as much as the problem as Sol's DP : the superflash will eat your input and result in a normal safe-jump, like all the other cinematic ODs out there,and all the other classic DPs are relatively easy to beat with the OS due to their slower startup.

 

To sum it up, Volcanic Viper is yet another Sol exception xD

[khmxspider]

anyone made a guide/tutorial on sin? would love to check it out and up my gameplay.

[Zephyrion22]

anyone made a guide/tutorial on sin? would love to check it out and up my gameplay.

 If you're beginning with the character, I've written a basic guide for Sin on the wiki. If you want to upgrade your combos you also  have this ( 1.0 combos but most of them are still valid) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j0gsL4ynXWY

 

still hoping for a recent gameplay tutorial !